asasa
True Bro
fuck
Posts: 4,255 
|
Post by asasa on Dec 23, 2010 18:51:17 GMT -5
Say, for simplicity, you had a gun that was
0/100-100 horizontal
0/100-100 vertical
And 1000 recovery.
What would happen. How long would it take to settle? Is centerspeed in per second? How do they vertical + horizontal variables add?
Would the total be 100, 141, or 200?
Thanks
|
|
aequinox
True Bro
hakuna matata
Posts: 366
|
Post by aequinox on Dec 23, 2010 19:10:13 GMT -5
AFAIK we don't know, other than higher centrespeed means less recoil.
|
|
aranshada
True Bro
But woe betide thine enemies, for thee hath created thine Bullet Hose.
Posts: 231
|
Post by aranshada on Dec 23, 2010 20:43:42 GMT -5
AFAIK we don't know, other than higher centrespeed means less recoil. Bingo. I had some ideas that were based off of recoil and centerspeed being some multiple of degrees (60 recoil being 6 degrees, 1000 centerspeed being 100 degrees per second of recoil recovery), but upon actually doing the math, none of it panned out because I ended up with a Commando that fully recovered from even a full recoil kick before the next shot would have been fired - the result would be a laser, which we all know the Commando isn't. So at this point, we really only know that for recoil, bigger is worse (larger) kick. With centerspeed, bigger is better (faster recovery). Den might have some more accurate knowledge - I remember him saying in another post about the gun idle amount of 40 being an area of 1.6 degrees, but taking considerations for oscillation, an idle amount of 10 was something like 1 degree. But that's idle amount, so who knows. |
|
n1gh7
True Bro
Black Market Dealer
Posts: 11,718
|
Post by n1gh7 on Dec 23, 2010 21:33:02 GMT -5
Most of the values that we know don't have any units so we don't know how they are specifically translated into the game. All we know is how they relate relatively to each other.
With some very specific and controlled testing in COD4 using the mod tools we might be able to derive some values similar to how Den got the info on idling, but...
|
|
|
|
Post by deez on Dec 23, 2010 23:11:16 GMT -5
While we're on the topic of center-speed, I had a quick question about the M16.
Is the +100 center-speed caused by using an ACOG REALLY worth the slower ADS time/higher zoom/sight obscuring caused by using it? I have noticed getting 1-2 bursts more often with the less recoil, but any close to medium range target is almost certainly a deathwish unless I get the jump on them. I've tried using an RDS and I have noticed it being much harder to land two or three shots on any given target.
|
|
phale
True Bro
Posts: 635
|
Post by phale on Dec 24, 2010 0:04:11 GMT -5
If you don't like the ACOG, use the G11. Otherwise, I'd recommend SoH Pro.
|
|
|
|
Post by deez on Dec 24, 2010 0:22:34 GMT -5
It's not that I don't like the ACOG; in fact I love the ACOG, since I've been doing that my KDR with the M16 has jumped from 1.2 to like 2.6 over the course of a week or two. I'm just contemplating whether to replace my ACOG (+100 CS) with a RDS, which allows better vision and ADS time compared to the bulky ACOG. Note: G11 seems like it should be good to me, but for some reason I can't get kills with that dang gun  It feels almost too fast for a burst weapon and I can never correct for a miss. |
|
aranshada
True Bro
But woe betide thine enemies, for thee hath created thine Bullet Hose.
Posts: 231
|
Post by aranshada on Dec 24, 2010 0:27:45 GMT -5
M16 with ACOG should be fine, and SoH pro is definitely useful. Otherwise, slap on SA and pray you can hip fire them - that or be sure that you always have your sights up before they do which would mean no rambo running around- gotta be all sneaky sneaky.
