Why no elo system in cod? « Thread Started on May 31, 2012, 11:05pm »
I never understood why they don't have a level system based on player skill rather than playtime. Personally I think it'd solve a lot of problems.
1. Defining skill. In Halo 3, a lvl 50 guy was always really good. In cod there is no way of judging skill. W/L is dependant on retard allies, K/D becomes a choice once you're decent(silenced ACR = high KD, riot shield = low), prestige/lvl is completely useless.
2. Making winning desirable. Currently there is no reason to try to win. Your K/D doesn't increase, you rank doesn't, there's no incentive. In demolition; no one plants, in domination; no one caps, pretty much all objective games are filled with K/D padders or retards. I just played a drop zone game where we won 7500-600. WTF. In demolition, I was the only person in the whole game who planted the bomb. No one even tried defusing it. Objective gamemodes are just useless.
3. Keep better players together. Most good players don't bother playing to win when their entire team doesn't seem to comprehend the win conditions.
4. Encourage communication. In this game no one talks. No one communicates with their team and every lobby is either silence or random noise.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #1 on May 31, 2012, 11:16pm »
There is no way to judge skill accurately simply because of parties. A mediocre guy who only plays in a full party will have a better W/L than a good player who's always with randoms.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #2 on May 31, 2012, 11:24pm »
Its a good idea, but how it works, parties, matchmaking, and connection will be a problem. How will they judge skill is the first thing they have to figure out, then they need to figure out how parties affect the ranks, and finally make sure connection and matchmaking don't take a hit from it as well. Sounds like it would be difficult for them to do well.
Maybe we could work out a formula for them to 'discover'? Do something different maybe?
I never understood why they don't have a level system based on player skill rather than playtime. Personally I think it'd solve a lot of problems.
1. Defining skill. In Halo 3, a lvl 50 guy was always really good. In cod there is no way of judging skill. W/L is dependant on retard allies, K/D becomes a choice once you're decent(silenced ACR = high KD, riot shield = low), prestige/lvl is completely useless.
2. Making winning desirable. Currently there is no reason to try to win. Your K/D doesn't increase, you rank doesn't, there's no incentive. In demolition; no one plants, in domination; no one caps, pretty much all objective games are filled with K/D padders or retards. I just played a drop zone game where we won 7500-600. WTF. In demolition, I was the only person in the whole game who planted the bomb. No one even tried defusing it. Objective gamemodes are just useless.
3. Keep better players together. Most good players don't bother playing to win when their entire team doesn't seem to comprehend the win conditions.
4. Encourage communication. In this game no one talks. No one communicates with their team and every lobby is either silence or random noise.
Anyone know why there's no level system?
Your post gave me the BEST IDEA EVAR [not really]
Your skill level would effect which modes you can play, and only the top 50% of players could play S&D + Demo. YEAHHHHH. More competition and less retarded teammates.
On topic, I would like for something that could better measure skill. It would be possible to improve upon the current system substantially, but would require a lot of work... and use of things outside of K/D, W/L, and SPM [Like your average opponent/teammate K/D, W/L, and SPM, time played in parties vs solo, etc.]
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #4 on Jun 1, 2012, 12:13am »
Firstly, parties aren't all that. Let's say the average skill of the party is lvl 40 (halo system). It finds players so that the average skill of the enemy team is 40 as well. In halo 3, at high lvl games everyone coordinated and talked at a level only 0.001% of CoD lobbies do. People would say stuff like "sniper in building" or "they're pushing down left side".
I guarantee you that if all the randoms i was with were clones of me, my W/L would be much higher. MUCH higher. Again parties are irrelevant. With a skill based rating system a party of good players would face random teams of good players. Skill would be more or less equal, with tactics being the only real difference. And tactics are easy to implement as long as players realize that their headset can be used for something other than trash talking or acting as a microphone so that the whole lobby can hear the song you're listening to.
A formula is really easy, especially considering that anything would be an improvement over what we have now. Do the standard elo system. If you lose the game you lose points, if you win you gain them. To identify "superstars" a formula could be used for individual player gains that considers both the percentage of the teams score and k/d that the player got. In a 6v6, the average player should get 15%-20% of the points for his team with a k/d of 1.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #5 on Jun 1, 2012, 8:46am »
I have played Halo extensively, and I prefer the CoD system. If you want good team mates, bring them with you. If you want tough, high level gameplay... I really don't know - GameBattles?
The Halo system is competitive - ALL the time. Which I'm not looking for during casual play. There's no reward for being an above average player in Halo. And if you take a few months off, you come back stuck with a high skill rating and get smashed by people that are on their game. That's frustrating.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #7 on Jun 1, 2012, 1:30pm »
IMHO that the reason is as simple as "there is no compelling incentive for COD makers to do so".
