zeebo
True Bro
Posts: 10,064
|
Post by zeebo on Nov 24, 2010 13:09:18 GMT -5
This is a simple observation of the players I've encountered on Xbox Live. In CoD4, the MP5 was the go to/popular SMG. In Black Ops, it's the AK74u. Comparing the stats between the two guns on both games, they are identical.
What are the differences between the two games that has changed the choice of the players?
|
|
|
Post by Corax on Nov 24, 2010 13:28:08 GMT -5
The AK-74u had always been "SMG" of choice on the PC. The debate between the AK-74u and MP5 was a hard topic back in the day. I swear, there were four threads about it and a P90 vs. MP5 got converted into a MP5 vs AK-74u thread instead. Anyways ...
COD4: AK-74u: + Lower Kick + AR Aim Assist (longer range for console) + AR Body Penetration + Medium Wall Penetration + Shorter Reload Time - 95% Run Speed - Attachments makes it worse (but has great iron sights anyways) - Idle Sway - Longer Knife Recovery MP5 + Faster Center Speed + 100% Run Speed + Quicker Knife Recovery (same as pistols) + Attachments has expected results + No Idle Sway + Coupled M9 for more ammo - SMG Aim Assist (shorter range for console) - SMG Body Penetration - Weak Wall Penetration - Longer Reload Time
In BOPS: AK-74u: + Grip (makes Center Speed better than MP5) + Lower Kick + Faster Reload + Much more attachment variety MP5: + Better Natural Center Speed
COD4 to BOPS difference: AK-74u: + 100% Run Speed + No Idle Sway + No more attachment penalties - SMG Body Penetration - Small Wall Penetration - ROF went from 800 to 750 MP5: - ROF went from 800 to 750 - Add speed went from 1.77 to 2.0 (longer reload cancel time)
Tell me if I am missing something.
|
|
zeebo
True Bro
Posts: 10,064
|
Post by zeebo on Nov 24, 2010 23:11:38 GMT -5
Thanks for the analysis. I was typically a 74u user on console in CoD4 also, I just seen so much popularity with the MP5 in 4, and didn't see it carry over to BlOps, but now I understand.
Also, I don't know if I would say the 74u has "less" recoil than the MP5, it just has a different recoil pattern (vertical) as compared to the MP5's recoil pattern (more right-up).
I don't use the grip with my 74u, as I don't see it needed... Which is what brought me to questioning why I haven't given the MP5 much of a chance. I have pretty much stuck to my favorite (realistically) guns, which is the 47 and 74u.
Thanks again.
|
|
|
Post by chip sandwich on Nov 24, 2010 23:15:15 GMT -5
The 74u has become fairly better in Black Ops. It now has SMG hip spread, 100% movement, no idle, grip and newb chewbs. The only thing they downgraded was rifle bullet to pistol bullet.
I don't have a 74u class, I just pick them up off the ground. Chances are pretty reliable that it'll have orange tiger, grip and rapid fire.
|
|
|
Post by Corax on Nov 24, 2010 23:39:32 GMT -5
Thanks for the analysis. I was typically a 74u user on console in CoD4 also, I just seen so much popularity with the MP5 in 4, and didn't see it carry over to BlOps, but now I understand. Also, I don't know if I would say the 74u has "less" recoil than the MP5, it just has a different recoil pattern (vertical) as compared to the MP5's recoil pattern (more right-up). I don't use the grip with my 74u, as I don't see it needed... Which is what brought me to questioning why I haven't given the MP5 much of a chance. I have pretty much stuck to my favorite (realistically) guns, which is the 47 and 74u. Thanks again. I use both in COD4. Both are great weapons and are pretty much even if you look at the pros and cons. I would not say that the AK-74u has lower recoil either, just overall lower kick. The center speed go towards reducing recoil as well, which the MP5 has the advantage of. I think the recoil on both weapons are relatively the same from experience in COD4, just different. Honestly, I think the MP5 was so popular because it was a powerful stock weapon. Since people got use to the weapon and so many people used it, it is much easier to pick up ammo. The MP5 + M9 ammo share trick was also very popular to reduce the need in Bandoleer. Though, I always have my trusty clutch DEagle around.
|
|
zeebo
True Bro
Posts: 10,064
|
Post by zeebo on Nov 25, 2010 0:32:52 GMT -5
Thanks again monkey. Do you know if there are any combinations in BlOps such as the MP5 + M9? I forgot all about this from CoD4; it has been ages since I've played it.