Hell, Warlord with ACOG and Suppressor on M16 would be a pretty nifty quasi-snipe/ghost class.
|
|
|
|
Post by hobbert on Dec 24, 2010 0:58:00 GMT -5
if your using an ACOG on your M16 run Akimbo Pythons and a motion sensor. soon as you see someone with it swap to them and you'll win that gunfight the majority of the time
As much as i hate to say it WoR was doing it and its actually a pretty good strategy..
|
|
|
|
Post by rubionubio on Dec 24, 2010 16:09:57 GMT -5
M16 with ACOG should be fine, and SoH pro is definitely useful. Otherwise, slap on SA and pray you can hip fire them - that or be sure that you always have your sights up before they do which would mean no rambo running around- gotta be all sneaky sneaky. Hell, Warlord with ACOG and Suppressor on M16 would be a pretty nifty quasi-snipe/ghost class. This. Warlord pro is extra nice for this with the extra decoys IMO. Maps like Array and Grid (out in the trees) are perfect for it. Chuck a decoy out and wait for your prey to show itself  |
|
asasa
True Bro
fuck
Posts: 4,255
|
Post by asasa on Dec 26, 2010 20:46:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the answers!
Another one is about recoil
How come the M14 with 80 up and 40 down has much much MUCH more vertical recoil than the FAL at 70 up and 20 down?
Is every 10(1 degree) exponentially worse? Wouldnt the FAL average a higher kick up? 25 versus 20?
|
|
|
|
Post by imrlybord7 on Dec 26, 2010 21:14:24 GMT -5
The FAL would have 25, not 20. But no, the higher value means much more for some reason. Even though one would expect the M14 to kick down approximately 33% of the time, I have never even heard of the M14 kicking down once.
|
|
asasa
True Bro
fuck
Posts: 4,255
|
Post by asasa on Dec 26, 2010 21:23:54 GMT -5
Yeah, I had it wrong.
Fal is 25, M14 20.
|
|
|
|
Post by leviat on Dec 27, 2010 15:45:37 GMT -5
Say, for simplicity, you had a gun that was 0/100-100 horizontal 0/100-100 vertical And 1000 recovery. What would happen. How long would it take to settle? Is centerspeed in per second? How do they vertical + horizontal variables add? Unfortunately, it's not a simple equation. Basically you have three or four variables at play. Here's the stats for the Commando. adsViewKickPitchMin = -30 adsViewKickPitchMax = 60 adsViewKickYawMin = 60 adsViewKickYawMax = -60 adsViewKickCenterSpeed = 1500 adsGunKickReducedKickBullets = 0 adsGunKickReducedKickPercent = 75 adsGunKickPitchMin = 5 adsGunKickPitchMax = 15 adsGunKickYawMin = -5 adsGunKickYawMax = 10 adsGunKickAccel = 800 adsGunKickSpeedMax = 2000 adsGunKickSpeedDecay = 32 adsGunKickStaticDecay = 40 I have no idea what the formula is other than just guessing. I'm thinking the kick speed fights against the center speed, and the units are likely in seconds. I'll play around and see if I can figure some stuff out. |
|
n1gh7
True Bro
Black Market Dealer
Posts: 11,718
|
Post by n1gh7 on Dec 27, 2010 18:06:39 GMT -5
All the GunKick stats reset too fast to have any noteworthy effect.
And CenterSpeed is working all of the time. Just more info.
|
|
|
|
Post by toto on Dec 30, 2010 12:45:03 GMT -5
Ninja edit:
What I originally posted was incorrect, so I removed it to avoid confusion with the findings throughout this thread.
|
|
Den
He's That Guy
Posts: 4,294,967,295
|
Post by Den on Dec 30, 2010 13:00:27 GMT -5
It's way simpler than I expected.
ViewKick is speed times 5.
With 100 straight up absolute viewkick and 500 CenterSpeed, it would take exactly 1.0 second to completely recover.
50 ViewKick and 250 CenterSpeed, 1.0 second to recover.
Double the Center Speed or halve the ViewKick, it becomes 0.5 seconds.
-
Now if we were to deal with angles...
If the Pitch and Yaw were both 100 and CenterSpeed were 500, it would take more than a full second to recover since ViewKick is an XY square compared to CenterSpeed's direct radial movement to the center.
