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Post by psijaka on Nov 16, 2011 12:21:43 GMT -5
 EDIT - this thread is a victim of it's own success and I have broken photobucket's 10GB/month bandwidth limit (on 12 Dec lol). To get around this I am transferring the OP images to Imageshack. Other images will stay on Photobucket, and should reappear 1st Jan 2012. Please be patient.  As in my Black Ops plots, the plots are the result of simulating the firing of 100 ten round bursts. Rounds 1-3 are in green (the first round is always assumed to be on target). Rounds 4-10 are in blue. Kick is assumed to reduce Viewkick by 20% Selected RF plots have been added, but only where testing has verified the rate of fire increase (thanks for your work on this, fred). Attachments will be added as solid data becomes available. Please be patient! Note for Wii players - falufa has discovered that the guns fire at a different rate on the Wii; this will have an impact upon the recoil plots. For more info see denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=3256&page=8Important - Please refer to this excellent thread about the effects of GunKick and variations in how Viewkick is handled, as it may have an impact upon the accuracy of the recoil plots. denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=4708&page=1I'm afraid that I am NOT going to be updating the plots though. I don't think that the overall effect will be great, and I haven't played COD since Dec 2011! Automatic Rifles ![]() img403.imageshack.us/img403/6946/mw3aracrv2a.png [/img]          MK14 plots at different fire rates can be found half way down page 3 of this thread.                                           RIP Black Ops Skorpion  The following chart shows the percentage of 2nd, 3rd and 4th shots that take place when the gun has fully recovered from the kick of the previous round, based upon simulation of 10,000 three round bursts. More to come.  Viewkick, Centerspeed and ROF info from denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3239 (thanks to verccety), and denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3235 (thanks to selarmor) Method:I have assumed that recoil is handled in exactly the same way as in Black Ops (a BIG assumption), as follows: The calculations assume that viewkick is a velocity applied to the gun, and that centerspeed is acceleration applied to the gun to return to the starting point. I have assumed that recoil occurs as a random linear distribution between the limits for vertical and horizontal kick as published in the links above. The centerspeed figure is applied to this distribution; recentering occurring when kick <= centerspeed / 5 x fire time. The recentering is applied to the vertical and horizontal kick separately (there has been some discussion about this on this forum). I have also assumed zero weapon sway at this stage. Further Reading:denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2461 - asasa's "How exactly does centerspeed work?" thread, where the theory is discussed in detail. denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3425 - fred's rate of fire test results (includes test results from other bros) denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=3956&page=1 - wwa's burst fire recoil screen shots. www.modernwarfare3forum.com/topic/15751-theusers-recoil-pattern-series-assault-rifles/ - TheUser's recoil screenshots on the MW3 forum. denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2699 - psijaka's Black Ops Recoil Chart and Plots EDIT
01 Feb 2012 - link to wwa's burst fire recoil screenshots added
24 Jan 2012 - link to falufa's Wii ROF results added; these are on page 8 of this thread
07 Jan 2012 - Warning about different rof on the Wii added - thanks falufa
31 Dec 2011 - AR shots on target chart added.
30 Dec 2011 - MP7 RF plot added, based upon fred's figure of a 9% increase.
12 Dec 2011 - nightmare; exceeded photobucket's 10GB/month limit. OP images transferred to imageshack.
08 Dec 2011 - selected RF plots added LMGs, MP5, P90 all at +25%.
03 Dec 2011 - RF plots removed due to variable rate of fire increase.
02 Dec 2011 - Minor title changes, warning about RF, MPs + grip added
25 Nov 2011 - New versions of all plots agged to tidy up format and make gridlines less intrusive. ARs +/- kick, LMGs +/- kick, SMGs +/- RF +/- kick, MPs
24 Nov 2011 - SMGs + Kick, RF + Kick completed
24 Nov 2011 - ARs + Kick added, SMGs + Kick completed
24 Nov 2011 - Started adding attachments, Kick; ACR kick, PP90,P90,MP7 RF & RF Kick, MP7 Kick
17 Nov 2011 - Corrected AK47, PP90 plots uploaded
17 Nov 2011 - Uploaded new versions of all plots (nobody noticed my deliberate mistake lol)
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 16, 2011 12:39:26 GMT -5
G36's recoil is interesting indeed.. Mainly shoots straight up. Shouldn't be too surprised I guess, since it goes 75 up and 35 left/right/down. Makes me wonder if grip is necessary, since its pretty predictable at least.
