wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jan 26, 2012 14:45:05 GMT -5
1. Recoil plots resulting from emptying the whole mag on the wall give you some info about how the gun works, but in the battle you will not use it that way. 2. Bullet damage counts – if the gun killls with the first 3 bullets it is irrelevant if 4th and 5th or 25th is on target. ACR: Below ACR, burst firing with and without Kick, RDS(Omega) only. I fired 0.17sec 3-round bursts (1 burst enough to enough to kill), then delay and again 3-round burst. Tested delays 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 sec. marked on the screenshot, full mag fired that way. The last "column" - full auto for comparison. Horizontal black line shows the RDS starting center position. Range: Map Hardhat, firing location of the last mag.: Zoom from below (it was not place I fired from) SUMMARY: Kick is a must for ACR. That makes ACR less versatile weapon than many think. Both SCAR-L and G36C can work fine without Kick = more attachments available. Any interest for more pix? you are my bro, bro ...
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Post by stashmusial on Jan 26, 2012 14:52:27 GMT -5
the first 3 plots on the top are what? burst fires with .1 sec delays minus kick? That doesnt look right. But i dont use the ACR much.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jan 26, 2012 14:53:02 GMT -5
Great test, shows the power of Kick for burst firing.
One thing to note though: in game the player will be adjusting aim based on visual feedback. If he is doing burst firing, he will most certainly have enough time to adjust to the recoil between bursts. Even with full auto the adjustment can be very important.
If you have time, maybe you can pick a target and intentionally aim at it and see what the result is like. I did that once and I can see quite significant difference.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jan 26, 2012 14:55:53 GMT -5
the first 3 plots on the top are what? burst fires with .1 sec delays minus kick? That doesnt look right. But i dont use the ACR much. fire button 0.17 sec, delay 0.1 sec, fire button 0.17 sec, delay 0.1 sec, ... until mag empty. (showed delays for 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3sec)) first row: no proficiency, just RDS. 2nd row: Kick+RDS.
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Post by turboRush on Jan 26, 2012 15:02:05 GMT -5
Why use the ACR as a burst fire test? Use the G36C in comparison.
The ACR has a slightly annoying left and right kick.
EDIT:
I also noticed you're on a angled area aiming at the wall. Go to an area where you can stand straight in front of the wall and do this test.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jan 26, 2012 15:13:36 GMT -5
SCAR-L (I assume Kick unnecessary for that gun, just have a look) I fired 0.16sec. 3-round bursts with different delays, same as with ACR above. Tested delays: 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3sec. 1st row: no proficiency, just RDS. 2nd row: Kick+RDS. Horizontal black line shows the RDS starting center position. firing location of the last mag: zoom from below: SUMMARY: delay 0.2-0.3 sec between bursts of 3 bullest makes KICK unnecessary. You have very similar recoil pattern with and without KICK.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jan 26, 2012 15:33:55 GMT -5
G36C (I assume Kick unnecessary for that gun, just have a look) I fired 0.157sec. 3-round bursts with different delays, same as with ACR above. Tested delays: 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3sec. 1st row: no proficiency, just RDS. 2nd row: Kick+RDS. Horizontal black line shows the RDS starting center position. firing location of the last mag zoom from below: SUMMARY: delay 0.2-0.3 sec between bursts of 3 bullest makes KICK unnecessary. You have the same recoil pattern with and without KICK.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jan 26, 2012 16:09:56 GMT -5
I could not make MK46 fire at 859rpm
3 bullets fired arround 775rpm = 0.155sec but sometimes only two, so ROF is a bit below 775. Tested 750rpm (0.16sec burst) and no problems with 3 bullets, so ROF is somewhere between 750 and 775.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 26, 2012 16:33:24 GMT -5
I think it was confirmed that the L86, MG36, and MK46 fired at the same rate
CORRECTION: Not PKP; MG36
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Post by turboRush on Jan 26, 2012 16:52:16 GMT -5
G36C (I assume Kick unnecessary for that gun, just have a look) fire button 0.157 sec, delay 0.1 sec, fire button 0.157 sec, delay 0.1 sec, ... until mag empty. (showed delays for 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3sec) first row: no proficiency, just RDS. 2nd row: Kick+RDS. Horizontal black line shows the RDS starting center position. imageshack.us/f/851/g36c2.jpg/firing location: imageshack.us/f/21/g36c1u.jpg/And that is why it's the best gun fired in bursts. Also kick is extremely necessary for the G36C to perform it's best when fired in bursts.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jan 27, 2012 4:22:22 GMT -5
> Also kick is extremely necessary for the G36C to perform it's best when fired in bursts.
My pictures shows quite the opposite ... Kick does not influence G36C burst firing. The best config is RDS+Silencer.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 27, 2012 10:26:57 GMT -5
Going off of Psijaka's data, it is quite useful.
