Joined: Nov 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 1,651 Location: Europe
Re: AR Balance Discussion « Reply #180 on Jul 24, 2012, 6:51am »
What about decreasing delay between bursts for M16, from 0.20 sec to 0.10-0.15 sec? I might think that would do the trick. Type 95 has higher burst ROF but lower practical ROF.
What about decreasing delay between bursts for M16, from 0.20 sec to 0.10-0.15 sec? I might think that would do the trick. Type 95 has higher burst ROF but lower practical ROF.
I wouldn't really like that. You would turn it into a (sort-of) full-auto weapon. I'd appreciate a flat RoF buff instead.
Joined: Jan 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 835 Location: PSN- warden816
Re: AR Balance Discussion « Reply #183 on Jul 24, 2012, 9:20am »
I personally think the M16 should be a 3 hit kill at all ranges. This would emphasize its long range role and keep it from becoming a type 95 clone. A rate of fire buff would also be nice though.
Re: AR Balance Discussion « Reply #188 on Jul 24, 2012, 11:03am »
Lol wut? You guys have used it? In long range it is usually 2-3 bursts, wouldn't make much difference. And honestly I don't want a Assault Rifle to be like a LMG, but that is just me.
Re: AR Balance Discussion « Reply #193 on Jul 24, 2012, 5:09pm »
The only Assault Rifle that beats the M16 at range right now is the Mk14. I have golded it, and it is not a bad gun in its niche. But the the Mk14 beats it in that niche, and craps on it everywhere else.
The only Assault Rifle that beats the M16 at range right now is the Mk14. I have golded it, and it is not a bad gun in its niche. But the the Mk14 beats it in that niche, and craps on it everywhere else.
When you say "at range", what does that mean? Also, what attachments/proficiency do you use with it? I have not been able to find a range at which I would not literally prefer any other Assault Rifle over the M16. Looking at the "% recentered" columns of the table in the recoil thread puts the gun in perspective - the closest comparison is the AK47.
Re: AR Balance Discussion « Reply #195 on Jul 24, 2012, 5:34pm »
I'd rather have a graph that show "max possible recoil" in degrees than recenter one. For example, the MP7 and the ACR have very low recenter chances (ACR is 0 =P). Would give a better idea of how much bad a gun can get.
When you say "at range", what does that mean? Also, what attachments/proficiency do you use with it?
The range at which you are relying on Marksman to tell that there is anyone there. So pretty far. Think balcony on Sanctuary to across the cliff bridge, or the farthest sight line on Mission. Only relying on first shot of each burst to land. It doesn't really need to be that far. Maybe half as much on the short end.
RF+Red dot.
Crouching doesn't seem to improve accuracy at all. Neither does Kick or Stability, in my testing. They really seem useless. M16 has my highest headshot percentage of all ARs. Great for enemies behind cover.
I agree. It would be pretty cool. It would be a long range monster.
I guarantee it would still be a turd. Its got way too much recoil, way too slow of a firerate, and ofc is burst.
It would probably be on par with a stock T95 at long range if it had a 3HK maximum.
Which is why I suggested the damage profile (Page 6: 50-35, drop starts at 700u) that I did. RPM is still 780 (not 1000), and you can occasionally get one-burst kills that way. Of course, you're firing two anyways just due to the nature of the game, but the possibility is still there. Want complete control? Use the MK14.
The M16A4 is SUPPOSED to outclass the Type 95 at longer ranges, and is SUPPOSED to outclass the automatics at any range because it's a burst weapon.
Remember, this is a slow-burst gun. Type 95 is a fast-burst one and so will still run over this at close range.
The only Assault Rifle that beats the M16 at range right now is the Mk14. I have golded it, and it is not a bad gun in its niche. But the the Mk14 beats it in that niche, and craps on it everywhere else.
I would take any AR over the M16 at range. Its abysmal. Takes a minimum of 3 bursts every time, RF + Kick. T95 would take 3 as well, but far more consistently.
Joined: Jan 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 835 Location: PSN- warden816
Re: AR Balance Discussion « Reply #203 on Jul 25, 2012, 1:03am »
CM901 is the second worse assualt rifle. Its outclassed by the ACR as much as the M16 is outclassed by the T95. Much more recoil, lower RoF, slower reloads, less mininum damage (not a OHK at all ranges like the ACR is in Touch Football). All that for about 10% more range?
Re: AR Balance Discussion « Reply #204 on Jul 25, 2012, 2:09am »
Which is why I'm surprised it hasn't been discussed any more than it has been.
The AK alone has higher RoF, better recoil, and more range (400 more units before it begins to drop, and the range is the main draw of the CM!)
