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Post by dcbrady12 on Nov 9, 2011 19:39:04 GMT -5
Let me know if you have any comments or questions. I got the data from the strategy guide.
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Post by josefrees on Nov 9, 2011 19:54:37 GMT -5
Tsk tsk looks like someone didn't read the rules...You are my bro, bro.
Good looking though. Any clue what long range for any of the weapons are?
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kilo
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Post by kilo on Nov 9, 2011 19:59:50 GMT -5
I really don't trust this even if it came from a guide. the speed for snipers are not all the same for instance.
edit: and the msr is bolt action
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Post by onslaught147 on Nov 9, 2011 20:28:10 GMT -5
I don't trust it either Kilo. For example, look at the M4A1 and the Scar. The Scar should be more powerful, and was more powerful in previous CoD games. Yet in this, the M4 is more powerful, and has less recoil. That is not only counter intuitive, it also means the Scar is basically useless since it has a obvious superior.
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Post by crocs on Nov 9, 2011 20:43:56 GMT -5
Assuming you actually have the guide and didn't just copy/paste this from the other thread (I'm guessing the "strategy guide" people keep referring to is the BradyGames Signature Series Guide?), does it provide information on the available titles and emblems and how to acquire them? I've been googling all over and have yet to find any good information on this aspect of the game.
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kilo
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Post by kilo on Nov 9, 2011 23:51:35 GMT -5
I don't trust it either Kilo. For example, look at the M4A1 and the Scar. The Scar should be more powerful, and was more powerful in previous CoD games. Yet in this, the M4 is more powerful, and has less recoil. That is not only counter intuitive, it also means the Scar is basically useless since it has a obvious superior. the Scar-L and Scar-H aren't the same gun though. Scar-L has the same 5.56 as the M4 while the Scar-H has a 7.62 so the Scar being weaker is possible
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 9, 2011 23:53:22 GMT -5
Two things I am confident--aren't right.
1. Gathering info from gamefaqs and this board, not all the sniper rifles have the same movement speeds. 2. MSR is a bolt action, not semi auto.
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Post by verccety on Nov 10, 2011 1:08:16 GMT -5
Hmm, I've tried to hit 2 times with mp412 in stomach and it killed enemy. But in leg mp412 kills in 3 bullets
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Post by holdbrillan on Nov 10, 2011 2:09:53 GMT -5
Faulty info and spelling mistakes are two different thinks. If someone were to make a "fake" guide they would not do such a trivial mistake.
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 10, 2011 2:19:34 GMT -5
It's nice to hear that the PM9 has the fastest kill time out of the smgs.. But I wonder how much higher in rank it would been if it had its 2.4 second reload time as the Uzis from COD4, MW2, and BO had..
Makes me also wonder if rapid fire or kick would be better.
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Lexapro
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Post by Lexapro on Nov 10, 2011 11:27:17 GMT -5
I don't trust it either Kilo. For example, look at the M4A1 and the Scar. The Scar should be more powerful, and was more powerful in previous CoD games. Yet in this, the M4 is more powerful, and has less recoil. That is not only counter intuitive, it also means the Scar is basically useless since it has a obvious superior. As someone already mentioned the Scar-L uses the same 5.56 round that the M4 uses. While the Scar has slightly slower ROF and slightly more recoil, it's 3HK range is 50% longer than the M4, meaning it is a going to be a lot more effective between 800-1200 distances (whatever that means). The M4 does have the advantage of being a 2HK with a headshot in close range though (assuming the headshot multiplier is stil 1.4x). I'm not saying the guide is 100% accurate, but I'm looking at it and it's clear someone went through serious effort in making the guns relatively balanced and unique. Just a quick breakdown of the ARs compared to the M4A1 as a baseline: M16A4: better long range power, lacks full auto Scar-L: gets 3HK out to longer range, a bit more recoil and slower ROF and a bit slower reload CM901: better power overall, a lot more recoil but partially balanced by a much slower ROF, slower reload, prototypical heavy hitter gun Type 95: very powerful within 2000 (units), less recoil than M16, fires faster, but has worse long range damage, also very slow switching and reloading G36c: similar ROF, slightly more range and performs better at long range too, but quite a bit more recoil, very fast weapon switching but slower reload ACR 6.8: slower ROF, slightly faster reload, slightly better damage and range than G36c, lowest recoil of all ARs Mk14: Semi-auto, slow switch to and reload, but powerful with great range. Recoil probably negligible at most ROFs AK-47: Like a CM901, but fires faster, has better range, and less recoil. Slow switching and longer reloads, but seems to outclass the former: FAD: weakest AR but has the fastest ROF, slowest reload and weapon switching with similar recoil to M4, laser gun pew pew Seems pretty balanced to me.
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Post by onslaught147 on Nov 10, 2011 11:31:34 GMT -5
I was only speaking of M4 in comparison to the Scar, but I also wasn't aware that it was a different variant. Someone already answered my concern, so your whole guide there, while appreciated, wasn't really necessary.