I think the recoil values/centerspeed or something else are way off on the G36C's stats, though.. as, @ 600RPM it has no recoil, without kick. That does not make sense.
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Evan950
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Post by Evan950 on Jan 27, 2012 11:22:09 GMT -5
the g36c is all about flipping coins. shoot a bullet, 50% chance the 2nd one will hit the same place, then flip another coin for 3rd and 4th shots
the acr, on the other hand, none of the bullets will hit the same place the first did, so it does seem more consistant. but i like the acr better becuase it had horizontal spray, which is good for strafing
other than that, the g36 is the best burst fire
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Post by turboRush on Jan 27, 2012 12:48:32 GMT -5
Going off of Psijaka's data, it is quite useful. I think the recoil values/centerspeed or something else are way off on the G36C's stats, though.. as, @ 600RPM it has no recoil, without kick. That does not make sense. It has a RPM of 733.33 and it does have recoil like every other gun but because of the fast centerspeed the guns recoil manages very well.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 27, 2012 12:56:22 GMT -5
If the data we have on the gun is correct, it should not have ~99% recenter rate @ 600RPM w/out kick.
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Post by turboRush on Jan 27, 2012 13:03:23 GMT -5
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 27, 2012 13:15:23 GMT -5
Now compare that to the recoil plots and recenter rate of the weapon. They do not match.
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Post by cashmoves on Jan 27, 2012 13:59:34 GMT -5
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Post by turboRush on Jan 27, 2012 14:12:08 GMT -5
Now compare that to the recoil plots and recenter rate of the weapon. They do not match. It has a 1600 centerspeed what more proof do you want?
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 27, 2012 14:26:39 GMT -5
...do you even understand how recoil works?
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Post by psijaka on Feb 1, 2012 16:51:51 GMT -5
I'm interested in your work here, wwa; varying the delay between bursts is not something that I have simulated in MW3. Are you planning to post any more screenshots?
Results seem to indicate that a delay of 200ms or more is needed to maintain decent accuracy, dependent upon the gun of course.
Anyway, this thread deserves a bit more attention; I will add a link in my MW3 Recoil Plots thread.
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Post by josefrees on Feb 2, 2012 1:31:43 GMT -5
Yeah it is important to note the delay. While the simulated plots are great they measure specific recoil, 10 consistent burst. This on the other hand is showing the effect of time between bursts.
Very interesting--it's obvious which guns do and dont need kick.
Can you do the FAD?
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Feb 2, 2012 3:55:04 GMT -5
Sure, whatever gun, delay or ROF you need.
FAD? OK. In 10hrs form now. With FAD one burst should be 4 bullets I suppose to have 1 burst kill (synthetic Type95), delay 0.2 sec gives some comparison to Type95, but I 'll produce 0.1 sec and 0.3 sec delays as well, More than 0.3 sec seems slow = you 'd lose to Type95 a lot.
Well, I could reduce FAD ROF as well and fire full auto at G36C or ACR rpm, to have more info about that gun as well. That would be interesting...
If more screenshots I'll edit the 1st post and put all links for all weapons there.
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Post by josefrees on Feb 2, 2012 11:46:43 GMT -5
I was also wondering.... Are you shooting on level ground? Angle would skew the data. Also could you possibly change the font color or something. Hard to read the labels Could you embed the photos into your posts?
And editing the OP and putting all your plots there would make sense.
As for what burst and timing to use, idk. You could do a whole series on what is the best burst rate and delay for each weapon.