A 1.1 multiplier would make it a 2-4 shot kill, however I think this would be too powerful. It would be like reducing the TAR's RoF and dropping it into MW3. Even at it's current RoF, it would almost be a match for the Type at close range for raw TTK, but it wouldn't have the disadvantage of being a 3 round burst. With kick the recoil isn't THAT bad either, it would make the M60 worthless (two shot out to a longer range, better recoil, higer RoF, much faster movement, ADS, and reloads). Buffing it to a 2 shot kill would create more problems than it fixes.
The next option is to increase RoF and decrease recoil. This way is also a problem however, because then it either becomes the AK or the ACR. Each weapon should have it's own niche to fill, just like MW2, and I think buffing it like this would end up either outclassing the AK or still being outclassed by the AK, depending on how large the buff is.
The only solution I can think of without drastically changing the weapon is to make it a flat 3-3 hit kill at it's current RoF and recoil. Yeah, this is encroaching on the LMGs a little bit, but the CM has a lower RoF than most of the LMGs and it can't take advantage of stance bonuses. It would get the niche of being the best AR to silence, and would be be to compete much easier at range due to requiring one less bullet than say, the ACR, while having the recoil to balance it out. The AK would also have a place, still having lower TTK until 1592 units and better recoil, especially if it would be buffed to remove gunkick.
Re: AR Balance Discussion « Reply #205 on Jul 25, 2012, 2:17am »
why don't we just give it monster range (basically like your 3-3 but still 3-4) and reduce mag size to 20, and reduce view kick. All the merits of the AK still stand and the CM is significantly different from every other weapon.
Re: AR Balance Discussion « Reply #206 on Jul 25, 2012, 2:22am »
so why not take away one of the ACR's unnecessary advantages (30 ranged damage instead of 25) and just move it to the CM901. Then give a slight buff to the AK47 by increasing its rate of fire to something like 750 RPM.
The result would be two different niches: - CM901 would be the AR with the best ranged weapon as well as the only AR that can kill in one hit at any range in HC. It also would have the advantage of killing in 3 hits or less if at least one of those hits is a headshot. - AK47 would be the medium RoF, High Range, High Recoil gun. And because so much of the recoil is gunkick, it would become really good when paired with the thermal scope.
why don't we just give it monster range (basically like your 3-3 but still 3-4) and reduce mag size to 20, and reduce view kick. All the merits of the AK still stand and the CM is significantly different from every other weapon.
Because it would be much simpler to change one number (the ranged damage) than do all of that. A 20 round mag would also be really unnecessary, why nerf it? It might be more true to real life, but who cares? It would basically be a 20 round ACR with more range and a bit more recoil.
so why not take away one of the ACR's unnecessary advantages (30 ranged damage instead of 25) and just move it to the CM901. Then give a slight buff to the AK47 by increasing its rate of fire to something like 750 RPM.
The result would be two different niches: - CM901 would be the AR with the best ranged weapon as well as the only AR that can kill in one hit at any range in HC. It also would have the advantage of killing in 3 hits or less if at least one of those hits is a headshot. - AK47 would be the medium RoF, High Range, High Recoil gun. And because so much of the recoil is gunkick, it would become really good when paired with the thermal scope.
Even if we gave it ACR damage and swapped the reload times or something, it would still have the worst TTK at all ranges and the worst recoil.
Which is why I'm surprised it hasn't been discussed any more than it has been.
The AK alone has higher RoF, better recoil, and more range (400 more units before it begins to drop, and the range is the main draw of the CM!)
A 1.1 multiplier would make it a 2-4 shot kill, however I think this would be too powerful. It would be like reducing the TAR's RoF and dropping it into MW3. Even at it's current RoF, it would almost be a match for the Type at close range for raw TTK, but it wouldn't have the disadvantage of being a 3 round burst. With kick the recoil isn't THAT bad either, it would make the M60 worthless (two shot out to a longer range, better recoil, higer RoF, much faster movement, ADS, and reloads). Buffing it to a 2 shot kill would create more problems than it fixes.
The next option is to increase RoF and decrease recoil. This way is also a problem however, because then it either becomes the AK or the ACR. Each weapon should have it's own niche to fill, just like MW2, and I think buffing it like this would end up either outclassing the AK or still being outclassed by the AK, depending on how large the buff is.
The only solution I can think of without drastically changing the weapon is to make it a flat 3-3 hit kill at it's current RoF and recoil. Yeah, this is encroaching on the LMGs a little bit, but the CM has a lower RoF than most of the LMGs and it can't take advantage of stance bonuses. It would get the niche of being the best AR to silence, and would be be to compete much easier at range due to requiring one less bullet than say, the ACR, while having the recoil to balance it out. The AK would also have a place, still having lower TTK until 1592 units and better recoil, especially if it would be buffed to remove gunkick.
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