COD's huge commercial success comes from its appeal to new players. The unlock of various game-play influencing items through XP-based leveling provides one of the most important ingredient of video games - novelty: something new, something better, something different.
A new player (or noob), who does not have any previous experience with the series, can jump in and get satisfaction from this setup. As a result, COD is able to grow its fan base title after title. As it stands today this (i.e. appeal to noobs) is proven to be the best way for a franchise to dominate.
Bungie saw the rise of COD and decided to downplay the "skill" factor in Halo Reach. The attempt did not work as they were not able to attract "noobs" while managed to piss off the die hard fans. Halo 4 is going one step further: it will have a XP-like system that unlocks game-play influencing elements just like COD. They have not mentioned anything about what they want to do with competitive leveling yet.
That said, once a noob played with the game long enough to become an experienced player (keep in mind most of the noobs never reach this stage), he will long for something more: competitive game play, team play, etc. However, by this time the COD makers would want the players to buy the next game instead of sticking with the old one. There is no financial incentive for ActiVision to create a COD game that have playability > 1 year.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #8 on Jun 1, 2012, 1:40pm »
As far as I can see, COD's strategy for appealing to the advanced players come from the following areas:
1) Rely on DLC to provide the novelty; 2) Rely on Clan system to encourage team play; 3) Put focus on "e-sport" aspects of FPS games (as Treyarch claimed they are doing for BO2) so the games become more appealing for a) "professional" players to play it like a sport; b) spectators to watch the professional players play it like a sport; like Star Craft.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #9 on Jun 1, 2012, 2:32pm »
mw2baller
I sent you a clan invite. Worry no more. You'll have 62 like minded, CoD playing guys to hook up with, all of which play to WIN first, mostly play objective games and don't suck on the KD cock.
Firstly, parties aren't all that. Let's say the average skill of the party is lvl 40 (halo system). It finds players so that the average skill of the enemy team is 40 as well. In halo 3, at high lvl games everyone coordinated and talked at a level only 0.001% of CoD lobbies do. People would say stuff like "sniper in building" or "they're pushing down left side".
I guarantee you that if all the randoms i was with were clones of me, my W/L would be much higher. MUCH higher. Again parties are irrelevant. With a skill based rating system a party of good players would face random teams of good players. Skill would be more or less equal, with tactics being the only real difference. And tactics are easy to implement as long as players realize that their headset can be used for something other than trash talking or acting as a microphone so that the whole lobby can hear the song you're listening to.
A formula is really easy, especially considering that anything would be an improvement over what we have now. Do the standard elo system. If you lose the game you lose points, if you win you gain them. To identify "superstars" a formula could be used for individual player gains that considers both the percentage of the teams score and k/d that the player got. In a 6v6, the average player should get 15%-20% of the points for his team with a k/d of 1.
Parties aren't irrelevant. A good 'team' will always beat a random selection of superstars. I see this every single time I play CoD. A team trumps KD superstars 99 out of 100 times. Tactics beats skill. And more so, desire to win.
As far as I can see, COD's strategy for appealing to the advanced players come from the following areas:
1) Rely on DLC to provide the novelty; 2) Rely on Clan system to encourage team play; 3) Put focus on "e-sport" aspects of FPS games (as Treyarch claimed they are doing for BO2) so the games become more appealing for a) "professional" players to play it like a sport; b) spectators to watch the professional players play it like a sport; like Star Craft.
I think you are overthinking it Witty.
I think it comes down to the simple reality that most video game players in the last five years, that has been an evolving to multiplayer/online aspects of gaming. Despite efforts of gaming companies to make solo campaigns interesting....it can never, ever duplicate the feel of a real live human opponent. There is something infinitely more appealing in playing against humans. Probably due to things like hearing an opponent curse when you kill them, emotions, unpredictibility behavior, sh*t tlak, etc....
And when it comes time to playing against humans, CoD is really the only true option for a advanced FPS gamer. There are tons of varying stats to keep an advanced gamer interested, and more importantly, You know that IF you put in the time, you know there is going to be a sequel next year, that will allow you to carry over your skills to it. Take myself. BF looked interesting, Halo was sort of fun....but I really don't want to invest time in trying to learn a new FPS. It took me years to get good...I want to keep and carry those skills over to the next game.
And when you consider the social networking, all the friends are playing it too, ....it truly becomes the only real option.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #12 on Jun 1, 2012, 3:21pm »
The reason a team always wins against KD superstars is because KD superstars are just that.
In halo 3 if you had 4v4 of a party vs randoms (equal skill of course), the randoms could win since they'd always communicate and actually want to win.
Also halo is a very noob attractive game. There are a ton of vehicles, weapons, and etc. And If you're a noob it's even more fun because those things are actually usable. Once you get good your halo inventory shrinks to like 5 weapons.
