Re: Logical ideas for a future MW game « Reply #34 on Feb 19, 2011, 9:36pm »
Saw the changes, and the one that stands out to me was adopting a Crysis 2 style killstreak dogtag system.
In concept I've loved the idea, but when I played the demo, it really managed to bug me. There are a lot of times you kill someone, and it is really impractical to go to there body anytime soon (or pretty much any time you Snipe). In that game, it really benefited all those really annoying players who were just Meleeing all the time.
Now I would kind of like to think of a blend of the two but I can't really come up with something I can imagine working.
Now the Pointstreak system from MoH I wouldn't mind. Points for playing the objective get you killstreaks. Makes sense to me.
Re: Logical ideas for a future MW game « Reply #35 on Feb 20, 2011, 3:15am »
Problems I see:
Perks: - Stopping Power- The most overused perk in CoD4 - MW2, and for good reason: You win firefights. Even though on paper the difference seems subtle, that one bullet is usually enough for you to come out on top, after factoring lag and recoil.
Sure you can live though explosions or pump out killstreaks faster using different perks, but FJ only protect against explosions and people can't get killstreaks if they keep dying. The best balance method I could think of for SP is to make all headshots have a 3.5x multiplier instead of the usual 1.4x
SP Pro-Weapons shoot hitscans so faster bullets doesn't make sense, Increased range is interesting but potentially gamebreaking when using SMGs
- Jugg faces the same problem with SP, you win firefights. This time by living longer than the enemy.
Jugg pro is fine though
- Iron Lungs isn't effective enough to be a perk, let alone competing with any other perk, combing Iron Lungs with other perks has worked well
- Hardline Pro can be changed to reset killstreak reward, 1 kill after obtaining the final killstreak
- Painkiller and Prevention deathstreaks will be the new target of hate from the community, its also very annoying to shoot 2 sniper rounds into a guy and not kill because of painkiller
Killstreaks: - Care Package increase to 5 kills, 4 kills feels like too low for a potential AC-130
- Sentry Gun change to 4 kills, maybe more people will use them
- SAM turret change to 4 kills, even less people will use them at 5 kills
- EMP- Even at 12 kills, the MW2 EMP doesn't seem justified, maybe buff it by making the effects last longer and reducing the kill requirements to 10 kills
Re: Logical ideas for a future MW game « Reply #36 on Feb 20, 2011, 10:34pm »
my idea of what death streaks should be 1 death (any time you die) copy cat 3 deaths- pain killer : no flinch when shot 4 deaths-marydom : drop a FLASH grenade when you SPAWN 10 deaths- get automaticly kicked from the game (also, this would counter boosters in the process)
Re: Logical ideas for a future MW game « Reply #39 on Feb 21, 2011, 4:46am »
Thinking Time!
Videos #2&3 makes some sense.
I see the Rally idea, not in the same negative way as his youtube comments seem to be coming at it. It's a negative in that it doesn't actually seem that useful in the long run, not worth the nine-ish kills needed to get it.
As he says, it ultimately is just making you have to sit and watch the killcam instead of skipping it... for most gametypes. Whatever other Streak in the same count would probably be more desirable.
I don't think it would make the cut on account of being kind of too specific in its intent. Not because of any kind of "overpowered" scenarios it could make.
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There's no denying that Sleight of Hand (without Power sitting at the throne) is the reigning perk in slot two, with Steady Aim as its rivals and Warlord as an alternative.
While I can't agree with the return of Stopping Power, he mentioned Juggernaut. The two combined aren't as bad as one alone, but having Juggernaut alone with some tweaks...
0.75x modifier against only bullet damage.
Sniper rifles have a 2.0x headshot multiplier so that they still have a one shot kill capability against Juggernauts. (this would also help against the railgunners, make them raaaaaaaaaaage at all the "hitmarkers" and enforce more conservative sniping (I think maybe the IdleAmount on snipers could be cut to 20 and 30 in this scenario))
And special case for weapons with 20 MinDamage so they only have a 0.9x multiplier, making it drop to 18 damage instead of 15. That way, only one more shot is necessary instead of two.
There, Juggernaut. With things to deal with its "breaking things" it mild and other things to defend against certain types of foes.
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Imagine this: Ghost goes away. Cold-Blooded comes back.
Sleight of Hand, Juggernaut and Cold-Blooded in Slot 2.
Each of those three have strong pulling points for different kinds of players. Along with them, Bling/Warlord and maybe something else as alternative.
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While on the topic of Perks, another thing WoR mentioned. Something like the Player can't get multiple killstreaks unless he has Hardline or killstreaks can't attribute kills to the streak ("stackable?"). I wasn't really following, but there's a neat idea in there somewhere.
How about this? You pick your three killstreaks, but there's a mention in the killstreak menu that whatever you put in the third slot (limited to the highest streak chosen? Or just whatever of the three you want to put there?) is "Hardline Exclusive".
Without Hardline, the player only has two Killstreak slots. Hardline is the -1 to the Kill Count, Hardline Pro lets you run through all three Killstreaks.
Yeah, cut down on Killstreak use without actually making the killstreaks themselves weaker. Create a huge incentive for an alternative perk that would make players switch to it over the big hitters like Juggernaut and Sleight of Hand so that they can try and get a triple threat.
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I don't see much of, if any use of the SR-71 by anyone unless it comes in a Care Package. Is it really so common on consoles?
The big eye in the sky aside, there was one thing he mentioned that we can all agree with - the Spy Plane is obviously the most common Killstreak ever. Not only because it is a 3-kill, but because it hasn't had a worthy 3-kill rival.
We went over the idea that moving the SAM turret to 3-Kill would make it a very popular rival which would also lead to an often clear sky... I think that could be the way to go.
But it might be overkill. On the other hand, the threat of having your killstreaks being shot down instantly would cause players to avoid "vehicles" and instead opt for attack Killstreaks like airstrikes and bombings rather than helicopters and harriers. Those Streaks don't get much love anyway.
Or how about something else he mentioned that I would want to expand upon (it was something I wished for as far back as COD4 before OMA and Scav showed up)- an Ammo-Only Care Package as a 3-Kill. It falls in like any other crate, has unlimited uses (like the AMMO supplies in MW2 singleplayer) and stays on the ground for 30 seconds before vanishing. An alternative to Scavenger.
