Vector: Underrated? « Thread Started on Jan 1, 2010, 1:27pm »
The Vector seems to be the best SMG IMO, although probably tied with the UMP. It has the lowest amount of recoil, shoots the fastest, and has a quick reload. At Close Range and even Long Range it cuts down enemies and its high rate of fire means alot of bullets are going to be hitting the enemy when you hipfire. The only problem is that it runs out of ammo fast which means Scavenger is a must.
Without Stopping Power or Silenced, the UMP is better with its 35 damage, but the other SMG's aren't that impressive. The MP5k has ridiculous recoil, outside of close range it is nearly useless and your going to be losing to Assault Rifles every time. I don't think any gun is more uncontrollable. Also considering the maps are mainly mid to long range combat. The P90, all it has going for it is the large magazine and low recoil, but the Vector is more accurate and is faster. The Uzi has too much recoil and shoots slightly quicker than the P90 but seems to have nothing on the Vector.
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #1 on Jan 1, 2010, 1:51pm »
Quote:
The Uzi has too much recoil
Question: Have you ever actually used the mini-uzi before?
All of the SMGs have their places and uses.
The MP5k is the ultimate non-shotgun weapon at close quarters; and like a shotgun it kinda blows at longer ranges. Pretty sure it has the fastest ttk up close of all non-shotgun weapons.
The UMP is the best for a build without stopping power because it will never kill in less than or more than 3 shots at its minimum damage.
The Vector is a solid all-round SMG that guzzles rounds. I think the reason it gets underrated is because it doesn't particularly specialize in anything. Sure, it has the fastest RoF, but RoF and Damage mean nothing alone - TTK is what does.
The P90 has large mags capable of doing things like raping entire teams and killing UAVs. A solid alternative to an Uzi.
The Uzi is very easy to control and has a better ttk than the P90.
"Even at normal Health, there's no other choice than the Vector" Den Kirson
Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,337
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #2 on Jan 1, 2010, 2:00pm »
in core i like the mp5 over the ump. fire rate & easy accuracy. p90 is also funzies. not big on the ump, vector & uzi in core. very useable, but idl the low ROF on the ump in core. when i SMG it's going to me marathon/sohp+lwp+srp and im going to do major league run & gun. mp5 is better at that than the ump.
i wish there was an ak74u in this game <cries>. omg... i would <3 an ak74u with extended mags holy Foxtrot imba lol
Joined: Dec 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 10,398 Location: Rotherham, UK
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #3 on Jan 1, 2010, 2:22pm »
You say that the MP5 isn't great outside of close range, but surely close range is the whole point of using an SMG?
It's actually the UMP that throws the normal rules out of the window due to maintaining high range despite range.
If you factor this out of the equation, then ALL the SMG's struggle somewhat when going into medium & long range (where the AR is king).
Therefore you need to either work to the weapons strengths and accept poor performance with greater range, or change up to an AR.
Given the choice out of the SMG's available I'd go with the following in order of pref:
1) UMP45 2) MP5K 3) Vector 4) P90 5) Mini-Uzi
I don't think there's much between the P90 and Mini-Uzi, and dependant on the circumstances, either can be as effective as the other.
If you can't deal with the MP5's recoil, then the Vector could move up to second, but it is losing out on pure damage/ttk.
The fact is that the UMP is the best of the SMG's by quite a strong margin.
In closing, I don't think that the Vector is underrated as such, simply that there are far better choices available across the classes, which makes it a preference choice as against an efficiency choice.
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #4 on Jan 1, 2010, 3:04pm »
TTK means so little in this game up close. It didn't mean that much in CoD4, then they increased view kick when you get shot in this game and that made it matter even less. It means something, but not a whole lot. It's not going to make much of a difference if a gun kills in .25 seconds or .20 seconds. I would say it means a little more at range though.
You say that the MP5 isn't great outside of close range, but surely close range is the whole point of using an SMG?
It's actually the UMP that throws the normal rules out of the window due to maintaining high range despite range.
If you factor this out of the equation, then ALL the SMG's struggle somewhat when going into medium & long range (where the AR is king).
Therefore you need to either work to the weapons strengths and accept poor performance with greater range, or change up to an AR.
Given the choice out of the SMG's available I'd go with the following in order of pref:
1) UMP45 2) MP5K 3) Vector 4) P90 5) Mini-Uzi
I don't think there's much between the P90 and Mini-Uzi, and dependant on the circumstances, either can be as effective as the other.
If you can't deal with the MP5's recoil, then the Vector could move up to second, but it is losing out on pure damage/ttk.
The fact is that the UMP is the best of the SMG's by quite a strong margin.
In closing, I don't think that the Vector is underrated as such, simply that there are far better choices available across the classes, which makes it a preference choice as against an efficiency choice.