Also how does a level system hurt noobs? If I jump into halo, I'm a lvl 1 who plays against lvl 1s. I can use vehicles or spraying weapons to compensate for my lack of skill.
The reason a team always wins against KD superstars is because KD superstars are just that.
In halo 3 if you had 4v4 of a party vs randoms (equal skill of course), the randoms could win since they'd always communicate and actually want to win.
Also halo is a very noob attractive game. There are a ton of vehicles, weapons, and etc. And If you're a noob it's even more fun because those things are actually usable. Once you get good your halo inventory shrinks to like 5 weapons.
Also how does a level system hurt noobs? If I jump into halo, I'm a lvl 1 who plays against lvl 1s. I can use vehicles or spraying weapons to compensate for my lack of skill.
In CoD I jumped in and faced pros from day 1.
I don't really think it's an issue.
The reality is, with like 17million people playing on XBox, about 400,000 on a busy night, ....even a rank rookie isn't going to be facing off against 'pros' every game. And with big lobbies like GW, most new people can slide right in on a team of randoms and be able to do ok in a pretty short time. That's the thing...with so many new people, less than a year playing people, even rank rookies can do ok. When they do get in against some pros....it's all a good learning experience. That's how you get better.
I can relate to this. I bought MW1 in Jan of '08, after it had been out three months. It was my first online/human FPS. I got my azz handed to me, badly, for about a month or so. (like 0.58 KD ratio). But I stuck it out, picked up things quickly, as this isn't rocket science, playing this game. Like i said, even the rankest of rookies can be up in running in no time at all....AT LEAST playing to a somewhat decent level.
In math terms....on a scale of 1 to 100 (hypothetical skill)....one can go from 1 to say 70 fairly fast, in a few months. It might take another full year of playing to go from 70 to 80. To get higher? Then you are really fine tuning around the edges.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #14 on Jun 2, 2012, 2:15am »
Oh, is that the ELO system? Apparently I misunderstood -- I thought it was merely the name for the measured player skill. In the case that it matches you against equally skilled players, HELL. NO.
I guess it could be that I love the rage that comes from pubstomping, or simply because I dont play enough to keep my game up... but, no. I just dont want that sort of system.
Joined: Jan 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 907 Location: New Jersey, USA
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #15 on Jun 2, 2012, 2:39am »
It should definitely be like Halo 3. I don't even know why Halo: Reach wen't away from the TrueSkill system. It was amazing. TrueSkill required players to work for their ranks, and wasn't determined by how much game time one has. I can honestly say TrueSkill was the pinnacle of determining a players Skill my a number. I can vouch for this, I'm a 46 in Halo 3.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #16 on Jun 2, 2012, 6:34am »
Judge it on the SPM and have each gametype contribute differtently.
The way to judge good over bad is to have the game running for a month and see what a high score per minute is per gametype and what a low one is.
For instance, a 500 SPM in SnD will be equivelant to a 100 SPM in TDM (not exact results, we'd need the month of playing to find out averages.) or 200 SPM in DOM or DEM?
That would be an average player and he would be a 5/10 and this level would be exterior to the leveling up system, similar to the clan rank on elite that shows on your title.
Call them something fancy, rank 1 = FNG all the way up to rank 10 = Boss and 2-9 something in between.
So, now we have a system to show how good a player is, do we then implement it into every match making for every game mode?
For me no, I enjoy the random roll and it's a game I don't always want to be playing my best to do well, sometimes I just want to relax... It is a game.
A playlist for competition where these ranks come into play might work.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #17 on Jun 2, 2012, 7:31am »
While the above system has good intentions, here is the problem. Whatever system you use, to measure 'skill', it will be one that is essentially replacing "KD ratio" for many of the players in CoD. And if you find some new ratio/number to do the trick, let's a "Skill Ratio", that number would pretty much be gamed, abused, or worked in the same manner the KD is right now.
When I say 'gamed' or 'worked'..i am referring to how many people use objective game whoring, as a means to boost their KD ratio. Not talking about the people who win the games, but those who have no intention of EVER trying to win, and simply whore out kills, using their teammates as meat shields.
While the above system has good intentions, here is the problem. Whatever system you use, to measure 'skill', it will be one that is essentially replacing "KD ratio" for many of the players in CoD. And if you find some new ratio/number to do the trick, let's a "Skill Ratio", that number would pretty much be gamed, abused, or worked in the same manner the KD is right now.
When I say 'gamed' or 'worked'..i am referring to how many people use objective game whoring, as a means to boost their KD ratio. Not talking about the people who win the games, but those who have no intention of EVER trying to win, and simply whore out kills, using their teammates as meat shields.