|
|
|
Post by ParaGoombaSlayer on Nov 25, 2010 0:53:51 GMT -5
The AK-74u had always been "SMG" of choice on the PC. The debate between the AK-74u and MP5 was a hard topic back in the day. I swear, there were four threads about it and a P90 vs. MP5 got converted into a MP5 vs AK-74u thread instead. Anyways ... COD4: AK-74u: + Lower Kick + AR Aim Assist (longer range for console) + AR Body Penetration + Medium Wall Penetration + Shorter Reload Time - 95% Run Speed - shorter knife range - attachments makes it worse (but has great iron sights anyways) - idle sway MP5 + Faster Center Speed + 100% Run Speed + longer knife range + attachments has expected results + no idle sway - SMG Aim Assist (shorter range for console) - SMG Body Penetration - Weak Wall Penetration - Long Reload Time In BOPS: AK-74u: + Grip (makes Center Speed better than MP5) + Lower Kick + Faster Reload MP5: - Better Natural Center Speed Tell me if I am missing something. Only the red dot sight and the silencer make the AK-74u's hip fire larger, the ACOG sight doesn't affect the hip fire. And the MP5 shares ammunition with the M9 pistol.
|
|
|
Post by Corax on Nov 25, 2010 1:48:13 GMT -5
zeebo: Ammo sharing in COD4 and BOPS are different. In COD4, some weapons share the same ammo type, therefore, you pick up ammo based on the ammo type. M9 shares ammo with the MP5 and Mini-Uzi. M9 is the only sidearm that shares with primaries. You can look at Den's ammo chart below the essential chart: denkirson.xanga.com/632800688/call-of-duty-4/#chartIn BOPS, without Scavenger, you have to pick up ammo from the same gun. I do not know if they have the same restriction like in MW2 where it has to be the exact gun, down to the attachments. I haven't payed much attention. So no, there is no such combinations because the mechanics are no longer the same. Also, to be very honest, even in BOPS, the MP5 and AK-74u are pretty much equal, with the AK-74u having the slight advantage. The recoil are the same for me, just different in nature. Unless I use grip, which I don't, the only advantage the MP5 has over the AK-74u is the reload time. I prefer using extended mags on both guns anyways. On the other hand, I will use the AK-74u sometime to fit dual mags on it, since it is basically a free Bandoleer perk. The MP5 is a stock weapon after all. But a pretty good one. paragoombaslayer: As I said, attachments makes it worse. And yeah, I forgot to mention the ammo sharing on the initial post but I did say it on my second post.
|
|
n1gh7
True Bro
Black Market Dealer
Posts: 11,718
|
Post by n1gh7 on Nov 25, 2010 2:01:59 GMT -5
In BOPS, without Scavenger, you have to pick up ammo from the same gun. I do not know if they have the same restriction like in MW2 where it has to be the exact gun, down to the attachments. I haven't payed much attention. So no, there is no such combinations because the mechanics are no longer the same. I think it's the same as MW2. However, it seemed that in single player any gun would work. *shrug*
|
|
scorp
True Bro
Posts: 10,318
|
Post by scorp on Nov 25, 2010 11:53:22 GMT -5
I don't understand why 3Arch didn't catch that giving the 74u a grip would make the MP5 nearly completely outclassed. If the grip were removed from the 74u or bad hipfire/sway/AR movement speed given then the SMGs would be better balanced.
|
|
|
Post by Corax on Nov 25, 2010 12:47:00 GMT -5
I don't understand why 3Arch would make arguable the worst SMG classified.
|
|
IL TJ
True Bro
Posts: 103
|
Post by IL TJ on Nov 25, 2010 12:55:38 GMT -5
to balance the guns, 3arc should make ak74u without grip have ar hip fire
|
|
|
Post by adyc00l on Nov 25, 2010 17:04:36 GMT -5
It's true, Treyarch needs to fix every gun in this game for balance reasons
|
|
toysrme
True Bro
"Even at normal Health, there's no other choice than the Vector" Den Kirson
Posts: 1,339
|
Post by toysrme on Nov 26, 2010 16:35:07 GMT -5
there's nothing imba about the 74u+grip. if anything its a total noob attachment considering its practical accuracy to begin with and how sickeningly strong 40-20 smg's are with 45 rounds of ammunition and steady aim pro.
|
|
Den
He's That Guy
Posts: 4,294,967,295
|
Post by Den on Nov 26, 2010 17:14:37 GMT -5
It is as previously mentioned.
Both the MP5 and AK74u are taken almost 100% right out of COD4, statistically. The only differences are... the AK74u doesn't Idle anymore and it has 100% move speed.