With Shotguns and Machine Pistols as Secondary, an SMG needs to do more than just close range. Akimbo Glocks beat ANY SMG at close range and they don't get hipfire penalty like the other guns, and the MP5's TTK doesn't compare to a shotgun's 0TTK OHK. You can stick on Rapid Fire but that makes recoil unbearable and it sacrifices range, still your going to lose vs shotguns at close range.
i never said any SMG with anything outside of close range. you = mega fail im saying flat out... the UMP in core does not have the fire rate to be a good sub machinegun. at range the fire rate and accuracy is too low.
UMP = flashlight tag mp5, p90 = good core submachineguns
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #7 on Jan 1, 2010, 10:18pm »
Thats why all the top PC teams run mostly UMPs am I right? The P90 is awful, lower ROF than the UZI with the same damage and similar recoil, more recoil than the vector while sharing its 4 shot kill AND having a lower rate of fire.
i never said any SMG with anything outside of close range. you = mega fail im saying flat out... the UMP in core does not have the fire rate to be a good sub machinegun. at range the fire rate and accuracy is too low.
WTF are you on about?
I was replying to the OP who stated Quote:
The MP5K has ridiculous recoil, outside of close range it is nearly useless
The next time you decide to have a pop at someone, get your facts straight.
I will however now respond to your own response and repeat my initial sentence - WTF are you on about?
Unless a player is awful at aiming then it should come down to factors such as TTK, positioning/movement, perk selection, recoil control and reflexes.
Imagine the situation in CQB, Player A is using a P90, Player B is using an UMP45. They both see each other at the same time (taking lag into account), both fire at the same time, are both as accurate and both move accordingly. Despite the P90's far superior fire rate, the UMP has the edge with damage, and has the better TTK. Result = Player A loses...
Now we move onto long range, and we see that the UMP45 does the same or even more damage than most of the AR's, and from a ROF perspective is about the same speed as the Scar, they main difference being higher level of recoil on the UMP. Looking at the TTK for both the Scar and UMP, we see that they are virtually the same when doing their max damage, yet moving into range where the Scar drops more damage, the UMP doesn't and this gives it a better TTK than the Scar. Assuming you burst fire, or know how to control the recoil, it's a pretty close thing.
NONE of the other SMG's can get anywhere near this at range and only the MP5 has the better TTK in CQB, which is why the UMP is more like an AR, than an SMG. And this is also why I totally disagree about it being too slow or inaccurate in either CQB or Range shooting to be effective.
TTK means so little in this game up close. It didn't mean that much in CoD4, then they increased view kick when you get shot in this game and that made it matter even less. It means something, but not a whole lot. It's not going to make much of a difference if a gun kills in .25 seconds or .20 seconds. I would say it means a little more at range though.
Of course TTK matters, because in situations where all else is equal, the player with the better TTK wins.
I agree that it's not the be all/end all of stats, but it IS important.
With Shotguns and Machine Pistols as Secondary, an SMG needs to do more than just close range. Akimbo Glocks beat ANY SMG at close range and they don't get hipfire penalty like the other guns, and the MP5's TTK doesn't compare to a shotgun's 0TTK OHK. You can stick on Rapid Fire but that makes recoil unbearable and it sacrifices range, still your going to lose vs shotguns at close range.
Actually, you can still beat Akimbo glocks with SMG's, if both players are using SP, then you need to be using Akimbo SMG's to win, if the SMG player is using SP and the Glock player isn't, then both the MP5 and UMP can win dependant on range. Not saying you'd want to do this, but it is possible.
With regards to the SMG vs Shotgun part, you're right, in real CQB, the shotgun wins hands down every time, but if you get outside their optimal range, you're in a world of trouble whereas the SMG is still somewhat effective.
Welcome to MW2, where the only really sensible choice is to take an AR with a shotgun (or maybe the M93) as a secondary, as this covers you at both long and short range.
I personally run the FAMAS with Masterkey and have a Stinger as secondary, that way I can perform at virtual sniper range, don't have to worry about hip-firing in real CQB and am able to take out enemy killstreaks also. You just don't get this overall performance and flexibility with an SMG.
Although if you must use one, I still stick by my original list.
TTK means so little in this game up close. It didn't mean that much in CoD4, then they increased view kick when you get shot in this game and that made it matter even less. It means something, but not a whole lot. It's not going to make much of a difference if a gun kills in .25 seconds or .20 seconds. I would say it means a little more at range though.
Of course TTK matters, because in situations where all else is equal, the player with the better TTK wins.
I agree that it's not the be all/end all of stats, but it IS important.
Who ever has the better connection, better aim, or better luck, THEN better TTK wins especially with the view kick they added.