With some triangle stuff going on, the distance covered by 100x and 100y is 1.4142 times that of a flat 100.
Opposite of that is 0.70711 the length. But you gotta distribute that length between both directions - about 0.85.
So if the Viewkick were 85x and 85y with 500 CenterSpeed, it would take almost one full second to recover.
|
|
n1gh7
True Bro
Black Market Dealer
Posts: 11,718
|
Post by n1gh7 on Dec 30, 2010 13:52:13 GMT -5
Den, are you confirming what toto said? If so, I'm not getting how all the numbers fit in. If not, is there a specific formula that you are using?
|
|
|
|
Post by imrlybord7 on Dec 30, 2010 14:08:04 GMT -5
If the guns centerspeed is 5x that of the amount it viewkicked, it would take exactly 1 second for it to recover. From that we could figure out quite a bit.
|
|
Den
He's That Guy
Posts: 4,294,967,295
|
Post by Den on Dec 30, 2010 14:13:44 GMT -5
Den, are you confirming what toto said? If so, I'm not getting how all the numbers fit in. If not, is there a specific formula that you are using? No. |
|
n1gh7
True Bro
Black Market Dealer
Posts: 11,718
|
Post by n1gh7 on Dec 30, 2010 14:15:57 GMT -5
Oh, got it.
|
|
|
|
Post by toto on Dec 30, 2010 14:45:46 GMT -5
Den, are you confirming what toto said? If so, I'm not getting how all the numbers fit in. If not, is there a specific formula that you are using? No, what Den is saying is much, much simpler. To make a more general statement: (5 * viewKick) / Centerspeed = Time to return to centerTo put it a better way to analyze how it would apply to recoil of a certain gun: (FireRate * Centerspeed) / 5 = Maximum viewKick allowed to be able to fully recover from shot firedYou could probably reference this value against all possible viewKick values of any given gun and create a hitmap of some sorts. With some triangle stuff going on, the distance covered by 100x and 100y is 1.4142 times that of a flat 100. Opposite of that is 0.70711 the length. But you gotta distribute that length between both directions - about 0.85. So if the Viewkick were 85x and 85y with 500 CenterSpeed, it would take almost one full second to recover. I'm not sure this is correct, but maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. Use Pythagorean's Theorem and set 100 as the hypotenuse. Assuming the sides of the triangle are the same, then each side would be 70.7, not 85. |
|
Den
He's That Guy
Posts: 4,294,967,295
|
Post by Den on Dec 30, 2010 15:17:49 GMT -5
I expected the same, but I made sure and tested it beforehand. If both X and Y were reduced to 70, the view recovers well before a full second. But when that difference is distributed between the X and Y, the View re-centers almost exactly on one second. The area of a 1.0 second recenter comes out like more of a skewed octagon than a circle.  Actually... wait. Hold on... I can go even greater, up to 0.95 and the view will still recenter before the next shot. It's not a perfect square, but it's very close. Perhaps CenterSpeed handles X and Y speeds separately. |
|
|
|
Post by toto on Dec 30, 2010 16:11:49 GMT -5
I can go even greater, up to 0.95 and the view will still recenter before the next shot. It's not a perfect square, but it's very close. Perhaps CenterSpeed handles X and Y speeds separately. That's...odd. I agree that it seems to use centerspeed to handle the X and Y speeds separately, and if that's the case, then the time to recenter would only depend on the higher of the two values. I don't understand why it's not a perfect square then. It also would explain why when the gun kicks way off center, you get that jerky motion where it seems to return to the center axis, then drop perfectly straight down. I'm assuming you are able to mod the numbers. If it does handle X and Y speeds differently, then you should be able to set X = 20 and Y = 100 (or vice-versa), and it would still take a second to recenter, no? |
|
|
|
Post by duckcall00 on Dec 30, 2010 17:57:03 GMT -5
So... If I wanted to find out how how fast I should fire an M14 Grip I would do...
