Re: MW3 Noob Gun List « Reply #90 on May 6, 2012, 12:04am »
3 things to say.
First, all these noob gun arguments are stupid. 13 year old boys will say that everything except 1337zor qui1ck$c9p3rs are noob. AA-12 users will say that an ACR is noob because it can kill further than 5 meters. ACR users will say the type 95 is noob because it kills fast. Type 95 users will say the AA-12 is noob because it's automatic. And etc. Personally, I'm an emblem whore, so I use every gun so get the titles and stuff for them. All logic regarding noob guns is full of holes. Good players who use the ACR are noobs because they're giving themselves a huge advantage. Bad players who use the ACR are noobs because they're only doing well because of their weapon. Bad players who use the CM901 are noobs because...well, they're bad players and they're idiots for using such a doo-doo gun. Good players who use the CM901...are not noobs. So the only people who aren't noobs are good players who gimp themselves with a bad weapon. Great...
Second, player skill is INCREDIBLY relative. I'm a good player, but that's only because there are a huge amount of players worse than me. I've gone 51-10 with a vanilla m16. I've also gone 10-10 with a silenced ACR. So judging weapon performance based on your own performance is foolish. If we took the examples i mentioned, you could say that the m16 is WAYYY better than the acr, even though it's completely inferior in ever way. Which brings me to my last point.
Some guns are simply better than others, and iw5000, no matter how well you do with a gun, it doesn't make it better. For example, the p90 is considered by some to be equal to the mp7. It's not. Why? Let's look at several scenarios that don't factor in player skill.
1. close range. The mp7 fires faster and does equal damage. The mp7 is better. 2. mp7 damage cutoff range. The mp7 does less dps than the p90, and short range is unaffected by the p90's greater recoil. The p90 is better 3. med range+. Both the mp7 has greater dps and less recoil. It's better. 4. Shooting at a target in cover. The p90's recoil might kick in before enough shots have been fired to kill. The mp7 has almost no recoil, so it's better. 5. Having to take on 3+ enemies in rapid succession. The p90 is better because it has a bigger clip.
These are the most common unique scenarios. Most encounters will fall under scenario 1 or 3. The others represent less common situations, that cannot be controlled by you; you cannot force your opponent to stay in cover or force enemies to charge you in groups of 3.
So from this, the mp7 emerges as the gun that's simply better. Same with other guns like the acr. If I'm shooting a guy from far away, the recoil is entirely out of my control. The ACR has a greater chance of the first 4 shots landing on target than the AK, CM, or G36, so it's simply better at long range. If you compare guns in the 5 scenarios I mentioned, it's easy to determine which is better.
Re: MW3 Noob Gun List « Reply #91 on May 6, 2012, 12:45am »
All that means is you can't judge a gun by single performances.
Me: Go into BLOPS FFA w/ Olympia (No Ghost) VS Ghost FAMAS (Or the "Famas" as 3arc puts it) *Struggles to win* Gay-mes- 2.5KD, 2KD, 3KD, 1.5 KD....
"Switches to rifle* . Next gay-mes: 30KD, 15KD, 30KD,..10KD, 15KD....
*Goes back to Olympia* Next gaymes- 1.5 KD, 2KD.... You get the point.
I didn't magically become MLG Pro by using a rifle and I didn't magically gain down syndrome by using the Olympia class. A nub gun to me is any gun that magically hits the "E-Z Mode" button in game. The type of gun where when you pick it up you think to yourself "Did some set this lobby to Recruit level difficulty?". I don't even have think when using the rifles as they pretty much play the game for me as opposed to "gosh darn golly gee whiz, what my next move with the HS-10? Do I flank around, take the back route, patrol X area or what?".
Also what I despise the most out of nub guns is that they give the false illusion of skill to bad players. How many times have you seen a trash talking 15th prestiger in BLOPS who goes on about how "pro" he is with his 3KD or whatever and when you look at his combat record: 1. 60K Famas kills, 2. 2k Python kills 3. Everything else below 1000.
Joined: Nov 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 1,645 Location: Europe
Re: MW3 Noob Gun List « Reply #92 on May 6, 2012, 12:55am »
Ofc if we define : noob guns do not exist, then they do not exist. Lack of definition makes this thread pointless. My private definition is: noob gun does not have to be fired twice to kill effectively comparing with others. (for full auto weapons) Using that def ACR is noob. U can say my def is wrong, but not that noob guns do not exist.
It is funny to argue that noob guns do not exist without defining them first...
Lets define that a woman is 'bad man'. So simple to show that women do not exist, LOL, there are only good and bad men.