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All that together... I think Slot 1&2 Perks:
-Dump Ghost, put Cold-Blooded back in Slot 2
-Cold-Blooded, Juggernaut, Bling, Sleight of Hand and Hardline in Slot 2, all of them should be difficult to choose between.
-Flak Jacket, Scavenger, Marathon, One Man Army (and something else?) in Slot 1.
-Bring back One Man Army. Without Danger Close and with Flak Jacket, a guy trying that thing will find himself hard pressed at actually killing all/most of the approaching enemy.
-Instead of OMA Pro cutting down the OMA time (leave it at 5), allow the OMA Bag to be placed in the Primary (or maybe even the Equipment Slot) instead of the Secondary, further boosting its versatility while also keeping the longer switch time as a detriment.
-Flak Jacket will still be in Slot 1, Scavenger causing another schism of choice between Scavengers who may get liberal with with explosives and Flak guys running through to plow them while reloading.
-Let Scavenger resupply rockets -Impose the Black Ops idea where you only get one grenade at a time to the rockets. Without a full hand Grenade capacity, you won't get another Rocket. -Scavenger + Cold-Blooded + Rockets deals with the excessive Killstreaks and UAV problem like they did in MW2.
Re: Logical ideas for a future MW game « Reply #40 on Feb 21, 2011, 11:21am »
Cold Blooded, WoR's Hardline and Juggernaut would all be very competitive, but I don't think Bling or Sleight of Hand would hold their own in that tier. It may have been the most used perk of its tier in Mw2Blops, but in CoD 4, just how good was default SoH compared to Stopping Power or UAV Jammer? It had a fairly limited usage among challenge oriented gamers, but that's it. Faster ADS may hold some appeal, but I don't think many people would want to sacrifice an extra killstreak, "invisibility" or the ability to survive another bullet for faster ADS. It seems like more of a niche perk that it was in CoD 4, something for guns like the M1014 or M60. If you were in it purely for the ability to survive surprise confrontations, then wouldn't juggernaut also be a good alternative? Eh, I guess it would have to be tested. I suppose with Juggernaut present, there would be a lot more bullets wasted, and more emergency reloading required.
Bling was okay in MW2, but even with the breadth of super cool attachments that you could combine, it didn't really hit it off with most players. No way could it compete with Moar Healths or Killstreak Invulnerability.
As a possibility, Flak Jacket could be moved to tier 2. That way, a One Man Army Flak Jacket user could be an explosive troll, at the cost of Juggernaut or Cold Blooded. More prolific use of explosives could also make Flak Jacket a strong competitor in tier 2, i.e. scavenger replenishing launchers, bling Skill Cannons and whatnot. Plus, I think Flak Jacket/Juggernaut or Flak Jacket/Cold Blooded offer a little bit too much immunity to the hazards of a CoD battlefield. All encompassing resistances to damage? Protection from AI AND bombing run killstreaks? More explosive damage was never really something that people were willing to trade for stopping power, but I think more explosive resistance comes in handy more often, and is something that people would be willing to sacrifice bullet resistance.
Spy Plane may have been the most common 3 kill streak, but counter spy plane in my opinion is the most overpowered low killstreak. THAT needs to have a worthy competitor much more than the UAV does. Why? Because it's so much easier to counter the UAV. Use a Jammer perk. Watch your teammates'arrows and pay attention to your formation. Use traps and cunning (i.e. claymores and sitting in a corner lol). Or shoot it out of the sky. CUAV can only be countered by the last one. If it stays and SAM goes to 3, at least make it so that you can have SOME idea of what's going on without having to look around everywhere and check if your teammates aren't dead yet. I've mentioned before that it would be neat if it could oscillate between half fuzz and full fuzz, and not show the enemy dots at all. Just so you know where the green arrows are. Blackbird was iffy, I was initally under the impression that no-one would care for it since it wasn't a killwhore killstreak, but it turned out that it was, if only because of the dogger gunner. But I do agree that if Juggernaut returns with Cold Blooded, then Blackbird needs to gtfo.
Rally is an interesting idea, taken from World at War. It would be nice to have it as a backing for Domination/HQ/CTF etc., but it may also encourage the killwhore players who would otherwise not be helping very much. On one hand, it may encourage the kind of players who just TDM their way through a flag based game. On the other hand, it helps those people who are unfortunate enough for their teammates to weigh them down. Ultimately though, even though I am one of the guys in the second category, I'd have to advocate for the guys in the first category, since a team with good teamwork SHOULD be able to win over a bunch of guys TDMing. Although I still won't be one man arming against a full party any time soon, unless it's a game of Halo Reach against a 4 spartan party of two stoners and their girlfriends, which is pretty easy lol.
Another wrench in the works suggestion would be to make the third killstreak EXCLUSIVE to hardline users, i.e. be selected from a pool which can only be accessed by foregoing the other perks. Or, to only allow two killstreaks for any and all players, but allow hardline users to pick from a larger pool of KSRs. The UAV/CUAV could be one of these exclusive killstreaks, for example. I say "wrench in the works"because it's a pretty drastic change, and could cause a whole fustercluck of consequences down the road.
« Last Edit: Feb 21, 2011, 11:22am by chip sandwich »
Sleight of Hand, Juggernaut and Cold-Blooded in Slot 2.
Each of those three have strong pulling points for different kinds of players. Along with them, Bling/Warlord and maybe something else as alternative.
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I don't see much of, if any use of the SR-71 by anyone unless it comes in a Care Package. Is it really so common on consoles?
I fail to see how Sleight of Hand can even compete with Juggernaut or Cold Blooded. Faster reloading isn't worth being able to take another bullet or hide completely from killstreaks.
Blackbirds aren't very common outside of games where people are in parties together. Unfortunately, parties of people are very common, and I run Blackbird myself almost 100% of the time, with different setups. (3-4-8, 3-8-11, or 8-9-11 if I have a party)
Saw the changes, and the one that stands out to me was adopting a Crysis 2 style killstreak dogtag system.
In concept I've loved the idea, but when I played the demo, it really managed to bug me. There are a lot of times you kill someone, and it is really impractical to go to there body anytime soon (or pretty much any time you Snipe). In that game, it really benefited all those really annoying players who were just Meleeing all the time.
I agree that the melee system in Crysis 2 was a problem and would be a problem with a DogTag collection system for Killstreaks in a CoD game as well, unless the melee system were overhauled. I do think it needs to be changed regardless to the possible inclusion of a DogTag collection system for Killstreaks. I gave a few changes I'd like to see to the melee system in the Game Notes section of my posting.