-Overall all the ARs(minus the CM) look pretty good
-Ouch at LMGs, minus MK56 and SAW. I'm very interested in seeing the recoil charts w/ grip and kick attachment on them (and possibly every weapon also)
-lol at MP7.
-/= at skorpion. IW totally screwed with this weapon. Recoil, damage, everything.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 16, 2011 12:46:13 GMT -5
I will look at attachments etc, but I want to hold back a bit just to see if these plots are valid.
Feedback from users of the weapons with more unusual recoil patterns would be very welcome - do the weapons behave as shown?
I haven't bought MW3 yet so cannot test myself!
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Post by swoopwithnon4m3 on Nov 16, 2011 12:53:45 GMT -5
You have the PKP listed under Machine Pistols in place of the FMG9.
Also, dat MP7.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 16, 2011 13:01:54 GMT -5
You have the PKP listed under Machine Pistols in place of the FMG9. Also, dat MP7. Whoops my bad; thanks for pointing this out. Corrected. Have you used the MP7? Does it behave as shown in the plots? |
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Post by bamblakopz on Nov 16, 2011 13:08:07 GMT -5
Man, no wonder I LOVE the MP7. The Best recoil for any SMG in COD. It's just plain awesome!
Also, at 1000rpm, the FAD has very impressive recoil.
Usually, the higher the fire-rate, the more that baby will kick. But it still retains a solid recoil pattern and should stay on target.
It's great to see how I've fallen in love with those two guns, and THEN I learn about the stats and see why I love them so much.
Also, ACR isn't as OP with recoil as assumed? Still think the SCAR has a better recoil pattern.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 16, 2011 13:14:43 GMT -5
Man, no wonder I LOVE the MP7. The Best recoil for any SMG in COD. It's just plain awesome! Also, at 1000rpm, the FAD has very impressive recoil. Usually, the higher the fire-rate, the more that baby will kick. But it still retains a solid recoil pattern and should stay on target. It's great to see how I've fallen in love with those two guns, and THEN I learn about the stats and see why I love them so much. Also, ACR isn't as OP with recoil as assumed? Still think the ACR has a better recoil pattern. Thanks for the feedback. The ACR flatters to deceive. The actual kick doesn't look that bad, but is consistently upwards so the gun will ALWAYS pull off target (according to my calculations). Is this how the gun behaves in practice? |
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eLantern
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Post by eLantern on Nov 16, 2011 13:16:52 GMT -5
So what's up with the M16... what does it mean when there isn't any indication of shots 4 - 10?
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Post by rejectionrole on Nov 16, 2011 13:20:11 GMT -5
For the record, I've used the MP7 a lot and it definitely follows that recoil pattern. I usually use it with Attachments proficiency (so no Kick) and Rapid Fire (so strong recoil) and it always pulls 100% straight up. It's a beast and a headshot machine.
Really surprised at the ACR. Looks like I may have to try some of the other ARs more. I'm surprised the AK47 looks so precise, it's visual recoil is absofuckinglutely terrible.
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Post by kingstyles on Nov 16, 2011 13:30:40 GMT -5
The mp7 recoil is what it shows exactly. I am surprised at the acr. I thought it was better than this. I will have to look at the g36 I guess.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 16, 2011 13:33:40 GMT -5
So what's up with the M16... what does it mean when there isn't any indication of shots 4 - 10? The information I have from 3 different sources is that the M16 fires a 3 round burst. I have conflicting information about the Type 95; is this a burst fire weapon as well? If so, I'll modify the plot to exclude the blue shots 4-10. |
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Post by bamblakopz on Nov 16, 2011 13:34:56 GMT -5
Man, no wonder I LOVE the MP7. The Best recoil for any SMG in COD. It's just plain awesome! Also, at 1000rpm, the FAD has very impressive recoil. Usually, the higher the fire-rate, the more that baby will kick. But it still retains a solid recoil pattern and should stay on target. It's great to see how I've fallen in love with those two guns, and THEN I learn about the stats and see why I love them so much. Also, ACR isn't as OP with recoil as assumed? Still think the ACR has a better recoil pattern. Thanks for the feedback. The ACR flatters to deceive. The actual kick doesn't look that bad, but is consistently upwards so the gun will ALWAYS pull off target (according to my calculations). Is this how the gun behaves in practice? Yea, I've used the ACR a LOT. Mainly because the stats for the ACR are so good, so I wanted to get used to it. But it does seem, although the gun is powerful, that it IS slightly less accurate then people assume it is. It's no longer the OP laser gun that it was for MW2. I think the SCAR has more manageable recoil. The ACR is still a fantastic gun though. |