Joined: Dec 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 10,809 Location: Netherlands
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #12 on Jan 2, 2010, 8:05am »
ok, and now the best part: (btw, I play on xbox, so you know, might be different ROF because of cap) i have tested SMG's for 2 prestiges now, and this what I think: the P90 is the best SMG there is, although it might look weaker then the others, just play with them all for an entire prestige and you will find out. the MP5 is nice, verry strong at close range and has decent iron sights. great with SP the UMP has a nice TTK, but the problem is, even at REALLY close ranges, it jumps of the target, you might not see it in the recoil pictures, that is because it jumps back again I guess, but even at close range fire you might just miss your 3th shot due to recoil, wich makes you shoot a 4th (mayb even after a little pauze to recenter) and you have the worst ttk of them all. about the same goes for long range, except that other SMG's suck there even more. the vector is great, I always use it when I dont have the P90 yet, but I miss something with it: a bigger clip. really that is all the difference. The ROF is not that important, and other then that, I;ve seen more then one table of ROF, and I think they are different because of what you face right? well most time it matters I shoot at ppl, and the bullets will land in the ground/wall so I guess the slower table is most true for me... and in that (I saw the other day on this forum, tested on PS3) table I saw that the P90 was effectively faster then the vector, and that is more what I have encountered in all my kills with both weapons... the ROF is really about the same. mini uzi: this is the gun I least used I guess, but it is the same story as the vector, it might be faster then the P90, but it has the same small clip and the recoil is not better.
and all other then that there is one more problem: you cant really fill up these problems with perks, because then you lose the big advantage of having a SMG I think!!! mp5, you cant get SP what this gun screams for, because you want cold blooded or lightweight. (and I really love silend SMG's and that is what this gun is NOT made for...) vector and uzi: you cant take SOH or Scavanger, wich these guns both need actually, because I always use marathon.... so you can kill about 4/5 ppl with the clips you have and then you are screwed. this is the biggest reason I like the P90 for, you have your perks for the things you really want.
Welcome to MW2, where the only really sensible choice is to take an AR with a shotgun (or maybe the M93) as a secondary, as this covers you at both long and short range.
I personally run the FAMAS with Masterkey and have a Stinger as secondary, that way I can perform at virtual sniper range, don't have to worry about hip-firing in real CQB and am able to take out enemy killstreaks also. You just don't get this overall performance and flexibility with an SMG.
You barely need a shotgun. If you use the TAR with holo sight, sleight of hand, steady aim and stopping power it works at any range. The only problem you get is running out of ammo, so you can pack an M93/Glock or pick up another gun.
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #14 on Jan 2, 2010, 11:43am »
The Vector and P90 are much easier to burst fire at long range. While it isn't recommended to use an SMG like an AR, you can take down an unsuspecting opponent much more easily than with the UMP or MP5. The Vector is my personal favorite SMG as I find the UMP to be a little slow.
vector and uzi: you cant take SOH or Scavanger, wich these guns both need actually, because I always use marathon.... so you can kill about 4/5 ppl with the clips you have and then you are screwed.
I find both SOH and Marathon to be largely unneeded. There are very few times where I absolutely need to keep running or reload faster. Usually I have enough time to step back and do a full reload, both of these perks really seem nice but rather unnecessary. Mini-Uzi silenced, scavenger, cold blooded, and ninja is how I got my nuke... the recoil is great on that it's like a lazer that is magnetically attracted to heads javascript:add("%208-)") It goes straight up always and is very manageable. P90 always bounces off target, as does MP5k and UMP. I never used the vector, it's just got real low damage. I'll probably go for it on another prestige.
if you dont use lightweight nor marathon. there is not really a reason to take a SMG at all IMO....
I've got a Scavenger/Cold Blooded P90 class that works marvelously on objective gametypes. Even without Lightweight and Marathon, I still notice the speed difference over ARs.
if you dont use lightweight nor marathon. there is not really a reason to take a SMG at all IMO....
I've got a Scavenger/Cold Blooded P90 class that works marvelously on objective gametypes. Even without Lightweight and Marathon, I still notice the speed difference over ARs.
I almost never sprint unless I have lightweight (or pretty confident there is no enemy at close range) - due to the long extra delay until you are allowed to fire after a sprint.
I still think P90+rapid fire is the best "run n gun" (marathon+lightweight) SMG on Touch Football and MP5k+rapid fire for core.
Lately I have been forcing myself to excel with UMP+Sound Suppressor, Marathon, Lightweight and Ninja. Powerful combination that OHK at any range (Touch Football). It will probably work out pretty well on core as well - but it do have a bit too slow rate of fire (even more so for core where you need 3 hits) and long reload for smaller maps, such as scrapyard. Iron sights are also one of the worst in the game - making it rather pointless to walk while in ADS - which is one of the strong points of using a SMG (and if you miss your initial burst at long range, your target often disappear behind muzzle flash and recoil).