The other problem you point out dealt with the Snipers and the DogTag collection system. Something you couldn't use in the demo but will be available when the game releases is a Perk that allows automatic DogTag collection, basically turning the DogTag Streaks into true Killstreaks. This isn't a bad solution to the Sniper problem also because it means that Snipers who don't wish to move the distance required to get the DogTag can turn their streaks into true KIllstreaks but in doing so will be giving up one of the other possibly helpful perks in order for that benefit.
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Now the Pointstreak system from MoH I wouldn't mind. Points for playing the objective get you killstreaks. Makes sense to me.
I have not played MoH so I can't extract any useful ideas from this game, but perhaps what you are saying is something worth looking into.
Perks: - Stopping Power- The most overused perk in CoD4 - MW2, and for good reason: You win firefights. Even though on paper the difference seems subtle, that one bullet is usually enough for you to come out on top, after factoring lag and recoil.
Sure you can live though explosions or pump out killstreaks faster using different perks, but FJ only protect against explosions and people can't get killstreaks if they keep dying. The best balance method I could think of for SP is to make all headshots have a 3.5x multiplier instead of the usual 1.4x
SP Pro-Weapons shoot hitscans so faster bullets doesn't make sense, Increased range is interesting but potentially gamebreaking when using SMGs
A Stopping Power perk that is integrated well with the weapons based on damage amounts and multipliers (max or minimum values for most guns should be set so that they can take advantage of a one-less-shot for a kill only on one side of their spectrum... meaning 1 less at max damage or 1 less at minimum damage, the only weapons which can take advantage of that benefit at both should obviously be hampered in other ways which will leave players to make tough decisions). The whole body multiplier system should also be looked at more closely and perhaps a more detailed whole body multiplier should be designed for the next game. If they were to do this then the multipliers could also be factors into the pro and cons of Stopping Power verses a Juggernaut perk.
In regards to your understanding of the Pro version I wrote, I went ahead and made a change in order to clarify my description. When I wrote that a weapon's bullet velocity would increase or max damage range, what I meant was that Stopping Power Pro should be viewed as providing an increase to a bullet's velocity (not in reality, but in theory) which would provide a slight increase to the weapon's max damage range. I also don't view this increase to be so great that it could turn a Submachine gun into an Assault Rifle, but simply increase it by some marginal amount which could provide a smallish range benefit.
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- Jugg faces the same problem with SP, you win firefights. This time by living longer than the enemy.
Jugg pro is fine though
My retort to your problem with Jugg is similar to my position with Stopping Power and of course they're meant to help you win firefights that's the point to the Top Tier perks or all perks for that matter.
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- Iron Lungs isn't effective enough to be a perk, let alone competing with any other perk, combing Iron Lungs with other perks has worked well
I think that Iron Lungs serve a purpose, but they serve a very specific purpose... Snipers or Scoped weapons which enact a steadying system of breathing. Maybe an argument can be made that there needs to be an even greater benefit to the perk than just being able to hold your breath longer and on that point I have already taken some thought too, but haven't figured out a solid idea yet.
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- Hardline Pro can be changed to reset killstreak reward, 1 kill after obtaining the final killstreak
There are a lot of good ideas for the Hardline perk in general and the description that I have for the perk is only the one I posted as I have had many other ideas myself for it. Should the perk be included with the Top Tier (or Tier 1) perks? This is a question I keep asking myself. If I were to make some of the more empowering changes then I think you could definitely make it a good challenger as a Top Tier perk.
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- Painkiller and Prevention deathstreaks will be the new target of hate from the community, its also very annoying to shoot 2 sniper rounds into a guy and not kill because of painkiller
The Painkiller perk as I have changed it shouldn't be a big deal... the damage reduction is less, the time it lasts is half as long, and it requires someone to die 5 times for it to enact.
The Prevention streak is a little bit stronger than the old Painkiller and last just as long but it requires someone to die 8 times in a row for it to enact which means someone is getting their ass kicked pretty bad... take some pity on them.
There are a couple other Deathstreaks that I'm thinking about adding, but they wouldn't be Deathstreaks you get to choose, they simply get enacted. These ideas came from reading some of the posts below yours and I think I'll mentioning it in the Game Notes section of my post.
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Killstreaks: - Care Package increase to 5 kills, 4 kills feels like too low for a potential AC-130
- Sentry Gun change to 4 kills, maybe more people will use them
- SAM turret change to 4 kills, even less people will use them at 5 kills
- EMP- Even at 12 kills, the MW2 EMP doesn't seem justified, maybe buff it by making the effects last longer and reducing the kill requirements to 10 kills
I think you're right about the Care Package and the Sentry Gun being switched... I'll do that. Don't agree with the SAM turret as it will completely stop several types of incoming enemy Killstreaks I think that the EMP at 12 would become a much more viable Killstreak than it was in MW2 at 15, although perhaps 11 is a better number for it. As far as the Tactical Nuke... Nuke boosting was more of a problem with those who used the Tactical Insert in game types like FFA and with the removal of Tactical Inserts in game types like FFA that should be less of a problem, but you do raise a good issue. So, some sort of method would need to be created in order to govern boosting in all games, I imagine that the method would focus around watching how people were using the Tactical Insert in game and devising some sort of booting system for those suspected of boosting.
I'd also like to add that with out the inclusion of stacking Killstreaks, boosting becomes more of a tedious task and will probably get discovered by a system which looks for the boosting techniques required to achieve it. The Tactical Nuke will be a difficult Killstreak to acquire and those who do earn it will have deserved it.
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Other: - Change the calculations between Large Penetration and Medium Penetration, currently the only difference between the two is near negligible
- Machine pistols can potentially overpower handguns, solely due to their ROF, like in MW2, there needs to be more drawbacks to the MPs
I think there should be 4 levels of penetration. 1 - Low, 2 - Medium, 3 - Large, and 4 - Extreme.
I think the Machine Pistols were balanced nearly 100% perfectly in MW2. Only the draw speed of the Raffis was perhaps a bit too good.
my idea of what death streaks should be 1 death (any time you die) copy cat 3 deaths- pain killer : no flinch when shot 4 deaths-marydom : drop a FLASH grenade when you SPAWN 10 deaths- get automaticly kicked from the game (also, this would counter boosters in the process)
Copy Cat at every death... hmmm, I don't know about that but it'll be taken into consideration
Your Painkiller idea is pretty cool.
