I think we had this debate a few months ago on our giant shotgun thread thats still kicking. I'd just ask brick to post exactly what he wants. He's spent enough time campaigning for it that it should be fair and he's kind of earned it ten times over already.
I think we had this debate a few months ago on our giant shotgun thread thats still kicking. I'd just ask brick to post exactly what he wants. He's spent enough time campaigning for it that it should be fair and he's kind of earned it ten times over already.
I agree. Brick is the most dedicated person here, in my opinion. Works his heart out for those Shotties *Tear*.
Like other balance threads, before people start spamming ideas like crazy, we need to set out a rough guide as to what each shotgun should be like so we can compromise ideas more effectively.
USAS 12: Fine as is. KSG 12: Very low range, but consistent 1 shot kills. SPAS-12: Longest range, but 2-3 shots required at range. AA-12: Largest spread due to full-auto, but still 1-2 shot ability up close. Striker: Fine as is. Possibly lower damage at range. Model 1887: Balance of range and consistent 1 shot kills. (Hybrid of KSG and SPAS) Masterkey: 1 shot kills up close, quickly dropping off to multiple shots required at it's longer range.
I think that's how each one should fair up against the rest, but feedback is appreciated.
I think we had this debate a few months ago on our giant shotgun thread thats still kicking. I'd just ask brick to post exactly what he wants. He's spent enough time campaigning for it that it should be fair and he's kind of earned it ten times over already.
Yeah pretty much, the only reason we didn't really make this thread was because of the 30 page monstrosity indicating that the ideas were pretty covered.
I think we had this debate a few months ago on our giant shotgun thread thats still kicking. I'd just ask brick to post exactly what he wants. He's spent enough time campaigning for it that it should be fair and he's kind of earned it ten times over already.
Yeah pretty much, the only reason we didn't really make this thread was because of the 30 page monstrosity indicating that the ideas were pretty covered.
There's no where in that thread where I can find the definite post-patch shotgun stats.
I made this so we can have solid understanding of what we want. That 'monstrosity' is a jumbled, cluttered thread.
« Last Edit: Jul 21, 2012, 11:05am by MoopusMaximus »
Our current philosophy on this right now is not to nerf but rather to buff those weapons that are under-performing. Not sure yet on the eta of when these changes will go live.
So, if this is what they will do, shotguns need to be much more powerful.
USAS-12: Increase minimum damage to 10 KSG-12: Increase rate of fire to 100 RPM and increase pellet count to 12 SPAS-12: Increase rate of fire to 80 RPM and increase pellet count to 12 AA-12: Reduce rate of fire to 300 RPM, increase damage to 25-10 and double starting ammo Striker: Reduce rate of fire to 300 RPM and increase pellet count to 8 Model 1887: Increase pellet count to 12
Some explanations: USAS-12: Horrible minimum damage. It should at least be as powerful as shotguns in CoD4 and Black Ops. KSG-12: Needs more consistency and a higher rate of fire, so you can win against multiple enemies. SPAS-12: Needs more consistency. Rate of fire is lower than the KSG-12, since it has better range. AA-12: Needs more damage and ammo. Reduced rate of fire, so it's not too easy to use. Striker: It's currently the best shotgun, but still too bad compared to most other weapons. Model 1887: Extremely low rate of fire, no attachments, high spread, but the best damage.
Our current philosophy on this right now is not to nerf but rather to buff those weapons that are under-performing. Not sure yet on the eta of when these changes will go live.
So, if this is what they will do, shotguns need to be much more powerful.