80(upwards kick) – 40(downwards kick) = 40
40(left kick) – 40(right kick) = 0 (so I don't need this number anymore because it is less than the vertical recoil)
5 * 40(overall vertical recoil/ viewkick or whatever its called) = 200
200 / 1600(center speed) = .125
60 / .125 = 480
So if I wanted no recoil on my M14 Grip i would fire it at 480 RPM.
Correct?
|
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled Jigglypuff on Dec 30, 2010 18:42:32 GMT -5
Let me give it a shot at this.
I will be using the Skorpion's recoil numbers, center speed, and fire time.
The Skorpion's recoil numbers are: 30, 50, 50, 20.
The Skorpion's Center speed is: 1700
with grip its: 1800
The Skorpion's fire time is: 0.08
with RP its: 0.06
Here is my first equation:
X = Average of recoil numbers/ Center Speed
X represents how many seconds it takes for the weapon's recoil to completely recenter.
With the Skorpion, this results in:
X = (30 + 50 + 50 + 30) / 1700
In this situation, X = 0.088
This leads to my second equation, X - Fire Time = Y.
0.088 - 0.08 = Y
Y = 0.008
And now, I am stuck with the number, 0.008. I don't quite know what to do with it yet, but if these equations are applied to higher-recoil weapons, the final result will be larger.
Does this make any sense?
|
|
Den
He's That Guy
Posts: 4,294,967,295
|
Post by Den on Dec 30, 2010 19:27:24 GMT -5
Nope.
Try this.
(CenterSpeed * FireTime) / 5 = View Kick Recovery in Time
(1700 * 0.08) = 136 / 5 = 27.2
(1800 * 0.08) = 144 / 5 = 28.8
And working off of Recovery in Time:
(Highest Possible Viewkick / Recovery in Time) * FireTime = Maximum Necessary Recovery Time
(50 / 27.2) = 1.838 * 0.08 = 0.147 Time
---
Other examples.
M14
(1400 * 0.096) = 134.4 / 5 = 26.88
(1600 * 0.096) = 153.6 / 5 = 30.72
(80 / 26.88) = 2.976 * 0.096 = 0.286 seconds
(80 / 30.72) = 2.604 * 0.096 = 0.25 seconds
FAL
(1400 * 0.096) = 134.4 / 5 = 26.88
(70 / 26.88) = 2.604* 0.096 = 0.25 seconds
|
|
|
|
Post by Corax on Jan 2, 2011 22:15:34 GMT -5
So ...
Maximum Necessary Recovery Time = 5 * Highest Possible Viewkick / Center Speed
Since the Recovery Time is independent of Fire Time, if the Fire Time matches with the Recovery Time, the weapon will have essentially zero recoil because the weapon will be fully recovered. This seems testable.
|
|
|
|
Post by rejectionrole on Jan 2, 2011 23:00:35 GMT -5
So ... Maximum Necessary Recovery Time = 5 * Highest Possible Viewkick / Center Speed Since the Recovery Time is independent of Fire Time, if the Fire Time matches with the Recovery Time, the weapon will have essentially zero recoil because the weapon will be fully recovered. This seems testable. Sure, but in order for a gun with fairly normal/low recoil ~60 to either the left or right and say... 1700 center speed to recover fully after each shot, it can't fire any faster than 340 RPM. Now of course, that's guaranteed laser like accuracy, assuming the gun kicks the maximum amount in the same direction after each shot. |
|
asasa
True Bro
fuck
Posts: 4,255
|
Post by asasa on Jan 3, 2011 16:14:54 GMT -5
Thanks for the help there.
Still doesnt explain why the M14 never kicks down, and why its kick is so much more than the FALs.
Also, by looking at this, it would seem the FAL is vastly superior.. as you can use Dual Mags or another attachment in place of grip, with randomized recoil that can correct itself, yes? The M14 might be predictable, but in all honesty, its simply too much to be predicted... and when it is low, you pull down too much :/.
Both suck, though.. just wondering if the FAL is superior.
|
|
It feels almost too fast for a burst weapon and I can never correct for a miss.
