Joined: Feb 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 10,879 Location: Orkney
Re: MW3 Recoil Plots « Reply #61 on Nov 18, 2011, 4:55pm »
OK, I've tested a couple of guns in a private match and had a look at sway. As has been posted earlier, the sway only starts to build up in speed and amplitude after ADSing, eventually reaching maximum values (is it my imagination, or does the the UMPs sway travel in a figure of eight slightly below the aim pont?).
So this poses me a priblem; do I just assume that the recoil plot bursts take place immediately after ADSing and ignore sway, or do I assume the bursts take place after sway has built to it's maximum? At this stage the answer is easy as I don't have the data or understanding to factor in sway. That may change, in which case I'll plot both.
Re: MW3 Recoil Plots « Reply #64 on Nov 18, 2011, 6:55pm »
from what i see kick seems to do iether nothing or its effects are miniscule, also rapid fire seems to add almost no recoil and on some weapons appears iether take away recoil or make it easier to control. at the very least i would suggest people try it out for them self for the weopons they use most. and maybe someone could look into it. for a specific example try the p90 with kick then try it with rapid fire , rapid fire seems to reduce recoil by like 50 percent.
from what i see kick seems to do iether nothing or its effects are miniscule, also rapid fire seems to add almost no recoil and on some weapons appears iether take away recoil or make it easier to control. at the very least i would suggest people try it out for them self for the weopons they use most. and maybe someone could look into it. for a specific example try the p90 with kick then try it with rapid fire , rapid fire seems to reduce recoil by like 50 percent.
Ah; I remember having this discussion about rapid fire in my Black Ops recoil thread. What happens with RF is that when you get big viewkick, the next round can occur before the visual recoil has reached it's maximum, and I believe that when this happens, the residual velocity is cancelled and replaced by the new Viewkick velocity, before the maximum displacement has occurred.
Sorry if I'm not explaining this very well; I'll have a search through my Black Ops thread and see if I can find the relevant posts.
Joined: Feb 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 10,879 Location: Orkney
Re: MW3 Recoil Plots « Reply #66 on Nov 18, 2011, 7:15pm »
^ you will find some Black Ops MPL recoil plots on the linked page below, with and without RF. The RF plot shows a tighter spread, but a lower proportion of second and subsequent shots will be on target with RF (see the charts in page 1 of the linked thread).
Re: MW3 Recoil Plots « Reply #67 on Nov 18, 2011, 8:36pm »
tl;dr Regarding RF... It's complicated... >,> (yes yes, I know it's long. That's why I tl;dr myself and describe myself as a "wordy bastard". Just ignore me...)
(I believe the great question over whether velocity was conserved or overwritten and Den's testing using modded weapons in CoD4 finally proving that it was overwritten. This was a key issue and if I recall was the last great hurdle to completing the recoil model theory currently employed by psijaka.)
As psijaka says the relationship between the viewkick/centerspeed stats aka the recoil characteristics and the rate of fire are not as simple as one might think. Generally the assumption is that faster rate of fire means more recoil. Something backed up by personal experience largely due to the increase in the visual aspect. In other words the screen jerks around a lot faster.
Since every single recoil kick starts at center and takes a path away from, and then back to center, the exact timing of the next shot is incredibly important. In other words there is not one sweet spot for ROF, but two. If you take any given weapon and start at a very slow ROF you will find a rate that recenters 100% of the shots fired. This would be like single firing on long range targets. If you begin to increase the ROF you'll find fewer shots settling all the way back to center, but that the kick still has enough time to jump out and begin returning in before the next shot is fired.
Increase the ROF some more and you are giving the weapon less time to recenter, thus increasing the recoil pattern. (Not that the actual recoil has not changed, merely the timing of shots fired.) At some point the ROF becomes the worst possible ROF for a given weapon. This would be a ROF that results in the next shot happening at the apex of the kick at the furthest point away from center, for the most and largest kicks. (Given that guns do not kick exactly the same amount each shot we'd have to use a statistical model to give us the actual worst possible ROF. But you get the idea.)
Now once we have reached this worst possible ROF increasing the ROF even more actually improves the shot grouping, because shots are now going off before the weapon has reached the end of it's kick. This produces a tighter pattern overall, but even more importantly it produces tighter bursts because several shots can be fired closish to center before the gun has kicked appreciably off target. This is in fact the key to the accuracy of the burst fire weapons. They have a very high ROF which enables tight grouping, and then the enforced delay allowing recentering between bursts.
It should be noted that although this very high ROF can be beneficial it will also accentuate directional kick. In other words if you compare a weapon that kicks more up than down and you compare a slow ROF to a fairly equivalent high ROF version, on either side of the worst possible ROF. The high ROF version will be able to match the low ROF in horizontal kick, but at the ROF where it does it will kick up a great deal more than the other version. However, this is also what we would call predictable recoil, which can be compensated for. And thus it is not necessarily a bad thing in experienced hands. Probably the best example is the infamous Famas from BO. The gun had unbalanced recoil in not just one axis, but two... both right and up. And it had a high ROF. But look at the recoil plots. Yes it has a lot of recoil and won't stay on center for very long at all. But the recoil pattern is still fairly tight and extremely predictable with only so much scattering beyond the "box". Master that box and you can go full auto at mid range with pretty decent confidence.