Your Martyrdom idea is a joke, right?
I really like your 10 deathstreak idea although perhaps it should be increased to 12 or 15 for those really bad players who are just getting started and have no idea what they are doing.
I see the Rally idea, not in the same negative way as his youtube comments seem to be coming at it. It's a negative in that it doesn't actually seem that useful in the long run, not worth the nine-ish kills needed to get it.
As he says, it ultimately is just making you have to sit and watch the killcam instead of skipping it... for most gametypes. Whatever other Streak in the same count would probably be more desirable.
I don't think it would make the cut on account of being kind of too specific in its intent. Not because of any kind of "overpowered" scenarios it could make.
I agree
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There's no denying that Sleight of Hand (without Power sitting at the throne) is the reigning perk in slot two, with Steady Aim as its rivals and Warlord as an alternative.
While I can't agree with the return of Stopping Power, he mentioned Juggernaut. The two combined aren't as bad as one alone, but having Juggernaut alone with some tweaks...
0.75x modifier against only bullet damage.
Sniper rifles have a 2.0x headshot multiplier so that they still have a one shot kill capability against Juggernauts. (this would also help against the railgunners, make them raaaaaaaaaaage at all the "hitmarkers" and enforce more conservative sniping (I think maybe the IdleAmount on snipers could be cut to 20 and 30 in this scenario))
And special case for weapons with 20 MinDamage so they only have a 0.9x multiplier, making it drop to 18 damage instead of 15. That way, only one more shot is necessary instead of two.
There, Juggernaut. With things to deal with its "breaking things" it mild and other things to defend against certain types of foes.
So with adjustments like the one you point out for a possible Juggernaut perk being equally applied to a possible Stopping Power perk, don't you feel that this would simply create more options for diverse class setups without getting to the point of calling them "Overpowered". I mean they're still offering substantial benefits in comparison to themselves and the other perks their grouped with (Top Tier) that no matter what perk you choose you're going to be losing out on the equally competitive advantages of the others, right? That is the objective of grouping these perks together.
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Imagine this: Ghost goes away. Cold-Blooded comes back.
Sleight of Hand, Juggernaut and Cold-Blooded in Slot 2.
Each of those three have strong pulling points for different kinds of players. Along with them, Bling/Warlord and maybe something else as alternative.
Why do you think choosing the Bling/Warlord perk to be grouped with the Sleight of Hand, Juggernaut, & Cold-Blooded (Ghost) would be fair? I don't see the Bling/Warlord perk being nearly as valuable as the other three and I would even argue that Sleight of Hand shouldn't belong with the other two. There would be few which would be unless you bring back perks like I did in my post... perhaps the Hardline perk could if it's benefits were boosted in some new way.
like...
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While on the topic of Perks, another thing WoR mentioned. Something like the Player can't get multiple killstreaks unless he has Hardline or killstreaks can't attribute kills to the streak ("stackable?"). I wasn't really following, but there's a neat idea in there somewhere.
How about this? You pick your three killstreaks, but there's a mention in the killstreak menu that whatever you put in the third slot (limited to the highest streak chosen? Or just whatever of the three you want to put there?) is "Hardline Exclusive".
Without Hardline, the player only has two Killstreak slots. Hardline is the -1 to the Kill Count, Hardline Pro lets you run through all three Killstreaks.
Yeah, cut down on Killstreak use without actually making the killstreaks themselves weaker. Create a huge incentive for an alternative perk that would make players switch to it over the big hitters like Juggernaut and Sleight of Hand so that they can try and get a triple threat.
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I don't see much of, if any use of the SR-71 by anyone unless it comes in a Care Package. Is it really so common on consoles?
Yes. I can't believe it isn't on the PC. I don't agree with WoR in that it breaks Black Ops, but it certainly should require more kills than 8, which is why I list it (Eye-in-the-Sky) as requiring 11.
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The big eye in the sky aside, there was one thing he mentioned that we can all agree with - the Spy Plane is obviously the most common Killstreak ever. Not only because it is a 3-kill, but because it hasn't had a worthy 3-kill rival.
We went over the idea that moving the SAM turret to 3-Kill would make it a very popular rival which would also lead to an often clear sky... I think that could be the way to go.
But it might be overkill. On the other hand, the threat of having your killstreaks being shot down instantly would cause players to avoid "vehicles" and instead opt for attack Killstreaks like airstrikes and bombings rather than helicopters and harriers. Those Streaks don't get much love anyway.
I disagree that there's never been a rival to the Spy Plane. The RC-XD introduced in Black Ops was getting a lot of run, especially prior to the introduction of the patch which toned down the RC-XD's explosion.
Do you think that a fair change would be to make the Sentry Turret a 3 Killstreak as well as keeping the RC-XD as it is now as the other 3 Killstreak. Then introduce the Spy Plane / UAV as a 4 Killstreak with the SAM Turret as the other at 4. Counter-Spy Plane and the Care Package would then come in at 5. What do you think?
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Or how about something else he mentioned that I would want to expand upon (it was something I wished for as far back as COD4 before OMA and Scav showed up)- an Ammo-Only Care Package as a 3-Kill. It falls in like any other crate, has unlimited uses (like the AMMO supplies in MW2 singleplayer) and stays on the ground for 30 seconds before vanishing. An alternative to Scavenger.
Not a bad idea, but I don't think it would be a very good choice as a specific Killstreak reward just because no-body would want to run it as it seems likely to benefit both teams, but I do like the idea being integrated into the Care Package Killstreak instead of the current one-time only ammo reload.
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All that together... I think Slot 1&2 Perks:
-Dump Ghost, put Cold-Blooded back in Slot 2
-Cold-Blooded, Juggernaut, Bling, Sleight of Hand and Hardline in Slot 2, all of them should be difficult to choose between.
-Flak Jacket, Scavenger, Marathon, One Man Army (and something else?) in Slot 1.
-Bring back One Man Army. Without Danger Close and with Flak Jacket, a guy trying that thing will find himself hard pressed at actually killing all/most of the approaching enemy.
-Instead of OMA Pro cutting down the OMA time (leave it at 5), allow the OMA Bag to be placed in the Primary (or maybe even the Equipment Slot) instead of the Secondary, further boosting its versatility while also keeping the longer switch time as a detriment.