+1. Cheating is the biggest problem of putting a spotlight on any "skill" indicator. Halo 3's system has resulted a lot of innovative cheating behaviors, and prevalence of cheaters would ruin the game for everybody.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #19 on Jun 2, 2012, 2:22pm »
SPM alone wouldn't be perfect either. In dom if you keep a rolling triple cap going you will get more points from the caps than holding the same two flags the entire game. Demolitions only way to seriously gain points is to kill a lot. There aren't that many points from objective play in demo.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #20 on Jun 2, 2012, 4:28pm »
I see zero problems with adding a "competitive" playlist that uses an invisible ranking system to match players. TrueSkill is Microsoft's formula so the devs wouldn't even have to do much work... and it would be great for those of us who prefer close matches.
Want some casual games? Play social. Want some stiffer competition? Play competitive. Simple. Easy.
While the above system has good intentions, here is the problem. Whatever system you use, to measure 'skill', it will be one that is essentially replacing "KD ratio" for many of the players in CoD. And if you find some new ratio/number to do the trick, let's a "Skill Ratio", that number would pretty much be gamed, abused, or worked in the same manner the KD is right now.
When I say 'gamed' or 'worked'..i am referring to how many people use objective game whoring, as a means to boost their KD ratio. Not talking about the people who win the games, but those who have no intention of EVER trying to win, and simply whore out kills, using their teammates as meat shields.
Then the answer to this is to make your own skill level 100% invisible, you never know it and no one else ever knows it, then when you roll into said competitive arena, the game knows your rank and it matches you to the players of equal skill.
If you can't see it there is no need to boost it.
Boosting would only be an incentive if you want to be that level 10 Boss to show off because boosting to level 10 would have no benefits to go and play the competitive arena.
Problem solved?
I would also be a fan of removing any reference to KD in objective leader boars with focus on plants/caps/defends/defuses/returns and SPM shown too.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #22 on Jun 2, 2012, 10:49pm »
The big problem Halo had was people intentionally deleveling so they could then stomp on players of lower skill. It was routine to see people sitting in a corner killing themselves with grenades and such just so they could derank. It was lame to play against and even lamer to have as a randomly assigned teammate.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #23 on Jun 2, 2012, 11:00pm »
Deleveling would only be a problem for xbox I think. Can pc make more than one account for free? If so ps3 and pc could just make a new account to pub stomp with and when it gets too high scrap it for another. Better than having people deleveling, but still cheating the system in place.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #25 on Jun 3, 2012, 12:42am »
Solves xbox, but ps3 still will have the problem. And its easier to create a new account than it is to actually delevel. That sounds like a few tedious hours of purposely killing yourself for a night or two of pub stomping. New accounts take a few minutes to make.
Re: Why no elo system in cod? « Reply #26 on Jun 3, 2012, 10:38am »
I never once saw someone delevel themselves in halo 3. If I wanted to pubstomp i'd join the social playlists.
Making new accounts could easily be solved by implementing a cod specific account. No matter what gamertag you use, you sign into the same account which is limited to 1 per CD.
Also a system where a win means you gain skillpoints and a loss (or quit) means you lose skill points is foolproof. Sure there might be some people who will deliberately lose, but that's like boosters right now. They represent a small minority.
I really don't see why no skill system is better than a potentially flawed one. Only 1/10 objective games I join have people actually trying to win. People are motivated by rewards. In chess, basketball, or whatever the reward is winning. If you lose at chess you don't make a youtube video of how you captured all 8 of the guys pawns. However in cod everything is centered around kills. The KD is the "best" statistic, killstreaks reward you for kills and in turn boost your KD, calling in those killstreaks unlocks emblems, killing with weapons unlocks weapon emblems, and pretty much everything encourages getting kills. There is no point at all in winning. They could remove the enitre score system for every game mode and replace it with a timer and people would be happy since they'd get more kills. In fact removing a timer would be even better since then you could get unlimited kills.
TLDR a single statistic based on winning would make winning the top priority and make the game a lot more fun. Also this:
I really don't see why no skill system is better than a potentially flawed one. Only 1/10 objective games I join have people actually trying to win. People are motivated by rewards. In chess, basketball, or whatever the reward is winning. If you lose at chess you don't make a youtube video of how you captured all 8 of the guys pawns. However in cod everything is centered around kills. The KD is the "best" statistic, killstreaks reward you for kills and in turn boost your KD, calling in those killstreaks unlocks emblems, killing with weapons unlocks weapon emblems, and pretty much everything encourages getting kills. There is no point at all in winning. They could remove the enitre score system for every game mode and replace it with a timer and people would be happy since they'd get more kills. In fact removing a timer would be even better since then you could get unlimited kills.
All very true....but what you could do, is simply say that IF your team loses an objective game, you dont' credit for any of your kills, killstreaks, emblems or anything else.
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