Unfortunately, what all this means is there is no easy rule of thumb when it comes to RF. You know it will increase visual recoil, but the actual shot grouping could be better, worse, or largely unaffected. It will tend to enhance the directional bias of a weapon, for better or worse. As to the effects on the overall pattern or even just the pattern for the first 3 shots I wouldn't hazard a general rule as there are too many variables. If the weapons in MW3 are all similar enough then a general rule as it applies to MW3 could be ascribed, but only after doing the calculations for each individual weapon has been accomplished. I'm sure psijaka will be attending to that. (A service for which he deserves much credit. Thanks bro.)
I would argue for patience while the work is done, but also knowing a little bit about how recoil works should let bro's make informed guesses and do some testing of their own.
PS. Don't ask for an ideal ROF either. There are several possible answers here. The first option is the ROF that is as fast as possible, but slow enough to 100% recenter every single shot. However, this ROF is slow enough to lose most firefights. A ROF that is still fairly accurate, but allows you to kill quickly a high percent of the time is more ideal, even if you sometimes miss and lose a firefight due to nothing more than chance. There's a thread about firing 3 and 4 shot bursts vs pop firing rates that graphs this quite eloquently. But if you really want to be technical about it and you aren't constrained then an insanely high ROF would always be better. In fact the best possible is numerically impossible because it would be infinite, firing your entire clip instantly. (There was a MW2 glitch to allow you to do just that at one point I believe. heh) Although we can calculate the worst possible ROF in terms of accuracy, there truly are two equal extremes when it comes to the best. I'll also note that while high ROF often incurs more directional bias both the predictability along with the faster TTK tend to make this actually more beneficial than the low ROF equivalent, all other factors being equal. Honestly I think Treyarch failed to understand this when designing the Famas, and still failed to fully acknowledge it with their minimalist nerf.
Re: MW3 Recoil Plots « Reply #70 on Nov 19, 2011, 3:50am »
BTW page 8 of the BO recoil plots has some of those kill times and probabilities charts that psijaka did, showing the effects of various means of recoil compensation, including merely firing different length bursts or manually firing at a slower rate.
Also note that I didn't mention it above but range to the target is a KEY variable. Meaning that every weapon with it's particular recoil stats will have a statistically worst possible ROF that is also range dependent due to more distant targets requiring more precision. (Something psijaka's charts do, in fact, take into account. Very much looking forward to similar charts on MW3... even though I don't have the game. Lord I'm such a nerd! heh In fact I guarantee I've spent more time here on this message board than playing W@W, MW2, and BO combined Oh well...)
Joined: Feb 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 10,879 Location: Orkney
Re: MW3 Recoil Plots « Reply #71 on Nov 19, 2011, 10:05am »
@mannon, randomguy
I have spent a grand total of 30 minutes on MW3; 3 private matches lol. I really don't like the maps, but that is for a different thread. But I enjoy messing about with spreadsheets - nerdy or what? Better than just heading for the bar in the evening when I am working away from home.
I will eventually produce kill time probablity charts; all in good time though. I wan to see full data for attachments, kick, and to get a better undrstanding of the effects of sway.
Would you consider adding the M14, assuming max fire rate? Considering that it's not difficult to exceed the cap I think this would be a pretty good approximation.
what about the akimbo machine pistols. i hear a rumour that akimbo skorpions have almost no recoil.
i guess they'll have to be tested against a wall rather than with simulations as we don't have the files yet
No idea, but very unlikely. Dual wields had very wide hip spread in bops; making recoil of secndary importance. I presume it is the same in mw3.
I tested the akimbo skorpions myself on PS3 and they have far,far,far less recoil than a single skorpion (Almost none actually, its comparable to the ACR but because your hipfiring its very hard to notice most of the time). And if im not mistaken the crosshairs are also slightly smaller than the other machine pistols.
Since the skorpion is other wise easily the worst MP i think this is the niche that infinity ward wanted them to fill.
Also a note psijaka the size of the akimbo MP's cross hairs is the same as the MW2 MP ones (Saying this because it seemed you thought they were the same as blops smg akimbo's)
Re: MW3 Recoil Plots « Reply #81 on Nov 21, 2011, 3:12pm »
I haven't heard anything to indicate that Rapid Fire has changed from its previous statistics of RoF x 1.33 (Fire Time x 0.75). Kick, according to the guide, reduces your recoil by 20%. Not sure on the other two.
Re: MW3 Recoil Plots « Reply #86 on Nov 22, 2011, 11:37am »
All LMGs fully loaded with Kick and Grip, to see how they really stand against the automatic ARs.
PP90, P90, MP7 with RF, AND PP90, P90, MP7 with RF + Kick, because those are the three SMGs that people want to get as much info on when comparing which they want to use.
All LMGs fully loaded with Kick and Grip, to see how they really stand against the automatic ARs.
PP90, P90, MP7 with RF, AND PP90, P90, MP7 with RF + Kick, because those are the three SMGs that people want to get as much info on when comparing which they want to use.
Re: MW3 Recoil Plots « Reply #88 on Nov 22, 2011, 7:31pm »
O,O Wow... I want this game now just so I can play with the MP7. That looks deadly! P90 also looks to me like RF definitely improves the spread. ;3 Though I suppose if you run the simulation a few times you might get a few different patterns, but notice that both the blue and green groupings look to be more narrow, at least horizontally.
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