Why the Type 95? Since it's burst fire only, you have to be very accurate. Because of the delay between bursts, the rate of fire is 473 RPM, so a fully automatic weapon is better most of the time.
Re: MW3 Noob Gun List « Reply #99 on May 8, 2012, 9:28am »
Not many use it on ps3 though. It seems to be popular on xbox only. I'm guessing this is due to the metagame being separated into three different systems. It just evolved differently I guess.
Re: MW3 Noob Gun List « Reply #100 on May 8, 2012, 10:35am »
The Type 95 +RF in conjunction with Stalker can do some downright ridiculous things. Nothing like pulling the trigger three times and killing three SMG users at almost point blank range while strafing and jumping. It's an odd one for a burst-fire AR in that it's much better at closer ranges and weakest at longer ones.
Ofc if we define : noob guns do not exist, then they do not exist. Lack of definition makes this thread pointless.
definitions have been provided...
'Noob Gun'- ( n ) - (New b gun ) - A classification leveled on a FPS gun. The classification/label is generally put onto the gun, in an effort to tell opponents what guns to use, in order to attempt to level the playing feel. See, "Players who suck in FPS", to review those most likely to throw out the "Noob Gun" charge. Also see the subsection "Quick-scopers", for the subset usually most angry about "Noob Guns", their common refrain, ..."He did better than me, but he doesn't use a weapon that requires skill..." ...Most leveled charges of 'Noob Guns' have the indirect affect of further increasing that guns popularity, as other "Players who Suck" (PwS) tend to then flock to those guns.
Some guns are simply better than others, and iw5000, no matter how well you do with a gun, it doesn't make it better. For example, the p90 is considered by some to be equal to the mp7. It's not. Why? Let's look at several scenarios that don't factor in player skill.
1. close range. The mp7 fires faster and does equal damage. The mp7 is better. 2. mp7 damage cutoff range. The mp7 does less dps than the p90, and short range is unaffected by the p90's greater recoil. The p90 is better 3. med range+. Both the mp7 has greater dps and less recoil. It's better. 4. Shooting at a target in cover. The p90's recoil might kick in before enough shots have been fired to kill. The mp7 has almost no recoil, so it's better. 5. Having to take on 3+ enemies in rapid succession. The p90 is better because it has a bigger clip.
So from this, the mp7 emerges as the gun that's simply better. Same with other guns like the acr. If I'm shooting a guy from far away, the recoil is entirely out of my control. The ACR has a greater chance of the first 4 shots landing on target than the AK, CM, or G36, so it's simply better at long range. If you compare guns in the 5 scenarios I mentioned, it's easy to determine which is better.
Thank you for telling me the MP7 is statitstically better. In tiresome detail. I apparently missed that information before, when skimming over the other 3,184 other posts where people explained, ad naseum, about the MP7's stats. As well as the in game stats that told me that too.
Thank you for missing the point I made too. I'll try it again. Again....we all ALREADY know some guns are statistically better. The point is that people who whine incessantly about 'noob' guns are missing the forrest, because of the trees. Player skill, at the end of the day, will have a MUCH much stronger influence on ending outcome than whatever gun type the person uses. A great player might go 35-5 with the MP7, he will probably still go go 34-6 with the P90. We are splitting hairs obsessing over all the you wrote about. The same holds true with bad players. They will still be bad, regardless of what gun they use.
So the point I am making is ....just because a gun is statistically better, does not mean it defaults to being a 'noob gun'
Ofc if we define : noob guns do not exist, then they do not exist. Lack of definition makes this thread pointless.
definitions have been provided...
'Noob Gun'- ( n ) - (New b gun ) - A classification leveled on a FPS gun. The classification/label is generally put onto the gun, in an effort to tell opponents what guns to use, in order to attempt to level the playing feel. See, "Players who suck in FPS", to review those most likely to throw out the "Noob Gun" charge. Also see the subsection "Quick-scopers", for the subset usually most angry about "Noob Guns", their common refrain, ..."He did better than me, but he doesn't use a weapon that requires skill..." ...Most leveled charges of 'Noob Guns' have the indirect affect of further increasing that guns popularity, as other "Players who Suck" (PwS) tend to then flock to those guns.
Unfortunatelly I do not agree with that definition
> Player skill, at the end of the day, will have a MUCH much stronger influence on ending outcome than whatever gun type the person uses.
of course. but you miss the point that we discuss gun types, not skill level we are splitting hairs and doing that we discover that some toys are n00b while others - not...
A great player might go 35-5 with the MP7, he will probably still go go 34-6 with the P90.
Seriously, if you get scores like this, your opponents suck. Of course then it doesn't matter much which gun you use.