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Post by turboRush on Feb 2, 2012 11:51:39 GMT -5
Sure, whatever gun, delay or ROF you need. FAD? OK. In 10hrs form now. With FAD one burst should be 4 bullets I suppose to have 1 burst kill (synthetic Type95), delay 0.2 sec gives some comparison to Type95, but I 'll produce 0.1 sec and 0.3 sec delays as well, More than 0.3 sec seems slow = you 'd lose to Type95 a lot. Well, I could reduce FAD ROF as well and fire full auto at G36C or ACR rpm, to have more info about that gun as well. That would be interesting... If more screenshots I'll edit the 1st post and put all links for all weapons there. Yes please, Anything you can do to help with the G36C go for it.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Feb 2, 2012 14:43:09 GMT -5
> Could you embed the photos into your posts? tried but failed ... > Are you shooting on level ground? Angle would skew the data. It is really hard to find a plain wall in mid range, but I found a better location on Interchange without any angles .. Case study: FAD * I tested 0.1, 0.2, 0.25, 0.3, 0.4, 0.5, 0.6, 0.75, 0.8, 1 sec delays between bursts of 4 bullets = kill (0.24sec burst = 1000rpm), with and without Kick. No significant changes spotted between delays, some random behaviour persits. FAD has a very unpleasant interference of high recoil and low centerspeed, and we have sway .... * At the moment I think Kick is more important for FAD than any kind of burst firing if you need more accuracy .. Just press the fire button and follow your target ... Delays of 0.5-1.0 sec are not acceptable, you are already dead. Delays 0.1-0.3 sec won't improve your accuracy, forget them. Examples FAD+KICK vs Type 95+KICK, 6 magz fired in different modes: From left to right: 1) full auto FAD+KICK, then 4-round bursts: 2) delay 0.25, 3) delay 0.5, 4) delay 0.75, 5) delay 1.0 sec, then 6) Type 95+KICK firing location (Overkill+Scavenger used) zoom, the same firing results but from a different perspective: I tested FAD for almost 1,5 hours. Screenshots above does not tell the truth as many randomness spotted: sometimes full auto was more accurate than any burst firing .. Sometimes 0.5 sec delay was the most inaccurate ... I could not believe it .. Shorter delays improve nothing ... Very very unpredictable AR, especially if without Kick.... 2) FAD without KICK From left to right, magz fired: 1) full auto FAD, then 4-round bursts: 2) delay 0.25, 3) delay 0.5, 4) delay 0.75, 5) delay 1.0 sec, zoom: 3) Reducing FAD's ROF is not effective IMO, but have a look .... I fired FAD full auto (no bursts) at (From left to right): 600, 705, 800, 925 and 1000 rpm ... results below: zoom, from a different perspective: -- If you know a nice wall to produce mid-range screenshots - let me know please .. ------------------------ tl;dr: FAD sux.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Feb 2, 2012 18:41:49 GMT -5
Case Study: LMG with RF, no other attachments, no proficiencies: L86LSW: at least 850rpm but below 900rpm. MG36: at least 850rpm but below 900rpm. PKP: below 850rpm MK46: between 850 and 950rpm. (no time for more research) I spotted that MK46 can fire at 900rpm while L86 and MG36 cannot. I think it was confirmed that the L86, MG36, and MK46 fired at the same rate CORRECTION: Not PKP; MG36 I have different results. Without RF, no attachments, no proficiencies. ROF: L86 LSW: ROF estimated range 750-769rpm, maybe a bit above but cannot shot at 780rpm. MG36: ROF below 705rpm PKP: ROF below 705rpm MK46: more than 750rpm and I can shoot it at exactly 780 rpm, probably a bit higher possible, but no time for more research at the moment.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Feb 2, 2012 19:16:02 GMT -5
Anything you can do to help with the G36C go for it. G36C is the best gun available, no more research needed But I'll produce some comparisons very soon.
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Post by psijaka on Feb 3, 2012 5:41:01 GMT -5
> Could you embed the photos into your posts? tried but failed ... I can help here. You have used the "Link" address, raher than the "Direct" address, which should look something like this: img269.imageshack.us/img269/9305/psijaka.pngnote that the direct link starts with "img" followed by a 3 digit number, rather than just "imageshack.us". Copy the direct link, click on the insert image icon and paste the direct link between the img and /img tags. Job done. Hope that this helps. Just to prove it works:
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Feb 3, 2012 6:35:48 GMT -5
great, thanx, replaced links with pictures.
Case study: PM-9.
3-ROUND BURSTS
Checked again, my previous ROF observations were mistaken, some error in calculations, POST UPDATED.
ROF: wihout RF: 1090 rpm works, with RF: 1363rpm works, 25% ROF increase, but:
... but some inconsistency appears! Sometimes in the same time period, while I try to produce 3-round bursts, PM-9 fires 3 and sometimes only 2 bullets (!!) I suppose if you estimate the time PM-9 fires the whole mag you might get lower ROF, but that gun can somehow "randomly" shoot at 1090rpm and with RF at 1363rpm ... strange, I cannot explain it, maybe my hardware has some lag ... ok, more testing, I found 'stable' rates for 3-round bursts:
1) If you want PM-9 to shoot 3 round bursts EVERY TIME, you need 0.125sec fire = 960rpm (without RF) 2) With RF - If you want PM-9 to shoot 3 round bursts EVERY TIME, you need 0.102sec fire = 1176rpm. (RF= 22,5% increase)
2-ROUND BURSTS testing: now it's clear, why so many problems with 3-round bursts:
Without RF: no way, tried many times, 2 bullets regularly in 0.063 sec. = 950-960rpm, same as above. But: I can produce 2 bullets in 0,055-0,056 sec as well, not every time but probability arr. 50% ... = 1090rpm
More, with RF PM-9 can fire 2 bullets in 0,049sec. ... = ROF 1225rpm. (probablility arr 75%) and PM-9 can shoot 2 bullets in 0,044sec ... yea, it happens. ROF = 1363rpm. (probabliity arr 50%)
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tl;dr: PM-9 ROF = 1090rpm, with Rapid Fire = 1363rpm, but it is for very short bursts only. (2 and 3 rounds) If we consider PM-9 and ROF we can use a magic word called 'PROBABILITY", especially if calculating TTK ...
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