Simple TTK Chart, 100% More BTK/1000% CQ/1M% AK « Thread Started on Nov 28, 2011, 10:37am »
Updated for BTK!!!1
Updated post patch!
2ND UPDATE!!!
3rd Update!
4th Update!
5th Update!
Updated per Den's chart.
Hello all,
I have taken it upon myself to do a really simple, short TTK chart for BF3. I have to thank the Den-izens on this board who actually put in the hard work of parsing code and forming images. I just want to add this extra bit.
Things to notice: it would be nice if the guns were balanced. As it stands, there are clearly inferior guns :*( just what I didn't want. They certainly had a lot of things to pick from for balance's sake, but they chose simplicity. Looking at my numbers and recoil numbers from this site and Symthic's site, here are the clear losers (outdone in most every situation):
MY SHIZZLIST Type-88 <---edit M60E4 *unless you are awesome* Every other semi-auto sniper except M417. PP-2000 *except very close* G17C
What they did: okay, damage really shouldn't be based on bullet. The 74M, 74U, and RPK suffer from a superior fire-rate gun that uses the same round and thus needs to do the same at ~200 RPM less. Good god. Muzzle velocity is interesting and lends itself to helping the weaker guns at range, but again, the velocity is sometimes highest on the best gun in the class. Bleh.
What they could do: man up. Major patch. Give every weapon a unique charge (for RP reasons, let's say guns with lower ROF have higher charge ammunition). That way, DPS can be balanced. Initial tests reveal that you only recover spread when not firing, so a 800RPM gun fired at 650RPM will always be more accurate than a 650RPM gun natively fired at that rate.
That brings up my next point: spread recovery mechanic is terrible. Awful. It leads to most guns being horribly inaccurate after the 5th bullet, unless you tap fire. I actually like this on the more powerful guns, and I think it's a good system, but the combination of that and ROF=King means that there is no reason to use the losers mentioned above.
Illuminati Will Prevail
Honestly, I expected more. You have to be a masochist to extensively use the above weapons. It's pretty close to a fact. :*(
For your resources, and criticism. Also, if you can spot any errors in the chart, or problems with my analysis, check 'em!
Now with all 9 new weapons from CQ (no SPAS in my chart.)
Now with the pre-Armored Kill September patch changes
« Last Edit: Sept 10, 2012, 9:49am by rudybojangles »
Joined: Mar 2010 Gender: Female Posts: 10,726 Location: czech republic
Re: Simple TTK Chart « Reply #1 on Nov 28, 2011, 11:56am »
'tis true, unfortunately there are just one or two guns for every class that are even worth touching how did dice not see this? or did they see it? if yes, why did they not correct it? did they not think that anyone would notice or what?
not a big fan of the TTK thingie though to be honest. ttk is an abstract and arbitrary statistic with no real place in gameplay, since normally there is no way every bullet is a hit in sustained full auto fire outside of complete spitting distance.
'tis true, unfortunately there are just one or two guns for every class that are even worth touching how did dice not see this? or did they see it? if yes, why did they not correct it? did they not think that anyone would notice or what?
not a big fan of the TTK thingie though to be honest. ttk is an abstract and arbitrary statistic with no real place in gameplay, since normally there is no way every bullet is a hit in sustained full auto fire outside of complete spitting distance.
TTK as a statistic in BF3 is actually pretty bad, I'll agree with you there....
EXCEPT in close range, which occurs in half of the maps seemingly exclusively. TTK and hip-fire accuracy dictate close encounters. At range, TTK isn't as important as bullet damage and recoil recovery, as well as sighted spread min. Mid-range, it's a bevy of things that work. I'd say ROF actually helps at mid range and hurts at long range, but again, nothing that a quick trigger finger can't allieviate {or switching to burst/semi}.
I think a valuable derived statistic to find in this mess would be average sighted spread after x bullet. I might just make that one. Doesn't account for rapid bursts, but will give you a clearer gun accuracy. Maybe I'll try to estimate odds of hitting a standing target at 30M when aiming at chest after 4 shots. That would be the best way to determine performance at several ranges. It could be an interesting exercise.