USAS-12: Increase minimum damage to 10 KSG-12: Increase rate of fire to 100 RPM and increase pellet count to 12 SPAS-12: Increase rate of fire to 80 RPM and increase pellet count to 12 AA-12: Reduce rate of fire to 300 RPM, increase damage to 25-10 and double starting ammo Striker: Reduce rate of fire to 300 RPM and increase pellet count to 8 Model 1887: Increase pellet count to 12
Some explanations: USAS-12: Horrible minimum damage. It should at least be as powerful as shotguns in CoD4 and Black Ops. KSG-12: Needs more consistency and a higher rate of fire, so you can win against multiple enemies. SPAS-12: Needs more consistency. Rate of fire is lower than the KSG-12, since it has better range. AA-12: Needs more damage and ammo. Reduced rate of fire, so it's not too easy to use. Striker: It's currently the best shotgun, but still too bad compared to most other weapons. Model 1887: Extremely low rate of fire, no attachments, high spread, but the best damage.
No foxtrotting way IW is doing this imho. If that wasn't a problem then i agree with any and all Shotgun Buffs. Seriously they made the starting proficiencies & attachmens for shotguns Kick, Silenced and Red dot sight with the Damage & Range proficiency being at the mid to high 20's, WTF.
I'd be interested to see how a single pellet pattern would help the consistency of shotties.
Mark said he wanted to do that for the next game. I am tyrin to ge them to go another way that will remove all the randomness and poor spread coverage issues of the past.
I'd be interested to see how a single pellet pattern would help the consistency of shotties.
Mark said he wanted to do that for the next game. I am tyrin to ge them to go another way that will remove all the randomness and poor spread coverage issues of the past.
Interesting that they may go that way. What's your other way?
Quote:
Reducing spread would do the same thing.
I think this approach has merit, but don't think it'd be exactly the same effect. You could still get pellets bunched up in one corner. And if you get the spread too tight, shots begin to get really hard to hit.
I forgot to mention that I would like to see slight ADS spread reduction. Hasn't it been confirmed the spread actually goes bigger a bit now when ADS'd?
I forgot to mention that I would like to see slight ADS spread reduction. Hasn't it been confirmed the spread actually goes bigger a bit now when ADS'd?
Pretty sure that was a myth. Basically, steady aim reduces spread but only when fired from the hip. So people ADS and that removes that effect, which was useful in old games when shotties had high damage, but not now.
I forgot to mention that I would like to see slight ADS spread reduction. Hasn't it been confirmed the spread actually goes bigger a bit now when ADS'd?
Yes, spread is worse when ADS, except when using the Model 1887 and AA-12. I guess the ADS spread is the same as in CoD4 (5.5), so using Steady Aim is always better than ADS.
I forgot to mention that I would like to see slight ADS spread reduction. Hasn't it been confirmed the spread actually goes bigger a bit now when ADS'd?
Yes, spread is worse when ADS, except when using the Model 1887 and AA-12. I guess the ADS spread is the same as in CoD4 (5.5), so using Steady Aim is always better than ADS.
Always looked the same to me (in MW3). Will test later then
I thought we had already figured out what was needed: KSG: (9 pellets) 40-15 (3-7 pellet kill) SPAS-12: (8 pellets) 40-14 (3-8 pellet kill) Model 1887: (8 pellets) 40-20 (3-5 pellet kill) USAS-12: (9 pellets) 25-9 (4-11 pellet kill) AA-12: (8 pellets) 20-8 (5-13 pellet kill) and increase reserve ammo to 8+24 instead of 8+8 Striker: No changes needed. This shotgun still destroys people even after it got reduced to 6 pellets.
An interesting suggestion to give them would be to make the DAMAGE proficiency decrease the minimum damage value on shotguns. That would help give more incentive to use the range proficiency on non-USAS shotguns.
What I would like to see is the removal of pellets altogether. I would have pellet looking things come out of the gun for effect but what it would actually do would have no single projectiles to it.