-Flak Jacket will still be in Slot 1, Scavenger causing another schism of choice between Scavengers who may get liberal with with explosives and Flak guys running through to plow them while reloading.
-Let Scavenger resupply rockets -Impose the Black Ops idea where you only get one grenade at a time to the rockets. Without a full hand Grenade capacity, you won't get another Rocket. -Scavenger + Cold-Blooded + Rockets deals with the excessive Killstreaks and UAV problem like they did in MW2.
I really believe CoD should get away from 3 separate Perk slots and instead go to 2 groups where you get to select 1 perk from the Tier 1 group and any 2 perks from the Tier 2 group. The first group (Top Tier) would be the perks which really dictate the class's setup and each provide some type of solid competitive advantage over Tier 2 perks.
I can't believe you want to see the OMA perk return... Why? However, if it were to make a return, then seeing it come back as an equipment choice would be the most logical way.
Did you see the list of changes I made and what did you think of those?
I'll probably incorporate some of your excellent ideas.
Cold Blooded, WoR's Hardline and Juggernaut would all be very competitive, but I don't think Bling or Sleight of Hand would hold their own in that tier. It may have been the most used perk of its tier in Mw2Blops, but in CoD 4, just how good was default SoH compared to Stopping Power or UAV Jammer? It had a fairly limited usage among challenge oriented gamers, but that's it. Faster ADS may hold some appeal, but I don't think many people would want to sacrifice an extra killstreak, "invisibility" or the ability to survive another bullet for faster ADS. It seems like more of a niche perk that it was in CoD 4, something for guns like the M1014 or M60. If you were in it purely for the ability to survive surprise confrontations, then wouldn't juggernaut also be a good alternative? Eh, I guess it would have to be tested. I suppose with Juggernaut present, there would be a lot more bullets wasted, and more emergency reloading required.
Bling was okay in MW2, but even with the breadth of super cool attachments that you could combine, it didn't really hit it off with most players. No way could it compete with Moar Healths or Killstreak Invulnerability.
As a possibility, Flak Jacket could be moved to tier 2. That way, a One Man Army Flak Jacket user could be an explosive troll, at the cost of Juggernaut or Cold Blooded. More prolific use of explosives could also make Flak Jacket a strong competitor in tier 2, i.e. scavenger replenishing launchers, bling Skill Cannons and whatnot. Plus, I think Flak Jacket/Juggernaut or Flak Jacket/Cold Blooded offer a little bit too much immunity to the hazards of a CoD battlefield. All encompassing resistances to damage? Protection from AI AND bombing run killstreaks? More explosive damage was never really something that people were willing to trade for stopping power, but I think more explosive resistance comes in handy more often, and is something that people would be willing to sacrifice bullet resistance.
Couldn't agree more.
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Spy Plane may have been the most common 3 kill streak, but counter spy plane in my opinion is the most overpowered low killstreak. THAT needs to have a worthy competitor much more than the UAV does. Why? Because it's so much easier to counter the UAV. Use a Jammer perk. Watch your teammates'arrows and pay attention to your formation. Use traps and cunning (i.e. claymores and sitting in a corner lol). Or shoot it out of the sky. CUAV can only be countered by the last one. If it stays and SAM goes to 3, at least make it so that you can have SOME idea of what's going on without having to look around everywhere and check if your teammates aren't dead yet. I've mentioned before that it would be neat if it could oscillate between half fuzz and full fuzz, and not show the enemy dots at all. Just so you know where the green arrows are. Blackbird was iffy, I was initally under the impression that no-one would care for it since it wasn't a killwhore killstreak, but it turned out that it was, if only because of the dogger gunner. But I do agree that if Juggernaut returns with Cold Blooded, then Blackbird needs to gtfo.
I really like your idea of the effects of the Counter-Spy Plane (CUAV), but it would need to be pretty fuzzy, you should be able to just barely make out your teammates positions in its best condition. Perhaps if the Counter-Spy Plane (CUAV) is directly overhead then it's full fuzz.
Eye-in-the-Sky just needs to have the kills required for it turned up.
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Rally is an interesting idea, taken from World at War. It would be nice to have it as a backing for Domination/HQ/CTF etc., but it may also encourage the killwhore players who would otherwise not be helping very much. On one hand, it may encourage the kind of players who just TDM their way through a flag based game. On the other hand, it helps those people who are unfortunate enough for their teammates to weigh them down. Ultimately though, even though I am one of the guys in the second category, I'd have to advocate for the guys in the first category, since a team with good teamwork SHOULD be able to win over a bunch of guys TDMing. Although I still won't be one man arming against a full party any time soon, unless it's a game of Halo Reach against a 4 spartan party of two stoners and their girlfriends, which is pretty easy lol.
I agree with Den... not a fan of Rally its too gametype specific.
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Another wrench in the works suggestion would be to make the third killstreak EXCLUSIVE to hardline users, i.e. be selected from a pool which can only be accessed by foregoing the other perks. Or, to only allow two killstreaks for any and all players, but allow hardline users to pick from a larger pool of KSRs. The UAV/CUAV could be one of these exclusive killstreaks, for example. I say "wrench in the works"because it's a pretty drastic change, and could cause a whole fustercluck of consequences down the road.
Not a bad idea, but I think your right it will alter things a bit too much for everyone to accept.
Re: Logical ideas for a future MW game « Reply #47 on Feb 21, 2011, 5:20pm »
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I can't believe you want to see the OMA perk return... Why?
Because the level of versatility it offers is unparalleled. Four of my seven classes in MW2 were vastly different just because of OMA and I would switch between them rapidly to take on whatever I encountered. Without it, I'd probably have shoehorned myself into a very few narrow, redundant archetypes like in COD4. I probably never would bother using Claymores, Lightweight, LMGs, Sniper Rifles, Ninja, lots of weapons and many other things without it.
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While Sleight of Hand would probably be one of the least favorites in Slot 2, I don't think it would fare much better in my suggested Slot 1. It had a presence in MW2 S&D and TDM where life expectancy was short and for players using the Railgun technique. But outside of that, I didn't see it being used as much as Scavenger and Marathon.
...How about... Crossover Perks? Perks that exist in two or all three slots, allowing you to pick it in whichever one you want. Sleight of Hand in Slot 1&2. Among Flak Jacket, Scavenger and Marathon...
