keeko
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Post by keeko on Dec 11, 2010 17:11:42 GMT -5
i don't really care for this gun but on the official web boards someone said that it has deeper penetration than all the other SMGs. there is also alot of BS.. any idea? also does bullet penetration act like it did in MW1 & 2? or anyone have useful links applying to this? thanks in advance
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Den
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Post by Den on Dec 11, 2010 17:18:58 GMT -5
The Kiparis does have medium penetration compared to the other SMGs' small penetration.
Bullet penetration hasn't changed much if at all since COD4.
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Post by imrlybord7 on Dec 11, 2010 17:33:29 GMT -5
And it's still the worst SMG in the game! Sounds like a good reward for buying them all.
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battleaxerx
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Post by battleaxerx on Dec 11, 2010 17:34:45 GMT -5
I don't suppose anyone thinks there needs to be any tweaks to how bullet penetration works from either den's community or treyarch's point of view?
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Dec 11, 2010 18:06:45 GMT -5
The Kiparis does have medium penetration compared to the other SMGs' small penetration. That almost makes it worth using. From what I know, small doesn't penetrate through people while medium does. That's why some people preferred the AK74u over the MP5 in CoD4 - AK74u could hit several people coming down a hallway, where the MP5 had to focus on one at a time. Also, if you add seta cg_brass "0" to your config_mp.cfg, the Kiparis no longer ejects shells, so you're no longer distracted by casings flying between your front and rear sights. That tweak alone made the Kiparis extremely usable for me, especially with a grip (and focusing on the upper chest/neck for recoil-induced headshots).
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Dec 11, 2010 18:17:20 GMT -5
From what I know, small doesn't penetrate through people while medium does. That's why some people preferred the AK74u over the MP5 in CoD4 - AK74u could hit several people coming down a hallway, where the MP5 had to focus on one at a time. This has to do with rifle bullet, not penetration value.
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Dec 11, 2010 18:19:23 GMT -5
This has to do with rifle bullet, not penetration value. Ah, so I was wrong. Thank you. I guess that means the Kiparis is still a second rate SMG (barring the cg_brass 0 tweak).
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Dec 11, 2010 18:22:25 GMT -5
Well, the Kiparis does have rifle bullet. You are right, but the effect is caused by a different variable.
And you are right in saying that the AK-74u in COD4 had rifle bullet as well.
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Dec 11, 2010 18:31:26 GMT -5
Well, the Kiparis does have rifle bullet. You are right, but the effect is caused by a different variable. And you are right in saying that the AK-74u in COD4 had rifle bullet as well. Oh, okay. So the "penetration" value only affects what materials it can shoot through and how much damage is retained. "Rifle bullet" is what effects being able to shoot through multiple people. AK74u (CoD4) and Kiparis both have medium penetration, which allows them to penetrate thicker objects than other SMGs. AK74u (CoD4) and Kiparis both have rifle bullets, which is what allows them to shoot through multiple people, while other SMGs cannot. In light of that, the penetration and rifle bullet of the Kiparis do make it a fairly decent weapon.
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kalar
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Post by kalar on Dec 11, 2010 18:42:13 GMT -5
Interesting. Gives the skorpion a competitor for best akimbo SMG.
If only the hip recoil wasn't so atrocious.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Dec 11, 2010 19:09:30 GMT -5
I don't like your definition of Medium Penetration, but yes.
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acidsnow
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Post by acidsnow on Dec 11, 2010 20:34:14 GMT -5
I don't like your definition of Medium Penetration, but yes. Agreed, I'm getting confused...
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Dec 11, 2010 21:49:34 GMT -5
www.cod4central.com/cod4-weapons-chart.php#penOne bar is small penetration. Two bars is medium penetration. Three bars is large penetration. So to my knowledge, with the SMGs that have medium penetration, they can shoot through things like walls and retain more damage than other SMGs that have small penetration. But "rifle bullet" is the value that lets them shoot through "people." [Edit] Managed to find this other post that explains differences between small, medium, and large penetration (according to how much damage is lost while shooting through certain types of surfaces). cod4source.com/deep-impact-and-bullet-penetration-in-call-of-duty-4Keep in mind this is for CoD4.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Dec 11, 2010 21:54:01 GMT -5
Those things are... wrong. Let me find a post I made on how that stuff works.