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #20 on Jan 3, 2010, 1:39pm »
Why use a SMG when you can get stabbed by someone with Commando on a small map? It's ridiculous how many times I've actually got killed trying to shoot down someone who teleports to me at SMG range and stabs me before I even get 2 shots off.
I've actually given up on leveling SMGs (aside from the UMP) and focused on leveling secondaries instead because of the lack of SMG accuracy/power, shotguns (1887s aren't fixed btw) and Commando. Forget even trying to silence any other SMG with the exception of the UMP. Its amazing how obsolete SMGs are in MW2 when compared to CoD4 or CoD5.
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #21 on Jan 3, 2010, 3:26pm »
well, for the mobility? although I just realized that sniper rifles could go well with a knife class... since the mobility is 100% for both.
SMGs are always about mobility! that's the major trade off. If you don't care much about mobility and are using a SMG... maybe it's time to convert to LMG - the ammo is plenty and the acc. and power is there. Or try ARs... just know that if you go SMG you go fast or don't go at all... IMO... pretty much true though i think.
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #22 on Jan 3, 2010, 4:30pm »
The Vector, P90 and Uzi are very similar (high ROF, low damage), yet balanced with each other.
The Vector will kick in a random cluster, which I don't like. Yes it fires the fastest, but it can be a bit random, and the 25 damage can hurt when shooting through surfaces or at a painkiller nub.
The Uzi will kick mostly up. Probably the best and most controllable SMG in the class.
The P90 will kick to the upper right. Relatively easy to control, but its not an advantageous kick at all. 50 rounds mags are nice though.
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #23 on Jan 3, 2010, 7:04pm »
Quote:
I find both SOH and Marathon to be largely unneeded. There are very few times where I absolutely need to keep running or reload faster.
No perk is necessary.
Sleight of Hand's primary use is the pro, not the standard. But you shouldn't think of the reload speed in terms of how much you need it. The quicker you reload, you will be killed by someone appearing while reloading.
Marathon is again a pro-oriented perk. The climbing faster allows you to bring your gun up faster and in general get around the very slow and vulnerable action that is climbing. And again the regular is not at all bad - in SnD particularly, it lets you move around the more empty maps a lot quicker, and get to places for an ambush at the start.
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #24 on Jan 3, 2010, 8:32pm »
qupie was saying the Mini Uzi wasn't any good because it needed Scavenger, Sleight of Hand, and Marathon. I was trying to point out that I didn't think two of them were really that helpful, and so I think scavenger is the most beneficial. For SMGs, ADS time is quick enough, coupled with a fairly tight hip fire as to make SoH pro not that helpful. Reloads are fairly long, but like I said, I tend to have enough time to reload. Marathon pro is pretty useful, but I don't think regular Marathon is particularly helpful, and neither is nearly as good as extra ammo and replenishing ammo, especially on a class that tends to be running around enough to pick up the blue bags full of happy. Plus semtex, C4, Claymores, whatever? It seems like no contest, so I was getting that out there.
I find both SOH and Marathon to be largely unneeded. There are very few times where I absolutely need to keep running or reload faster. But I almost always need more ammo. so Scavenger is the most useful.
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #25 on Jan 4, 2010, 3:08pm »
The problem is that Commando (a perk) is superior to all equip-able CQC options, especially with Lightweight equipped. If we played a cage match with PlayerA in a house with any weapon of his choice, and PlayerB outside with Lightweight and Commando, I would put my money on PlayerB winning the majority of games. This is particularly the case in games with less than optimum ping, which Lightweight uses to it's advantage.
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #27 on Jan 4, 2010, 5:08pm »
I don't understand the point of using a Vector, because its benefits and disadvantages don't complement eachother, or cancel eachother.
The Vector's benefits over the other SMGs -High rate of fire -Lowest recoil of any SMG
Its disadvantages: -Low damage (and thus, the lowest TTK of any SMG)
Well, if an SMG is meant to be used close up, at close range the Vector's low recoil and high rate of fire are both irrelevant, since a higher TTK is what matters most. And at long range, it's accurate, but only up to a point, since its high ROF makes its low recoil per bullet irrelevant. And at long range it lacks power, also making its accuracy irrelevant.
I honestly think it's the worst SMG, although I'd have to check its TTK at different ranges. I have a suspicion that there's a certain window at mid-range in which a Vector is optimal over the other SMGs.
Re: Vector: Underrated? « Reply #29 on Jan 4, 2010, 5:13pm »
my problem with the vecktor is that it almost shoots toooo fast. I find myself wasting extra ammo just to make sure my target is down. I also run out of ammo fast with this gun too.. yeah yeah... scavenger... but I like to run it bling with a sliencer and a red dot. I'm going to work with the vecktor pretty heavy on my next prestige after tonight.
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