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Post by psijaka on Nov 16, 2011 13:35:08 GMT -5
The mp7 recoil is what it shows exactly. I am surprised at the acr. I thought it was better than this. I will have to look at the g36 I guess. For the record, I've used the MP7 a lot and it definitely follows that recoil pattern. I usually use it with Attachments proficiency (so no Kick) and Rapid Fire (so strong recoil) and it always pulls 100% straight up. It's a beast and a headshot machine. Really surprised at the ACR. Looks like I may have to try some of the other ARs more. I'm surprised the AK47 looks so precise, it's visual recoil is absoFoxtrottinglutely terrible. Thanks for the feedback; gives me some reassurance that I am on the right track. |
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eLantern
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Post by eLantern on Nov 16, 2011 13:40:36 GMT -5
So what's up with the M16... what does it mean when there isn't any indication of shots 4 - 10? The information I have from 3 different sources is that the M16 fires a 3 round burst. I have conflicting information about the Type 95; is this a burst fire weapon as well? If so, I'll modify the plot to exclude the blue shots 4-10. Yes, the Type95 is a 3-round burst. |
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neverlast74
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Post by neverlast74 on Nov 16, 2011 13:50:27 GMT -5
@ OP - thanks a lot.
I am suprised that the ACR looks less accurate than the m4.
pp90 and ump picture I would say correlate with my non-scientific "feeling".
ak47 has blue dots left and right on the x-axis, so if they are on top/overlays, we might not know how many dots of them are there . Which makes this gun questionable as people are taller than they are broad. From this G36 with an upside climb can easier be compensated than side kicks. Although there is lag and people are moving but then it becomes a hazardous game style fighting lag with inaccurate weapons.
Question- there are no blue dots in the m16 but the type95 has some - any reason why?
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Post by psijaka on Nov 16, 2011 14:11:33 GMT -5
@ OP - thanks a lot. I am suprised that the ACR looks less accurate than the m4. pp90 and ump picture I would say correlate with my non-scientific "feeling". ak47 has blue dots left and right on the x-axis, so if they are on top/overlays, we might not know how many dots of them are there . Which makes this gun questionable as people are taller than they are broad. From this G36 with an upside climb can easier be compensated than side kicks. Although there is lag and people are moving but then it becomes a hazardous game style fighting lag with inaccurate weapons. Question- there are no blue dots in the m16 but the type95 has some - any reason why? Thanks for the feedback. My bad about the Type 95; I had conflicting info on this gun. Will correct. |
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Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 16, 2011 14:15:55 GMT -5
Thank you, psijaka, this is fantastic.
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neverlast74
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Post by neverlast74 on Nov 16, 2011 14:38:33 GMT -5
I question how the sway plays into this - is the pattern I see up there in psijakas pics clean of sway or not? img832.imageshack.us/img832/1507/m4vsacr.jpgleft the m4 - right the acr this is PC version.30 bullets with ~3 bullets burts then 0,5sec pause and again. I did not fight sway and to me it felt acr is slower other than that THIS looks very much the same. what I realized is that the m4 has more sway than the acr. |
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Post by wcparker on Nov 16, 2011 14:56:20 GMT -5
Would you consider adding the M14, assuming max fire rate? Considering that it's not difficult to exceed the cap I think this would be a pretty good approximation.
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Post by rejectionrole on Nov 16, 2011 15:09:22 GMT -5
I think people would bitch a lot more than they already do if Type 95 was full auto with a max damage of 55 per shot, lol.  May have to try out the FAD... never used it at the end of my first playthrough, so maybe once I get back to 78 I'll try it again. |
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sh58
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Post by sh58 on Nov 16, 2011 16:02:10 GMT -5
mp5 outclassed completely by p90. the ONLY things mp5 wins in is a tiny bit better range (800vs 750) and very slightly faster reloads. loses in ROF and then gets crushed in ammo 50 vs 30. are there some other factors that are quite important. mp5 has less sway?