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Dec 11, 2010 23:01:54 GMT -5
Those things are... wrong. Let me find a post I made on how that stuff works. Bah. I always wondered how accurate they were. I hope you can find it - something as basic as bullet penetration, I feel a little embarrassed that I don't know exactly how it works.
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Den
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Post by Den on Dec 11, 2010 23:13:40 GMT -5
Those things are... wrong. Let me find a post I made on how that stuff works. Bah. I always wondered how accurate they were. Those were my very very very first charts back when I barely understood anything and had only made the image to show the info to some people I play with. And I used dark blue backgrounds for some reason. Errors and misinformation everywhere.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Dec 11, 2010 23:26:20 GMT -5
What happens is that the bullet's damage at the surface is taken, then it is multiplied by the penetration and surface specific number. (look at the chart below) This is also multiplied by a number for the thickness of the surface. (This is also how angles are taken into effect. The distance through a wall at an angle is greater than when the shot is straight.) If you have Hardened this number is multiplied by 2. There is a minimum percentage (5%?) that the damage will be lowered by if the final damage ends up to be greater than that. At least for COD4. Oh and don't worry about flesh. That is for Campaign dead bodies that exist as scenery.
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Dec 11, 2010 23:44:44 GMT -5
So the advantage of medium penetration over small penetration is being able to penetrate more objects. According to that chart, anything that small penetration can go through (items in the .72 and .32 columns), medium penetration goes through with the same value. So shooting through plastic, rubber, or glass, it doesn't matter if it's a pistol or a LMG.
But gravel and plastic are the "thickest" items that a pistol or SMG (barring the exceptions) could penetrate, whereas medium penetration (assault rifles, the SMG and pistol exceptions), can penetrate things such as wood, rock, brick, and metal....
And only if the small penetration weapon has Deep Impact, FMJ, or Hardened does the entire left side of the "small" chart come into effect (pistols shooting through plaster at x0.12 damage, where assault rifle shoots through plaster at x0.2 damage), plus the x2 modifiers for the penetration perk/attachment.
So the chart shows the basic numbers to multiply by, and for the actual "thickness" of the surface, it's more of a guess? Either way, DI drastically improves penetration ability by adding new materials for small penetration and by doubling the weaponDamage * penetrationValue result before it's multiplied by the thickness factor.
That makes so much more sense. =) Thanks.
[Edit] So that still means that with the Kiparis, you gain a decent penetration advantage over the other SMGs (from medium penetration AND rifle bullet) without having to use Hardened. And even using Hardened on another SMG, the Kiparis would STILL have a distinct penetration advantage.
[Re-Edit] If another SMG used hardened, they would penetrate better than the Kiparis (due to the x2 factor in the equation). If Hardened was thrown in the Kiparis in response, it would again penetrate better. So the Kiparis wins with or without Hardened (unless the MP5K has Hardened while the Kiparis doesn't).
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Post by caboose on Dec 11, 2010 23:47:05 GMT -5
All this talk has confused me a fair bit.
Can someone sum up the facts on the Kiparis?
Does it shoot through thicker walls than other SMG's? Didn't someone say that shooting through people didn't reduce damage on any guns in this game?
Edit: Ninja'd by Aranshada.
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Dec 11, 2010 23:49:08 GMT -5
Funny thing, I was about to quote your post and say that I edit-ninja'd you, and then when I clicked the quote button I saw your edit-ninja.
So the final TL;DR is that the Kiparis has a penetration advantage over other SMGs by having the same penetration as the assault rifle class. That's a good sum-it-up.
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Post by caboose on Dec 11, 2010 23:57:06 GMT -5
I'm a Ninja too. And actually I did read it - that's what confused me.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Dec 11, 2010 23:58:12 GMT -5
And it has Rifle Bullet allowing it to penetrate multiple people.