But when two players with the same "skill level" play against each other, the one with the MP7 will always win. And even a noob will sometimes kill a good player just because he used the MP7.
Re: MW3 Noob Gun List « Reply #108 on May 9, 2012, 9:38am »
MP7 vs. P90, if the players are equally skilled, can go either way. The statistical advantage of the player with the MP7 will have far less of an effect on the match than the choices, tactics, and strategies of both players.
Most the time a noob kills a good player with an MP7, it almost certainly has far more to do with the engagement circumstance being more favorable to the noob than the MP7 itself. I mean, I get your point... but all the sucky players at the bottom of the player base pyramid make the gun you use matter less.
Coincidentally, if I'm going up against a party or if there is a player or player(s) on the other team that seem good, I'll use something like the T95 RF + Stalker + Focus + BV combo or use mind bullets with a silenced MK14 because they lend themselves better to certain specific strategies than just being good generalist weapons like the MP7.
Actually, I'm not. I probably have around 60,000 kills....and the ACR and MP7 probably have around 5,000 to 6,000 of that total (2,500 each). I leveled up the challenges with them, and then mostly stopped using them.
I'm pretty balanced in terms of most gun use. I probably have around 16 guns with over 1,000 kills. AK47 has the most kills amongst AR's. PP90M1 is the most amongst SMG's...i just like how it looks and feels. Of all kills, LMG's are probably my most used guns. MK, L86, & MG
A great player might go 35-5 with the MP7, he will probably still go go 34-6 with the P90.
Seriously, if you get scores like this, your opponents suck. Of course then it doesn't matter much which gun you use.
But when two players with the same "skill level" play against each other, the one with the MP7 will always win. And even a noob will sometimes kill a good player just because he used the MP7.
That's not true.
And the reason it isn't , is that it is very rare to find conditions where two 'equally skilled' players meet...ALL THINGS EQUAL Just doesn't happen that much. which goes a long way in also showing why the concept of 'noob gun' is a bit ridiculous.
Think about this. Think.
Most battle encounters happen where one player gets a distinct 'jump' on his opponent. Someone sees someone else FIRST. It might be a clear backside shot, or a smaller 1/2 second jump. Either way, when that happens, it doesn't matter what gun you use for the most part. And encounter control, all the various elements that go into dictating who sees who first, ...these factors are always present, and always play the largest role. In fact, I would say the above account for probably 80% of a person's kills/deaths.
Other factors.. Lag. That might account for 2 to 3%. The game type. Your teammates. Cover used. etc....By the time you work your way down the list, gun type really isn't that huge of a deal.
Like I said...the good player using the MP7 who goes 35-7....he will probably still go 34-8, 33-9 using the worst smg. So it is kind of irrelevant to call the guns he is using 'noob guns'....it makes no sense. And the bad player? Same principle. Does it really matter if he uses the gun that might impart fractional stat benefits, so that he goes 10-30, rather than 9-31? Why even go the 'noob gun' route there?
And like I said...worrying about the hypothetical "when two equal players meet"....worrying or even contemplating that type of scenario is a bit absurd, as it might happen once a month when playing. It happens so rarely, it's not even worth discussing.
Re: MW3 Noob Gun List « Reply #111 on May 9, 2012, 3:29pm »
Cool? If they aren't equal, guess what happened to that skill gap? Poor argument. Also lol@your imaginary score differences based off weapon use. Gun choice has effects on results.
Re: MW3 Noob Gun List « Reply #113 on May 10, 2012, 4:57am »
I've been wanting someone to explain this bit for me for a while...
I'm going to list all of the non infection/non ACR weapons that I have a higher K/D with...than the MP7. (as a baseline...before infection came out I had a 3.0 K/D with the FMG according to elite)
AS50 MK14 USAS-12 AA-12 G363 M16A1 AK47 M60 LSW
Mind you...my average K/D has dwindled since BLOPS...but I felt that was the superior game and I felt more at home with that game...but I don't feel like my skill with SMGs has dropped any...and yet I don't do very well with the mp7. It doesn't seem like a "noob gun" to me... I feel like I need skill to have a good game with it. I can't say the same about the USAS or even the AA-12...Those two just come naturally to me.
> Like I said...the good player using the MP7 who goes 35-7....he will probably still go 34-8, 33-9 using the worst smg.
I think you never used the "worst smg".
33/9 = 3.7 kdr... with the worst smg ... the beer in US must be strong
Missing the point ^^^
If a good player goes whatever (make up your own if you don't like mine), using the MP7.....kicks butt against a mediocre lobby...IF you replayed the same scenario, him using the MP5, the good player is still going to do pretty close the same, if not the same.