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Juggernaut has ways of reducing its effectiveness (like removing the bullet defenses for the head and legs, turning it more into Armor Vest) and making it fit the "one more bullet needed", but there's not much that can be done with "One less bullet needed" except getting rid of it.
I was thinking of but unsure of something like changing Stopping Power so that instead of a damage increase, it would extend the Damage Range. A 1.6x Range multiplier or so.
SMG at 750-1000 would be boosted up to 1200-1600
...A silenced SMG at 350-700 would be boosted up to 560-1120, a nice divide that doesn't fully negate the max damage, but extends the min damage a bit beyond the unsilenced normal.
An assault rifle at 1500-2000 would go to 2400-3200. A suppressed rifle from 500-1000 to 800-1600. Not as effective as the SMG and only slightly better than the suppressed SMG, so the SMG class will maintain a lot of its close range superiority.
And shotguns would have a great range boost.
But then that's where it gets messy. Some weapons won't have any use of of a range boost, LMGs and Sniper Rifles... BUT with Suppressors...
The LMG and Rifle when silenced will still retain their 70s and 40s and 30s for... 1000 inches and drop to 50 and 30 and 20 at 1250 inches. Combine them with Stopping Power and that range stays strong up to 1600-2000 inches, giving them Assault Rifle range.
AND even though it doesn't have the damage boost, it will still cancel out the Armor Vest reduction, making it extra useful for Snipers wary of Armor Vest users.
I can't believe you want to see the OMA perk return... Why?
Because the level of versatility it offers is unparalleled. Four of my seven classes in MW2 were vastly different just because of OMA and I would switch between them rapidly to take on whatever I encountered. Without it, I'd probably have shoehorned myself into a very few narrow, redundant archetypes like in COD4. I probably never would bother using Claymores, Lightweight, LMGs, Sniper Rifles, Ninja, lots of weapons and many other things without it.
Okay, so in that case bringing it back as an equipment can fill that role. If using it switched the class entirely then that would mean that the only way you could make another switch in game would be to choose another class which had that as an equipment choice and by selecting it as an equipment choice you wouldn't be selecting classes which would have a Grenade Launcher or Launchers as secondaries. This would be a good thing because the major problem with OMA in MW2 was that people were using it in objective games to sit on one side of a map and shoot tubes at objective areas on another side, this method of incorporating it addresses those issues and still allows the switching of classes in game to be a viable option. See the compiled list to see how it would fit the game with everything else.
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While Sleight of Hand would probably be one of the least favorites in Slot 2, I don't think it would fare much better in my suggested Slot 1. It had a presence in MW2 S&D and TDM where life expectancy was short and for players using the Railgun technique. But outside of that, I didn't see it being used as much as Scavenger and Marathon.
I used it quite a bit in MW2 and all the time in Black Ops.
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...How about... Crossover Perks? Perks that exist in two or all three slots, allowing you to pick it in whichever one you want. Sleight of Hand in Slot 1&2. Among Flak Jacket, Scavenger and Marathon...
I have already incorporated this idea into the list I compiled. I think this is the biggest change we should see going forward. Perks should be divided into two Tiers. Most will be in the second Tier group and a select few should be considered for the Top Tier. Those in the Top Tier would provide the best competitive advantages and by choosing one over another you're sacrificing something substantial in order to gain something substantial. Obviously you'd only be able to select one of those Top Tier perks. You'd then be able to select any two of the second Tier perks allowing you to really customize your class load-out. Please look over the list.
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Juggernaut has ways of reducing its effectiveness (like removing the bullet defenses for the head and legs, turning it more into Armor Vest) and making it fit the "one more bullet needed", but there's not much that can be done with "One less bullet needed" except getting rid of it.
The Vest idea is a great one as it wouldn't provide protection to the whole body and fits better as a realistic reality perk for the game. The way I currently have it setup right now in the list, the Juggernaut perk provides protection to everywhere except the head, but I note below the description that were the multipliers for the Head simply turned up for the Sniper Rifles (or DMRs too) then the protection could be provided for the whole body instead. Though, I don't really like that last idea as much as I like the Vest idea. I think I will incorporate this one ASAP.
Quote:
I was thinking of but unsure of something like changing Stopping Power so that instead of a damage increase, it would extend the Damage Range. A 1.6x Range multiplier or so.
SMG at 750-1000 would be boosted up to 1200-1600
...A silenced SMG at 350-700 would be boosted up to 560-1120, a nice divide that doesn't fully negate the max damage, but extends the min damage a bit beyond the unsilenced normal.
An assault rifle at 1500-2000 would go to 2400-3200. A suppressed rifle from 500-1000 to 800-1600. Not as effective as the SMG and only slightly better than the suppressed SMG, so the SMG class will maintain a lot of its close range superiority.
And shotguns would have a great range boost.
But then that's where it gets messy. Some weapons won't have any use of of a range boost, LMGs and Sniper Rifles... BUT with Suppressors...
The LMG and Rifle when silenced will still retain their 70s and 40s and 30s for... 1000 inches and drop to 50 and 30 and 20 at 1250 inches. Combine them with Stopping Power and that range stays strong up to 1600-2000 inches, giving them Assault Rifle range.
AND even though it doesn't have the damage boost, it will still cancel out the Armor Vest reduction, making it extra useful for Snipers wary of Armor Vest users.
A Range boost instead of a raw damage boost.
Range boost is the idea I had for Stopping Power Pro and the range distances I was thinking about match what your suggesting.
Also, I mention in the Game Notes section that weapons should be designed so that the Max and Minimum damage amounts could only take advantage of the one-less-shot at either their max or min ranges unless the gun was designed with a severe hampering, then inclusion of one-less-shot for the kill at both ends of its damage spectrum would simply be an offset for the other things the gun has to deal with. Just wanted to let you know that the game's weapons should be designed to balance the potential advantage of the Stopping Power perk.
Re: Logical ideas for a future MW game « Reply #49 on Feb 21, 2011, 7:03pm »
That is a really sweet idea Den.
I also like WoR's Rally idea. Especially on PC, where the games tend to be larger, it would be extremely useful for objective games, and even of some use in TDM, since it would let people get to choke points, reinforce, take a minute to reload/swap weapons, etc. It's functionally a "catch your breath" function, and that's awesome for the type of player I am. I never play TDM, and want to win more than I want a K/D ratio of 3+.