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Lexapro
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Post by Lexapro on Nov 10, 2011 11:38:00 GMT -5
I was addressing your point that the Scar seemed outclassed by the M4, which I disagreed with. The rest of the post wasn't meant specifically for you, simply to spark discussion.
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 10, 2011 11:39:34 GMT -5
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Post by crocs on Nov 10, 2011 12:44:34 GMT -5
Having found lexapro's discussion somewhat illuminating, I thought I'd offer a similar analysis of the SMGs (being an SMG man, myself).
Beginning with the MP5 as a baseline, which I think is a fair starting point as most of its stats are relatively average for the class:
UMP: Takes an additional bullet to kill at range, which is particularly significant considering the early range dropoff of SMGs, and in return receives no significant benefits. Unexpectedly the worst in the class. PP90M1: Also takes an extra bullet at range and has a slower reload and raise time, but compensates with a high rate of fire, making it the best CQC SMG early on. See note on PM9 below. P90: Much bigger clip and somewhat faster ROF, for only a marginal sacrifice in handling characteristics. Completely replaces the MP5 once unlocked. PM9: This one (1) sacrifices the 2-shot-kill capacity when one is a headshot, (2) has a notably slower raise time and reload time, (3) is the least accurate of SMGs, and (4) has the worst range dropoff in the class, but gains incredible ROF, making it perhaps the best CQC SMG. It is important to note that the PM9 and PP90M1's extremely slow raise times probably affect the viability of knifing with these SMGs, as IIRC raise time comes into play after a knife attack. This seems at odds with their obvious affinity for CQC play, and makes these two more suitable to players who dropshot rather than knife (tactical button layout) MP7: Also sacrifices 2HK potential and has a slow reload, but has a bigger clip, higher ROF and significantly reduced recoil. Competes with P90 for best overall SMG.
The SMGs are certainly more balanced than their BO counterparts (what was with all the 20 mags?), but I think they could have done a better job still. The UMP is essentially worthless, while the MP5 is undeniably outclassed by the later P90 and MP7.
All this is not to mention the balance BETWEEN classes of weapons. Considering the availability of Stalker to give any AR the best handling characterstic SMGs have to offer (ADS walk), it seems strange that the ARs as a general rule have better raise, drop and reload times. Shouldn't the SMGs have better handling characterstics on the whole to encourage fast-paced, close quarters playstyles?
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Post by dcbrady12 on Nov 10, 2011 13:40:17 GMT -5
To some of the posts... This was never meant to replace Den in any way as i myself are eagerly anticipating his weapon info. I got all of my info (minus the bolt action MSR ) from the strategy guide. So if the guide is correct (which i would assume would have more correct info than incorrect) then the numbers should be good.
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 10, 2011 13:46:54 GMT -5
Just what exactly can the PM9 to do, to be on "par" wii the top 3 smgs? It has the 2nd to lowest clip size as well.
I'm guessing..
PM9 w/ extended mags + Kick proficiency Slight of Hand Overkill 2nd perk??? Steady Aim
Sleight of Hand and Steady aim perk + kick prof to compensate for what its slow reload times and high recoil/lower accuracy
I don't think PM9 needs quick draw perk or range proficiency as I'm guessing it has pretty good ADs time already, and should be more taken advantage of in cqc, due to high recoil and low range anyway. Rapid fire attachment IMO isn't needed since it has the fastest auto kill time anyway, and its recoil is bad enough (though in cqc, it shouldn't be too bad).
2nd perk slot is pretty open ended IMO..
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Post by novanleon on Nov 10, 2011 14:41:42 GMT -5
All this is not to mention the balance BETWEEN classes of weapons. Considering the availability of Stalker to give any AR the best handling characterstic SMGs have to offer (ADS walk), it seems strange that the ARs as a general rule have better raise, drop and reload times. Shouldn't the SMGs have better handling characterstics on the whole to encourage fast-paced, close quarters playstyles? Don't the SMG's have a much tighter hipfire spread than in previous games? I believe this may be the deciding factor, giving the SMGs the edge in close range confrontations.
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Post by countcracula on Nov 10, 2011 15:11:41 GMT -5
Handgun math: why does it say the desert eagles min dmg is 25, but it takes 6 shots to kill? The Five-Seven also says 8 to kill but has a min damage of 17. Typo or true?
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Post by volgon on Nov 10, 2011 15:23:52 GMT -5
The damage on the pistols is definitely wrong unless they have limb modifiers. I've run both akimbo MP412s and magnums and they both kill in 2 hits.
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Post by crocs on Nov 10, 2011 15:27:33 GMT -5
Don't the SMG's have a much tighter hipfire spread than in previous games? I believe this may be the deciding factor, giving the SMGs the edge in close range confrontations. They do, but this doesn't always cut in favor of SMGs. When you're really close, the slightly larger hipfire spread of ARs is preferable because it leaves more room for error. Then there's a small window where SMG hipfire is superior, followed by the range at which ADSing an AR (assuming good accuracy) will generally grant a faster kill than hipfiring an SMG. The latter range is made more problematic by Stalker, which effectively enlarges the range ARs are viable (in the direction of more close quarters viability) by granting the ability to adjust aim via strafing for minor corrections.