The idle of the AK74u was apparently a very significant thing on consoles. The idle was a subtle kind of movement that was tough to follow with a thumbstick to the point that the greater recoil on the MP5 was a much more controllable element of inaccuracy than the wavering sights on the AK74u. (not to mention the MP5 shared ammo with a handful of 9mm guns)
On PC, the idle was a lot more bearable due to the minute, absolute movements of the mouse, but the favored choice between the two guns was probably much closer to equal on a large scale (though still with the AK in greater favor). 'Course, almost every organized "competition" got rid of the AK74's idle through mods, making it vastly superior than almost every other weapon in COD4 (next to the M4 and AK47 with their idle removed).
On to Black Ops - So the AK doesn't idle and it doesn't have Assault Rifle ancillary stats anymore. It also doesn't suffer from equipping certain attachments. That's several buffs for a gun already better than the other. There was the loss of RifleBullet, though I don't see many teams where the enemies are just lining up for you. The MP5k has no point now.
|
|
toysrme
True Bro
"Even at normal Health, there's no other choice than the Vector" Den Kirson
Posts: 1,339
|
Post by toysrme on Nov 26, 2010 17:27:01 GMT -5
i play for months with the controller (as the first controller game i had played since goldeneye, which i thought was a sucky game...) i never had problems with the 74u's idle. it never idled enough to matter at any range you would have wanted to shoot at with it.
the loss of rifle bullets & now having to kill people 1 at a time is a mega nerf stick for the 74u. (VS it's cod4 counterpart)
|
|
|
Post by mw0swedeking on Nov 26, 2010 18:17:52 GMT -5
So why does the MP5 feel so much worse in BO than it ever did in CoD4 or MW2? It feels like more than simply the removal of stopping power to me.
|
|
|
Post by Corax on Nov 26, 2010 18:32:36 GMT -5
The only difference between COD4 MP5 and BOPS MP5K is the longer add time and lower ROF in BOPS. Add time went from 1.77 to 2.0. ROF went from 800 to 750. So yeah, MP5 is worse in this game.
|
|
|
Post by adyc00l on Nov 27, 2010 16:41:09 GMT -5
AK74 should have had the grip removed. It's not 0ver p0wered, bit it is definitely 0ver used!
|
|
dog
True Bro
woof
Posts: 10,608
|
Post by dog on Nov 27, 2010 18:14:23 GMT -5
COD4: AK-74u: - shorter knife range MP5 + longer knife range What?
|
|
|
Post by Corax on Nov 27, 2010 18:42:26 GMT -5
Woops. Sorry, my memory was probably fading. I think I meant faster recovery for the MP5. An SMG had faster a action recovery than a AR, which the AK-74u was categorized. Or something like that. Correct me if I am wrong.
|
|
|
Post by azrael1911 on Nov 27, 2010 18:49:50 GMT -5
On PC, the idle was a lot more bearable due to the minute, absolute movements of the mouse, but the favored choice between the two guns was probably much closer to equal on a large scale (though still with the AK in greater favor). 'Course, almost every organized "competition" got rid of the AK74's idle through mods, making it vastly superior than almost every other weapon in COD4 (next to the M4 and AK47 with their idle removed). That's hardly true. +5% speed was actually a huge deal in competitive circles, seeing as if you needed a high accuracy 95% run rifle you could have easily gone with the AK47 instead.
|
|
dog
True Bro
woof
Posts: 10,608
|
Post by dog on Nov 27, 2010 23:51:55 GMT -5
On PC, the idle was a lot more bearable due to the minute, absolute movements of the mouse, but the favored choice between the two guns was probably much closer to equal on a large scale (though still with the AK in greater favor). 'Course, almost every organized "competition" got rid of the AK74's idle through mods, making it vastly superior than almost every other weapon in COD4 (next to the M4 and AK47 with their idle removed). That's hardly true. +5% speed was actually a huge deal in competitive circles, seeing as if you needed a high accuracy 95% run rifle you could have easily gone with the AK47 instead. You forgot to factor in penetration, which is essential in CoD4 PC.
|
|
n1gh7
True Bro
Black Market Dealer
Posts: 11,718
|
Post by n1gh7 on Nov 28, 2010 0:56:02 GMT -5
Woops. Sorry, my memory was probably fading. I think I meant faster recovery for the MP5. An SMG had faster a action recovery than a AR, which the AK-74u was categorized. Or something like that. Correct me if I am wrong. MP5 was like pistols which were better than everything else.
|
|
|
Post by Corax on Nov 28, 2010 15:23:26 GMT -5
Thanks. I just updated my first post. I will try to make it as comprehensive as possible so when someone in the future makes another thread like this, I'll just link it to my post.
|
|