arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Mar 16, 2011 16:37:25 GMT -5
For some reason, I used to think that the faster the ROF, the more inaccurate it is, but according to the recoil thread, that's not necessarely the case. In terms of leading 2nd, 3rd, etc shots, mac11 and several other smgs are more accurate in terms of recentering to the original idle non-moving position.
And according to that recoil thread, rapid fire practically halves the accuracy.
So I'm guessing there must be some constant formula that applies to all the smgs that use rapid fire. And I want to know that X amount if recoil increase..
Does anyone know, or can find out? 2n
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Den
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Post by Den on Mar 16, 2011 18:10:40 GMT -5
Recoil is not modified. The change simply shortens the time between shots, shortening time for recovery (or even time for the recoil to reach its apex) between shots.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Mar 16, 2011 19:36:09 GMT -5
In MW2 it did modify the recoil itself, though... right?
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Den
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Post by Den on Mar 16, 2011 21:00:07 GMT -5
Maybe. Probably not. We don't know, we don't have the MW2 weapon files.
If Treyarch's copy of some MW2 stuff is any hint, then MW2's SMGs using Rapid Fire didn't have their recoil values changed either.
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Post by psijaka on Mar 17, 2011 4:05:46 GMT -5
Recoil is not modified. The change simply shortens the time between shots, shortening time for recovery (or even time for the recoil to reach its apex) between shots. The "or even time for the recoil to reach its apex" possibility is very significant. Take a look at the plots below, from the How exactly does centerspeed work? thread. "The plots below are for the Galil, with fire time modified to show the effect upon the 2 different methods of calculation. Note that the centre plot is scaled so that the 2 plots overlay exactly, by multiplying the displacement plot by the normal fire time! Also note that the same set of randomly generated viewkick figures are used throughout. 1 square = 5 units (degrees?)." If we look at the green plots, we see that the recoil from the sample 10 round burst is actually reduced if the fire time is reduced to give the Rapid Fire rate of fire (leftmost green plot). This is I suspect because the recoil in the simulation is not reaching it's apex before the next shot is fired. This simulation assumes that when the next shot is fired, any residual kick velocity from the previous round is cancelled and replaced by the new kick velocity. Perhaps the Galil is not the best example to show this; I will repeat the simulation for one of the SMGs (0.064 and 0.048 fire time). Complicated stuff!
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Post by psijaka on Mar 17, 2011 5:53:14 GMT -5
Did a couple of simulations for SMGs with and without RF, using the viewkick=velocity model. With RF is to the left. Ignore the purple plot for now. I have simulated dozens of random 10 round bursts for these guns, and in all cases, the simulation shows that the absolute displacement with RF is similar to the displacement without RF, usually slightly less. However, as shown in both of the cases above, the gun with RF appears to return to the axes less frequently than without. This has major implications for the probablilty that the gun will be completely recentered on both axes by the time the next round is fired. This works out to be the same as for the simulation assuming that viewkick is a displacement, not a velocity. The shape of the RF purple plot is the same as the green; but the displacement is larger. Hope that this makes sense.
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Post by psijaka on Mar 18, 2011 6:55:07 GMT -5
This MW2 recoil thread by das147369 may be relevant. Look at the top right of the first image (testxs.jpg). denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=417EDIT - am having trouble accessing this image from the thread above, so have included a cropped version here.The P90 and Vector with and without RF plots are of interest. Although this is MW2 rather than BO, and the tests only included 2 bursts, it is clear that guns with RF have much more recoil than without (as would be expected). Does anyone have some similar "with and without RF" pics from BO?
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Mar 18, 2011 19:12:40 GMT -5
I think your calculations must be slightly off.
With RF, a weapon like the Kiparis has much more recoil, but a weapon like the MP5 will have about the same.
RF weapons in BO perform very similar to how the Commando/Aug and Galil/Famas* do.
*Extra centerspeed
In MW2, as those pictures showed, they seem to modify the entire system. I remember testing a Vector RF vs regular vector, and found firing both at the same speed yielded much different recoil. In BO, they are the same aside from the random factor.
Wow @ the velocity vs displacement thing.
I would have to imagine its a displacement.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Mar 18, 2011 22:23:39 GMT -5
I personally don't believe that RF even in MW2 alters the whole recoil setup of a gun. I believe it merely alters the timing of the shots and the subsequent change in the recoil patterns is entirely the result of that. The recoil patterns of a weapon are inherently dependent upon the vkick stats, centerspeed, and ROF. Changing any one of those can have some pretty interesting consequences, some of which aren't exactly intuitive.
ROF is probably the most chaotic variable in the mix. It's pretty easy to see that higher vkick means more recoil and higher centerspeed means less. ROF on the other hand has a more complex interaction because every time the weapon kicks it must first kick away from center and then return to it. Let's put it this way. A certain vkick and centerspeed will result in a kick that starts at the center, hits an apex, and returns to center within a given period of time.
The timing of the ROF vs the timing of the kicks is what is a key factor in this. If the timing is such that subsequent shots are fired near the apex of the kick then the ROF will be contributing heavily to the weapon's recoil. However if the ROF is either slower OR faster then the shots will fall closer to center. That's not to say that the characteristics of a weapon firing before apex kick will be the same as one firing after the apex.