What I would like to be looked into is a way to make shotguns damage based off of the area of the target in relation to the spread. Basically instead of a single hit scans it sends out a cone that fills the particular spread size of the shotgun at any range, from a single point at the barrel to its widest point at the end of shotgun range. Then the target's hitbox area is calculated inside of that cone and damage is dealt based on how big the hitbox is inside the spread. Obviously the further away the target is the less area it will take up in the hitbox. But then of course there is one problem to this. Prone/side facing enemies would be really hard to kill with this model so I would include "accuracy multipliers" that measure how close to center the torso and head hitbox of the target was to the center of the spread and multiply the damage done if the accuracy rating was high. This way if you are aiming at a prone/side facing enemy as long as your aim was close to center the damage dealt would be good enough for a kill. The current hitscans already measure the range they travel so that is not the problem. The problem is I don't know if they can implament a system with this shape of hitscan that can measure a target's hitbox area inside the spread and relation to center of the cone fast enough to be useful in online play. Maybe not with this current gen tech but the next gen consoles will.
This system eliminates any problems that come from randomized spread and poor spread coverage due to too few pellets populating the shotgun's spread. I think this would see a real improvement in consistency due to these factors. I just started on this idea a little bit ago and I have not gotten a chance to tell mark about it yet. I will probably wait until after the buffs are done to say anything about this.
This sounds like it would only work well, and I mean well if and only if anti lag is coded properly. Try pitching the idea to someone at treyarc who listens and see what they have to say about it. I do not trust IW with something like this.
You're kidding me right? Here's treyarch's business model:
1. Look at the last IW game 2. Find anything that anyone ever complained about 3. Nerf to oblivion 4. Ship her off, Sammy!
And I'll be damned if you think black ops handled lag issues better than IW did. all they did was mask it with a different netcode, but connection caused more issues in that game than any game I ever played in my entire life.
The only thing I can think of would be Glaunchers, and they handled them quite well in BO. I suppose you could say sniping -- thats fair. But they DID fix it. Where's the patch for how easy MW3 is?
Launchers: Weakened Stopping Power: Removed (Most people are fine with this, but still fits the bill) Danger Close: Removed (Not the worst Idea) Commando: Removed OMA: Removed Scavenger: Doesn't resupply equipment and such Sniping: Nerfed to hell (Fixed, as you said) Thermal: Made impossible to see crap Shotguns: Made primaries, and worse overall Semtex: Made worthless Dropshotting: Freaking swan dive.
I'm sure I could find more examples if I looked but I think my points getting across.
Let's toss in that they suck ass at balancing weapons, as they're the only ones that make absolute straight upgrades within weapon classes. There was no diversity, and certain ones outright outclassed others in every way (Unless a quarter seconds of reload time is worth 10 bullets or some shit)
And their netcode was horrible. Hotboxes were completely misaligned if your connection wasn't perfect. Everything was setup in a way that instead of looking choppy when one was lagging (a la MW2) the game would run smoothly client side despite everything being in the wrong fucking position. So even when one was having connection issues, the game wouldn't tell them.
While I'm on a rant, I'll throw in that they had a level unlock system AND a money unlock system. It's fine to have one, but including both was a stupid ass idea that did nothing but hinder the other. The point of an in game currency is to allow players to earn items at any time as long as they can "afford" it, but they didn't allow that. They threw the idea in without even thinking it through. They just really wanted a money system so they could use the gambling model.
Now MW3 fucked up Touch Football themselves, but that's because IW lost half their staff, at least they're doing something about it now. I won't say I'm particularly happy with them either, but in terms of connection, IW used to do a pretty good job despite their matchmaking model (people being able to leave and join at any time). I will say I don't think I'll be buying any more installments from either of the two though, seeing as how the big name devs of IW left for Respawn-E.
@ asasa Um, we're making right now? If you want something done right submit your own balance ideas to the devs right.
Are we even going to get our ideas looked at though and will the devs consider them? It seems like a long shot.
I don't got the slightest clue of how to get a hold of them. I said before they theyre probably getting tons of suggestions sent to them, so unless it's someone that one of them already knows well (Brick's a good example I guess) then there shouldn't be a problems.
I will say, you probably dont have to worry about getting your shotguns ideas through.
I was kind of banking on brick sending mark the giant finished wall of text with links to google spreadsheets and explanations for all of the decisions with annotations to testing videos for recoil and the original threads the ideas were presented. It looks official as Foxtrot in my imagination.
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