I stand by that. Most of the above player's encounters will have been won by encounter control, movement, positioning, cover, knifing from behind, etc....it won't matter what gun he was using. He'll still get the kill. The slight differences between the MP5 and MP7 won't account for any groundbreaking score difference.
Note...I've seen the above in person. One can track their KD for example, per each weapon. I've looked at what my KD is for the first couple hundred killls with each smg....the differences are small.
Cool? If they aren't equal, guess what happened to that skill gap? Poor argument. Also lol@your imaginary score differences based off weapon use. Gun choice has effects on results.
And 'LOL" at your believing that using what some call a 'noob' weapon, will suddenly elevate your game and make you are superstar.
The reality is, (as I think you are confused) gun choice has only a very marginal affect on your overall KD (if you are using that as your ultimate measurement, which is another topic in itself). Again...i 'm not saying gun selection (amongst a class) has no effect...I'm saying it's a very small affect, dwarfed by many, many other factors.
I think anyone can see proof of this simply by looking at CoD Elite. Take myself. The M16 is supposed to be 'inferior' to the T95. But when i look at my own stats, i see only a small difference in KD/per gun, 1.61 vs 1.57. When you factor in my use of the M16 didn't have as much attachment use.....the difference is nothing. I can take the above with just about any gun, ...within the same class. My MP7 KD/gunis only like 4.6% higher than the PP90M1. Small difference. Same with LMG's. Snipers. Etc....
Do your own math. One hundred 'encounters', a 1.36 (MP7) vs 1.30 (PP90M) That's 58 kills, 42 deaths for the MP7....versus 56 kills, 44 deaths for the PP90. In a typical game, 20 kills, etc......that's hardly even noticeable. Gun selection, amongst the same class, barely affects anything with what you do.
In fact....a stronger case can be made that the ATTACHMENT use on a particular gun (in it's class) has a much higher factor of influence on the KD/gun. I have tracked this.....KD per prestige, etc...and having your guns fully tricked out, all attachment uses....gives at least a 10 to 15% 'bump' to one's KD, over and above using the stock version. So what's important isn't the type...MP7, MP5k, PP90M, etc...but what attachments and good stuff are used ON the gun.
I've looked at what my KD is for the first couple hundred killls with each smg....the differences are small.
1. because you head-glitch-spawntrap and it is weapon - neutral
2. ydy I was killed 3 times in a row, in a long long range, by MP7+Silencer, in a face to face shootin', he was not tactical loitering, no using mind bullets, I had buffed L86 LSW Grip+Kick and I could not kill him due to idiotic gunkick...
my skills were useless.
that guy would have +3 deaths using MP5, using MP7 +3 kills.
3. yes, you are right, SMGs in CQC might be kdr-wise very similar, skills mater. but MP7 guy gets those ridiculous long range kills not available for other SMGs = his kdr must be higher.
4. let's not forget the facts - MP7+RF on consoles is a different weapon than on PC.
I've looked at what my KD is for the first couple hundred killls with each smg....the differences are small.
1.because you head-glitch-spawntrap and it is weapon - neutral
I don't head-glitch with smg's. I tend to run around, almost nonstop, while hardly ever letting up on the sprint button (I use extreme Cond Pro almost exclusively with them). Please try again on that one.
Quote:
2.ydy I was killed 3 times in a row, in a long long range, by MP7+Silencer, in a face to face shootin', he was not tactical loitering, no using mind bullets, I had buffed L86 LSW Grip+Kick and I could not kill him due to idiotic gunkick...
Well, separate issue, separate matter. The L86, using the iron sights with kick and grip...is a terrible weapon. The only reason to use that combo is because you are trying to level it up, to where it is usable. So you are also comparing guns from difference classes.
Quote:
3.yes, you are right, SMGs in CQC might be kdr-wise very similar, skills mater.but MP7 guy gets those ridiculous long range kills not available for other SMGs = his kdr must be higher.
If the above is true, why aren't my MP7 stats heads and tails above the other smg's? As I showed you before, my pp90 KD isn't that far behind the MP7. It's negligible. And when using both guns, ...things average out. Both guns get the same long distance opportunities for kills.
Quote:
4.let's not forget the facts - MP7+RF on consoles is a different weapon than on PC.
I'm not aware of any facts from the PC. I'm discussing consoles, where I am on the Xbox (as well as most of the player base). On the Xbox, the MP7 has the lowest damage, and lowest range of the smg's....so there's nothing over powered about it there. I'm guessing it's popular because it's like the ACR of smg's.....ease of use. Little to no recoil, high CS, etc..
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