A weapon that fires at a rate slow enough to allow the view to hit the apex and be returning back to center will have a large amount of visual recoil, but less recoil with respect to where the bullets land. This weapon is also compensating for most of the vkick during firing, and should return to center quickly after firing a burst.
A weapon that fires at a rate fast enough that shots are firing before each kick hits apex are similarly firing those shots closer to the point where they kicked from, but not necessarily center. If the weapon fires quickly enough, however, it could get several shots off before vkick has thrown the aim off by much, making bursts very accurate. More of the viewkick is left to be recentered after firing so the weapon would recover from a burst more slowly. If the weapon's vkick isn't particularly directionally biased then I believe it could actually stay pretty close to center even while firing at full auto due to subsequent kicks effectively cancelling each other out, but keep in mind that would be entirely luck based and even without a directional bias it's possible to get kicked in the same direction 10 times in a row. With a directional bias the weapon would actually favor that bias more strongly than the weapon described above because shots are landing closer to where they kicked from, but not necessarily closer to center. While for the above weapon shots are landing inherently closer to center. On the other hand this weapon would actually have less visual recoil. In fact the visual recoil should match the actual recoil until the weapon stops firing and allows the last kick to reach apex and return to center.
The point of all this is that I don't think there's a blanket rule for exactly how RF affects the recoil of a weapon. You can basically put recoil behavior into three categories with respect to ROF timing.
1. Weapon firing after the apex of its kick. 2. Weapon firing close to the apex of its kick 3. Weapon firing before the apex of its kick
Of course, complicating this even more is the fact that not all vkicks are the same. They fall within a range, which means that a weapon could potentially exhibit all three behaviors. Most weapons will at least exhibit #1 due to small kicks that don't go far from center. From there weapons with larger kicks and/or faster ROF will tend to exhibit #2, and yet larger kicks or faster ROF will exhibit #3. How much of each behavior any given weapon exhibits could be statistically derived with an accurate recoil model.
Simply changing the ROF timing could be beneficial for a weapon if it reduces the #2 behavior and increases #3. But it could also be detrimental if it reduces #1 behavior in favor of #2.
On top of that RF could increase #3 behavior which could result in a weapon going much further off center during the course of a 10 or 20 round burst such as in the Vector images above, and yet the first 5 shots could actually be in a tighter grouping than without RF.
tl;dr RF's effect on recoil is potentially a lot more complex than it seems on the surface and can potentially cause seemingly contradictory results.
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Post by psijaka on Mar 19, 2011 3:50:54 GMT -5
I think your calculations must be slightly off. With RF, a weapon like the Kiparis has much more recoil, but a weapon like the MP5 will have about the same. RF weapons in BO perform very similar to how the Commando/Aug and Galil/Famas* do. *Extra centerspeed In MW2, as those pictures showed, they seem to modify the entire system. I remember testing a Vector RF vs regular vector, and found firing both at the same speed yielded much different recoil. In BO, they are the same aside from the random factor. Wow @ the velocity vs displacement thing. I would have to imagine its a displacement. Headache isn't it! I'm really not sure what to think. Tested MP5 with and without RF yesterday, but pretty inconclusive. Perhaps slightly more recoil with RF, but I can't be certain as the recoil is sooooo random.
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Post by psijaka on Mar 19, 2011 3:55:00 GMT -5
tl;dr RF's effect on recoil is potentially a lot more complex than it seems on the surface and can potentially cause seemingly contradictory results. Good post mannon. I certainly agree with the contradictory bit! I have a feeling that there is still a lot that we cannot be ceretain about.......
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Mar 19, 2011 10:56:18 GMT -5
Small little thing I noticed yesterday - P90 Dual Wield has nearly no recoil.
I have a feeling MW2 attachments change a lot more than we know. If only we could see for sure..
----
I was shooting some weapons and it does seem to be a velocity... but I have a really hard time believing that it is still. Can you show RF displacement vs standard displacement?
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Mar 19, 2011 11:03:56 GMT -5
There are a lot of random attachment quirks in MW2...
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Post by psijaka on Mar 20, 2011 9:57:31 GMT -5
Small little thing I noticed yesterday - P90 Dual Wield has nearly no recoil. I have a feeling MW2 attachments change a lot more than we know. If only we could see for sure.. ---- I was shooting some weapons and it does seem to be a velocity... but I have a really hard time believing that it is still. Can you show RF displacement vs standard displacement? Here it is, asasa. These are using Kick=displacement, centerspeed=velocity. The effect of attachments on recoil - AK74
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Mar 20, 2011 19:10:25 GMT -5
Small little thing I noticed yesterday - P90 Dual Wield has nearly no recoil. I have a feeling MW2 attachments change a lot more than we know. If only we could see for sure.. ---- I was shooting some weapons and it does seem to be a velocity... but I have a really hard time believing that it is still. Can you show RF displacement vs standard displacement? Here it is, asasa. These are using Kick=displacement, centerspeed=velocity. The effect of attachments on recoil - AK74Thanks. Those seem more reasonable than the acceleration/displacement model IMO.
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Post by psijaka on Mar 21, 2011 3:23:54 GMT -5
That's what I thought, and the results look very convincing. But recent posts on your centerspeed thread are begining to convince me thet the Viewkick=velocity; Centerspeed=acceleration model may be correct.
We'll ge tthere in the end, I'm sure. And when we do, I will simulate it!
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