They need to do something radical to alter MW3 in order to stay relevant. I really don't see them rolling out yet another game with a couple perk tiers altered and some updated weapons and killstreaks.
In that vein, I would like to see a "perk" system that's organized more around "equipment", or "equipment slots". Something where you'd pick a benefit on your "chest", "head", etc. Something like this:
Head: Tac Mask: Obvious. Would also add Pro feature of "Increased Hold Breath recycle time" possibly by adding in small oxygen tanks to saturate inhaled air and reduce recovery time
Hacker: Some kind of EMR detection system
Hardline: Enhanced Comm systems allow you to communicate across channels and access/override/re-task assets; Basically you get killstreaks faster and have access to more (like Den's idea of starting w/ 2 and HL Pro giving you a third)
Chest: -Jugg: Obvious. More armor plate, or alternatively they could go more futuristic with this as they choose.
- Cold-Blooded equivalent: Power supply for optical camo system, storage for liquid coolant circulation, etc.
-Stopping Power: Shoulder inserts containing "non-newtonian fluid" or analogue that absorbs increased recoil, allowing for a higher grain count of propellant without sacrificing accuracy.
-Sleight of Hand "effect": Quick-release mag pouches, possibly also quick weapon swap? Shouldn't be on the same slot IMO.
Legs: -Lightweight: Obvious. Would merge Marathon with this just for simplicity sake possibly.
-Scavenger: Ammo packs increase starting ammo, and additional storage allows for you to pick up ammo off bodies and have a place to store it (since you only ever recover "one" item at a time from Scavenger, this wouldn't really be a big problem)
Arms: -Steady Aim: Battery powered small-scale gyro mount system? Dunno, this would be a toughie... Would probably also add in the "Reduced Flinch" effect as well as it just fits
-------------
This is all off the top of my head and there are a ton of balancing issues with things laid out in this specific way, but it gets my point across. I would just like to see a graphical model that reflects the equipment I'm wearing that creates the effect I'm looking for. Something like Splinter Cell: Conviction where the different add-ons for your suit add ammo pouches, grenade pouches, bandoliers, etc.
Re: Logical ideas for a future MW game « Reply #50 on Feb 22, 2011, 12:35am »
Range increase instead of damage for Stopping Power is probably the best idea I've read in a while. Either that, or make the ACOG actually increase weapon range. Maybe then it would serve a purpose, outside of the oddities like the M16. Oh what I wouldn't give for a silenced M16 that kills in one burst at long range...
Joined: Jul 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 540 Location: Illinois, USA
Re: Logical ideas for a future MW game « Reply #51 on Feb 22, 2011, 1:33am »
I honestly think the next big thing we need is an expanded attachment system. Sights would be chosen separately from the rest as well as underbarrels.
Sights (assault rifles): Iron Sight - Default. Red Dot Sight / Clones (Reflex, Holo) - 50 MS increase in ADS time. ACOG Scope - 100 MS increase in ADS time. Thermal Scope - 100 MS increase in ADS time.
So the benefit would be the ability to pick your own sight, with a slight increase in ADS time
Other Attachments (still assault rifles): Silencer - No changes. FMJ - No changes. Bayonet - I kinda wish this would return, it would only be on some rifles if any. Same effects as WaW's. Tactical Knife - This seriously should be an "attachment" for any weapon. It would make your character always hold a knife in his hand while holding his weapon so he could quickly knife. (see Solid Snake and how he holds any weapon in Metal Gear). Extended Mags - No changes. Dual Mags - No changes. Grip - I really would love to see grips on ARs, SMGs, and LMGs. Snipers don't need them. Shotguns should by default have them on.
Primaries: ARs SMGs LMGs Snipers Riot Shield (<3)
Secondaries: Shotguns Launchers Underbarrels One Man Army
Side Arms: Pistols Machine Pistols
This is kinda combining CoD4 and MW2 ideas. CoD4 had perk one basically being an explosives perk. This new system would be that same one, with shotguns also put in that slot, and One Man Army taking up that slot when you use it. No attachments on weapons in that slot (Shotguns really never needed them anyways).
Main Perk (pick 1): One Man Army Stopping Power (den's version) Flak Jacket Cold Blooded Scavenger
Secondary Perks (pick 2): Sleight of Hand Steady Aim Lightweight Marathon Ninja Warlord Hacker Hardline Scout Tactical Mask
And of course there would be a lethal grenade, tactical grenade, and equipment slot.
Perhaps breaking up pro perks into seperate perks and tossing them in the secondary perks slot and giving you like 4 choices would work too.
Re: Logical ideas for a future MW game « Reply #52 on Feb 22, 2011, 9:22am »
So are you saying that players would get Launchers/Shotguns in addition to Pistols/MPs? Seems a bit over the top, although I really agree with making shotguns a "CoD4 Perk 1" style weapon. I like the sight idea as well, but only if ACOG increased range or something. As it is now, it would just screw you over even more with most weapons by adding to the ADS time. Also, Scavenger seems a bit outclassed in the perk 1 slot. If you have access to a Primary, Launcher/Shotgun, and Pistol/MP, then running out of ammo on one weapon would be less significant.
Stupid question time: do modern soldiers even use bayonets anymore? I figure that shotguns and SMGs/PDWs should pretty much render them useless. I'm sure they still use combat knives, but I don't think mounting one on your gun is really necessary anymore. In game though, I loved using bayonets. They're fun, and a lot more reliable than the Masterkey imo.
So are you saying that players would get Launchers/Shotguns in addition to Pistols/MPs? Seems a bit over the top, although I really agree with making shotguns a "CoD4 Perk 1" style weapon. I like the sight idea as well, but only if ACOG increased range or something. As it is now, it would just screw you over even more with most weapons by adding to the ADS time. Also, Scavenger seems a bit outclassed in the perk 1 slot. If you have access to a Primary, Launcher/Shotgun, and Pistol/MP, then running out of ammo on one weapon would be less significant.
Stupid question time: do modern soldiers even use bayonets anymore? I figure that shotguns and SMGs/PDWs should pretty much render them useless. I'm sure they still use combat knives, but I don't think mounting one on your gun is really necessary anymore. In game though, I loved using bayonets. They're fun, and a lot more reliable than the Masterkey imo.
It already does add to ADS time. And yeah, I just sorta threw Scav in there. Typed that all up late last night <_<
No, bayonets really stopped being used after vietnam to my knowledge.