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Post by swoopwithnon4m3 on Nov 10, 2011 16:54:52 GMT -5
Don't the SMG's have a much tighter hipfire spread than in previous games? I believe this may be the deciding factor, giving the SMGs the edge in close range confrontations. They do, but this doesn't always cut in favor of SMGs. When you're really close, the slightly larger hipfire spread of ARs is preferable because it leaves more room for error. Then there's a small window where SMG hipfire is superior, followed by the range at which ADSing an AR (assuming good accuracy) will generally grant a faster kill than hipfiring an SMG. The latter range is made more problematic by Stalker, which effectively enlarges the range ARs are viable (in the direction of more close quarters viability) by granting the ability to adjust aim via strafing for minor corrections. You mean a gun + a perk beat a base gun alone in a straight comparison? Say it ain't so!
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Post by kirbyderby on Nov 10, 2011 17:34:11 GMT -5
They do, but this doesn't always cut in favor of SMGs. When you're really close, the slightly larger hipfire spread of ARs is preferable because it leaves more room for error. Then there's a small window where SMG hipfire is superior, followed by the range at which ADSing an AR (assuming good accuracy) will generally grant a faster kill than hipfiring an SMG. The latter range is made more problematic by Stalker, which effectively enlarges the range ARs are viable (in the direction of more close quarters viability) by granting the ability to adjust aim via strafing for minor corrections. You mean a gun + a perk beat a base gun alone in a straight comparison? Say it ain't so! To clarify for frogs (this doesn't necessarily reflect my own viewpoint) In this situation, the base gun (AR) already beats the other base gun (SMG)... however, the addition of a perk that gives the AR one of the SMG's key advantages in CQB, while not affecting the SMG with the same perk, tips the balance even further in the AR's direction. In the future, please read the post you're replying to more thoroughly before making fallacious arguments.
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Post by josefrees on Nov 10, 2011 19:29:56 GMT -5
Is it confirmed stalker has no effect on SMGs?
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Post by swoopwithnon4m3 on Nov 10, 2011 20:37:34 GMT -5
You mean a gun + a perk beat a base gun alone in a straight comparison? Say it ain't so! To clarify for frogs (this doesn't necessarily reflect my own viewpoint) In this situation, the base gun (AR) already beats the other base gun (SMG)... however, the addition of a perk that gives the AR one of the SMG's key advantages in CQB, while not affecting the SMG with the same perk, tips the balance even further in the AR's direction. In the future, please read the post you're replying to more thoroughly before making fallacious arguments. Except it doesn't give the AR the advantage, it gives the class running the perk the advantage. For that to be a valid applicable argument for the blanket AR > SMG, then you'd have to pigeon-hole AR's into making use of that perk while conveniently ignoring that SMGs are not chained with said perk. Also, a larger hipfire reticle is never better. Unless you have issues with the "point" step of "point and shoot." The ONLY SMG that gets beat by an auto AR in TTK at close range is the UMP, SMGs also have tighter hipfire, greater movement and faster ADS, and greater or equal mag sizes to most ARs. Thanks for playing.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 10, 2011 20:41:48 GMT -5
Shut the fuck up and listen to yourself Swoop.
If you cant figure out how stalker is broken, then you're an imbecile. Period.
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Post by swoopwithnon4m3 on Nov 10, 2011 20:54:51 GMT -5
Shut the Foxtrot up and listen to yourself Swoop. If you cant figure out how stalker is broken, then you're an imbecile. Period. There's nothing to "figure out" Brotato Chip, just the usual AR v SMG argument completely ignores the strengths of SMG's while stacking everything in favor of AR's, with an SMG, I can use Dead Silence, Steady Aim or Sitrep and maintain the same combat mobility, which is why combining Stalker and an AR is a dumb argument for why they're better than SMGs.
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Post by shatt3r on Nov 10, 2011 21:32:56 GMT -5
why do the smgs seem to have generally slower raise times than the ARs? anyone have the ADS times for the weapons?
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Lexapro
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Post by Lexapro on Nov 10, 2011 21:44:19 GMT -5
I'm with swoop on this one. While an AR with Stalker gives it that SMG-like ADS mobility, the SMG still has it's faster TTK at close range and inherent movement benefits while keeping that third perk slot open for something else.
Calling people names never got anyone anywhere, and it makes you look bad especially when your argument is the weaker one.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 10, 2011 22:16:34 GMT -5
Shut the Foxtrot up and listen to yourself Swoop. If you cant figure out how stalker is broken, then you're an imbecile. Period. There's nothing to "figure out" Brotato Chip, just the usual AR v SMG argument completely ignores the strengths of SMG's while stacking everything in favor of AR's, with an SMG, I can use Dead Silence, Steady Aim or Sitrep and maintain the same combat mobility, which is why combining Stalker and an AR is a dumb argument for why they're better than SMGs. Yeah, just like OMA tubing required OMA. But I cud uze teh marathonz! Stalker should increase the mobility while ADSed, not make it full/95%.
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