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Post by psijaka on Nov 16, 2011 16:06:27 GMT -5
I question how the sway plays into this - is the pattern I see up there in psijakas pics clean of sway or not? img832.imageshack.us/img832/1507/m4vsacr.jpgleft the m4 - right the acr this is PC version.30 bullets with ~3 bullets burts then 0,5sec pause and again. I did not fight sway and to me it felt acr is slower other than that THIS looks very much the same. what I realized is that the m4 has more sway than the acr. Sway is not included in these plots at this stage. Early days yet. |
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ninja
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Post by ninja on Nov 16, 2011 17:08:09 GMT -5
My main weapons out of that list seem to line up with what I'm seeing. G36c: Feels different if I'm using the iron sight, but that's because it obscures a lot of the area around it. A sight deals with the issue, and in my opinion it's a monster with an ACOG. L86: Has a hell of a lot of visual kick, but it's only the weapon model on screen. Used it with an ACOG and despite the fact you can see the dot freaking out like it's on LSD it's surprisingly accurate. MP7: Hilariously accurate. M60: Horrendous. I really wanted to use a prestige token on it, but it's still disgusting with Kick and a Grip. Too much sway means that anything beyond a burst goes everywhere, and that's not what I'm using an LMG for. FAD: Given that it's pretty much the noob cannon of this game, on par with something like the PPSh41 from WaW in my eyes (compared to the rest of it's class) it's a beast. It's main problem is the iron sight, but it's still unique enough that it warrants a look from everyone. Any information on a chart for the Mk14, or is that laughable given that it's semi automatic? I know I love it in either case |
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Post by psijaka on Nov 16, 2011 17:18:05 GMT -5
re the MK14 I always hesitate to post recoil scatter plots of semi auto guns because they would only be valid if someone were to fire at EXACTLY the right speed; not possible in practice. Or am I being naive?  |
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Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 16, 2011 18:22:33 GMT -5
Showing the recoil scatter plot at the max firerate at least shows the worst the recoil could possibly be.
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Post by bobo on Nov 16, 2011 21:00:55 GMT -5
Is "visual kick" in this game? I'm a noob to the COD science, but is the term visual kick refering to how it looks like the gun is kicking, but not exactly how the recoil is acting? For example, seems the Blops AK47 just had an upward recoil from your view, yet the bullets sprayed all over.
So if I'm understanding all this correctly (probably not lol), I'm wondering if there's guns that look like they are recoiling different than they actually are.
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Post by rejectionrole on Nov 16, 2011 21:32:35 GMT -5
The AK47 still has terrible visual recoil, despite the scatter plot showing it as being surprisingly accurate. It's just the animation of the gun itself kicking up and down. While it doesn't have an effect on where the shots actually land, it makes it look like your gun is flying way off target, which is disorienting and can make it hard to track your targets.
EDIT: It seems to me like the G36C is the gun to beat in terms of full-auto ARs. Second best TTK up close (only bested by the M4A1 by a measly 2 milliseconds, which is trivial), and the single best TTK at range, even besting the FAD by ~6 ms.
That being said, of course, the FAD has a 50 ms faster ADS time, which instantly gives it the best TTK of the full-autos at both close and long range if you assume you snap to ADS before you fire. Unfortunately, Quickdraw and Stalker both mess with that concept.
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Post by kingstyles on Nov 16, 2011 22:27:01 GMT -5
Wow, I just tested the acr, fad, and the g36 against a wall at medium range. Your charts are dead on.
The g36 stays in a straight line. Sometimes the recoil makes the whole cluster not climb and other times it climes quite a bit.
The Acr when bursted dosent rise but moves left and right like the green. When held down it climbs in a z pattern up which in enough clips in the same spot would fill it in like the blue part.
The fad climbs as much in my testing as the g36 but the cluster is fatter like yours shows. It is also more random on which way it is going too bounce.
These were all tested ads whithout kick or anything else to help compernsate there recoil.
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Post by kingstyles on Nov 16, 2011 22:40:14 GMT -5
I just tested those same 3 guns with kick. They appear to now have the pattern of the green dots only. Almost no blue. The g36 seems to get the least from the kick proficiency as it tends to sometimes still climb a lot, just not as often.
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Post by kingstyles on Nov 16, 2011 22:56:53 GMT -5
Also with sub machine guns, I did some testing with the mp7 with some of the different arrangements that you can do with it. I listed what appears to from my testing to be the least amount of recoil/climb to the most amount of recoil/climb.
mp7;
1. kick
2 kick with rapid
3. stock
4. rapid
Also, one more side note, the sway does affect the pattern. A gun like the mp7 that shoots pretty much up and down, you can watch the pattern curve side to side as the sway moves side to side causing slight bends in the pattern as it goes upward.
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