No, bayonets really stopped being used after vietnam to my knowledge.
Dug this information up...
Modern warfare, does still see the use of the bayonet for close-quarter fighting. The British Army performed bayonet charges during the Falklands War, the Second Gulf War, and the war in Afghanistan. Recently in Iraq at the Battle of Danny Boy, the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders bayonet charged mortar positions filled with over 100 Mahdi Army members. The ensuing hand to hand fighting resulted in an estimate of over 40 insurgents killed and 35 bodies collected (many floated down the river) and 9 prisoners. Sergeant Brian Wood, of the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment, was awarded the Military Cross for his part in the battle. This engagement brought to notice the tactical use of the weapon for close combat and the sheer psychological effect it can have. Similarly, in 2009, Lieutenant James Adamson, aged 24, of the Royal Regiment of Scotland was awarded the Military Cross for a bayonet charge whilst on a tour of duty in Afghanistan: after shooting one Taliban fighter dead Adamson had run out of ammunition when another enemy appeared. Adamson immediately charged the second Taliban fighter and bayoneted him. All of these situations demonstrate that the bayonet remains an effective and psychologically powerful last resort weapon even on the modern battlefield.
In the U.S. Marine Corps, trainees still get their first instruction in using the bayonet as a lethal weapon on their 10th day. The essence of bayonet fighting as taught in the Corps is to spring forward from a modified crouch and thrust the blade into the enemy. Recruits are taught how to use a bayonet to push aside an enemy's weapon. In a modern context, bayonets are used as a "last resort" weapon for close quarters combat e.g. situations where a soldier has run out of ammunition, or if his weapon has jammed or is damaged. Training in the use of the bayonet has been given precedence long after the combat role of the bayonet declined as it is thought to increase desired aggressiveness in troops.
As of 2002, the U.S. Marine Corps is also issuing small quantities of new bayonets of a different design from the standard bayonet (the M9), with an 8-inch Bowie knife-style blade and no fuller, manufactured by the Ontario Knife Company of New York. This new bayonet, the OKC-3S, is cosmetically similar to the Marines' famed Ka-Bar fighting knife. The weapon upgrade is part of a push begun four years ago by then-Commandant Gen. James L. Jones to expand and toughen hand-to-hand combat training for Marines, including more training in the martial arts and knife fighting. The new bayonet — with a 8" (20 cm) long, 1-3/8" (3.49 cm) wide, 0.2" (0.51 cm) thick steel blade, and weighing 1.25 lbs (0.57 kg) with its sheath — is slightly longer, thicker, and heavier than the current M9. A sharper point and serrations near the handle help penetrate body armor that many modern adversaries wear. In one demonstration, a prototype was able to pierce a punching bag covered with aircraft aluminium and a ballistic vest. Also, the handle is more oval than round to prevent repetitive-stress injuries during training.
In general, bayonets are not fitted to weapons except when such emergency situations are at hand. This is because a bayonet will impair long-range accuracy. The reason for this is because the extra weight of the bayonet affects the balance of the rifle barrel, which alters its sighting characteristics. Despite the limitations of the bayonet, many modern assault rifles retain a bayonet lug and the weapon is still issued in many armies.
...I personally hope to see it come back, but it would have to have its drawbacks. One would be that it would be considered an under the barrel attachment for rifles, so you couldn't use the under-barrel Shotgun, Flamethrower, Grenade Launcher, Foregrip, and Bi-Pod if you were to choose it. Another drawback would be the lengthy time required to recover from the thrust animation and the strike window could be a little bit smaller than the standard melee system... meaning you'd have to make sure your target was in front of your thrust when enacting the melee or you'll miss your target. One other idea would be to have it cause a reduction in the Rifle's max damage range, similar to a Suppressor attachment but not as dramatic.
If it were not to be considered for a weapon attachment, then another way of implementing it, and say the tactical knife for that matter, would be by having them together as a piece of equipment. The Bayonet would require you to fasten it to your weapon in game and the Tactical Knife would require the time to pull out the knife and re-situate your firearm with it (the knife) in hand. In any case the additional downfall in this method would be that it would take away your equipment slot from being used for something else, but I think I like the attachment route better because it would be easier to implement for all weapons which make sense with them verses having the equipment available but awkward for weapon's which typically don't get used with those attachments.
Re: Logical ideas for a future MW game « Reply #55 on Feb 23, 2011, 1:45am »
I just wanted to throw out a deathstreak idea I had. Since the purpose is to help people who are being spawntrapped (although this is a notion I don't think I believe in... If they were bad enough to be spawntrapped once, they're probably bad enough to be spawntrapped multiple times), why not have a deathstreak at like 5 deaths or something that allows you to choose between 3-5 areas of the map to spawn at. Or just make it so you spawn away from your teammates (as well as enemies of course). That's your best bet at helping people who are spawntrapped if you ask me.
Re: Logical ideas for a future MW game « Reply #56 on Feb 23, 2011, 4:49pm »
Speaking of spawns, you know what I miss? BC:2 spawns. Not the squad spawns, since I believe that causes more problems than it's worth, but the objective spawns. Take Dom for example: your team has A and B. You die, you can spawn near A or B. Rushers and offensive campers would love to pick B, and the cowardly campers or snipers can just hang out by A, farther from the action. Although CoD maps are way too small for this to work, and the Tactical Insertion is better in most cases. It could be some form of Deathstreak though, as mentioned above.
Re: Logical ideas for a future MW game « Reply #58 on Feb 25, 2011, 12:39pm »
There was a guy in my platoon that was a frickin' psychopath with his M9. He would sharpen it non-stop... Guy was one of those "knife people" who had like a bajillion different knives and throwing stars and crap. Apparently he uses a combat tomahawk now, which I think is pretty bad ass lol.
We didn't get as much training with them as the Marines get, just an organizational philosophy thing. I think they actually discontinued it recently? Probably something we'll regret, just like when we cut back on dog-fighting training before Vietnam >.<
We didn't get as much training with them as the Marines get, just an organizational philosophy thing. I think they actually discontinued it recently? Probably something we'll regret, just like when we cut back on dog-fighting training before Vietnam >.<
I've read that the Army (only) doesn't issue Bayonet's to the majority of their troops as standard procedure anymore. This is not the case for the Marines, they have actually updated their Bayonet's to the OKC-3S over the older M9.
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