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Dec 12, 2010 0:00:14 GMT -5
And it has Rifle Bullet allowing it to penetrate multiple people. About that... how well does it penetrate people? I saw a video about MW2 that showed the Intervention penetrating a maximum of 7 people (at least I think it was 7). [Edit] Found the video. It's at 4:04. Here's the link directly to 4:04 in the video.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Dec 12, 2010 0:18:20 GMT -5
So the advantage of medium penetration over small penetration is being able to penetrate more objects. According to that chart, anything that small penetration can go through (items in the .72 and .32 columns), medium penetration goes through with the same value. So shooting through plastic, rubber, or glass, it doesn't matter if it's a pistol or a LMG. But gravel and plastic are the "thickest" items that a pistol or SMG (barring the exceptions) could penetrate, whereas medium penetration (assault rifles, the SMG and pistol exceptions), can penetrate things such as wood, rock, brick, and metal.... And only if the small penetration weapon has Deep Impact, FMJ, or Hardened does the entire left side of the "small" chart come into effect (pistols shooting through plaster at x0.12 damage, where assault rifle shoots through plaster at x0.2 damage), plus the x2 modifiers for the penetration perk/attachment. So the chart shows the basic numbers to multiply by, and for the actual "thickness" of the surface, it's more of a guess? Either way, DI drastically improves penetration ability by adding new materials for small penetration and by doubling the weaponDamage * penetrationValue result before it's multiplied by the thickness factor. That makes so much more sense. =) Thanks. [Edit] So that still means that with the Kiparis, you gain a decent penetration advantage over the other SMGs (from medium penetration AND rifle bullet) without having to use Hardened. And even using Hardened on another SMG, the Kiparis would STILL have a distinct penetration advantage. [Re-Edit] If another SMG used hardened, they would penetrate better than the Kiparis (due to the x2 factor in the equation). If Hardened was thrown in the Kiparis in response, it would again penetrate better. So the Kiparis wins with or without Hardened (unless the MP5K has Hardened while the Kiparis doesn't). Everything is multiplied and because of the Associative Property it doesn't matter when you multiply things. I think there is a default thickness that is equal to 1 which probably translates to a relatively large in game amount like 6 inches or something. That value is then increased for thinner surfaces and decreased for thicker surfaces. The thickness matters A LOT. (ex. Glass is .72, but with its regular thickness you are above the minimum .95 damage reduction limit) When going through people there is no damage reduction. You either go through them (riflebullet=1) or not (riflebullet=0). I'm not to sure about that video, but it really doesn't matter. Another thing. Decimals are truncated meaning they are dropped off (ex. 85.2461237 = 85 and 35.8322345 = 35) before damage is applied to health so a bullet can "disappear" if a wall is too thick or whatever other circumstances. Yes to everything else.
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Dec 12, 2010 0:21:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the added explanation on thickness. I think I finally get it now.
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Post by chip sandwich on Dec 12, 2010 0:47:41 GMT -5
Wow, well, at least there's a reason to use the Kiparis. You'd probably need extendo-mags to be able to make the most of it though. Now if only there were a reason to use the PM63...
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Post by Disgruntled Jigglypuff on Dec 12, 2010 5:00:33 GMT -5
Wow, well, at least there's a reason to use the Kiparis. You'd probably need extendo-mags to be able to make the most of it though. Now if only there were a reason to use the PM63... It looks cool. Well, its only use is to be dual-wielded, but the Kiparis and the Skorpion out-class it in the dual-wield department.
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Post by seph on Dec 12, 2010 9:50:39 GMT -5
Is the Kiparis (dual wield) any good compared to the Skorpion (dual wield)? Is anything dual wielded better than the dual Skorpions?
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Post by caboose on Dec 12, 2010 10:31:44 GMT -5
Scorpion dual wield? Why is that so good?
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Post by chip sandwich on Dec 12, 2010 12:02:32 GMT -5
Scorpion dual wield? Why is that so good? Higher damage at close range, but it's really not that consequential, because any dual wield SMG has a minimum TTK of one firetime (Skorp 40-20, not 50-20, so 3 bullets, others 4 bullets therefore at least one delay required). Dual wielded MACs don't have nearly as much recoil as the others. Kiparis can shoot through people. The PM63 is just an extra 2000 points you need to spend to unlock the Kiparis, but it is oh-so-stylish.
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