Alas, liberal arts education here. I'm not so good at it.
Is anyone else having terrible times controlling the sighted cone of LMG's after only a few bullets?
ED: Seems like terdfergusen was thinking the way I was thinking in the graphical representation thread.
« Last Edit: Nov 28, 2011, 1:25pm by rudybojangles »
Joined: Mar 2010 Gender: Female Posts: 10,726 Location: czech republic
Re: Simple TTK Chart « Reply #4 on Nov 28, 2011, 2:46pm »
i think in this really close encounters other things (like ping) are more imortant. i use the m16 and i win about 90% of point blank encounters with f2000-guys. and i'm really not that good of a player. i think TTK is pretty much completely useless, it's just something people spend way too much time thinking about.
i think in this really close encounters other things (like ping) are more imortant. i use the m16 and i win about 90% of point blank encounters with f2000-guys. and i'm really not that good of a player. i think TTK is pretty much completely useless, it's just something people spend way too much time thinking about.
TTK may be completely useless when yes, ping dictates close range, but that doesn't explain why the guns that have the lowest TTK are the most widely used guns (in terms of automatic/burst guns). Here, I'm guilty of trying to create a controlled experiment out of something that is more of an art than a science.
The M16 does have fast projectiles, a great reload time, and isn't as wild as the AEK, so there are some things about the gun that make it shine besides damage, so that's a special case.
Also, no one denies that the A-91 is basically a crappy version of the M4A1. There is no, NO reason to use it. Same TTK, but slower reload, random horizontal recoil, and slower muzzel velocity.
But it's not like TTK DOESN'T MATTER; often-times, TTK directly determines usefulness at close-medium range. It is an important stat to be taken into account with many other important stats.
Re: Simple TTK Chart « Reply #6 on Nov 28, 2011, 3:47pm »
I have a question: do the first 2 bullets for the AN-94 come out ~(60/900) seconds apart? (900 RPM equivalent?) That would change the values there a bit, maybe make it better than the AK-74M.
Joined: Mar 2010 Gender: Female Posts: 10,726 Location: czech republic
Re: Simple TTK Chart « Reply #7 on Nov 28, 2011, 4:16pm »
well, i politely disagree. i still think that TTK is completely, or at least almost entirely useles. What use is TTK if the bullets go everywhere due to recoil and spread and only a certain percentage of the bullets hits. Recoil and Spread are far more important, unless damage per bullet or rate of fire is huuuuuuugely different.
The only real use of TTK would be on a distance where every bullet is a guaranteed hit, so lets say 10 meters and below. but the differences in the TTK between the different guns are so tiny at this distances that reacion speed will pretty much always be the deciding factor, not TTK.
TTK is nice for CoD-like hitscan based games, where a skilled player can be rather sure to bring all bullets into the target on normal, large combat distances. the spread mechanism in BF games makes it redundant.
Re: Simple TTK Chart « Reply #8 on Nov 28, 2011, 4:25pm »
until DICE decide to get around to fixing the whole deal with suppresed fire still revealing your position on the map with certain weapons, my choice of weapon when it comes to Engineer is limited to only the AKS-74u, even if it is statistically inferior.
@rudy, correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't the A-91 have lower vertical recoil than the M4A1?
I have a question: do the first 2 bullets for the AN-94 come out ~(60/900) seconds apart? (900 RPM equivalent?) That would change the values there a bit, maybe make it better than the AK-74M.
They don't. I wish they did, because again, that's how the real gun operates, but in BF3 its BurstFireRate only applies when the gun is set to burst.
Also, no one denies that the A-91 is basically a crappy version of the M4A1. There is no, NO reason to use it. Same TTK, but slower reload, random horizontal recoil, and slower muzzel velocity.
Plenty of people deny it. The A-91 is superb from the hip; it has the lowest hipfire minangle of all the carbines when standing and strafing, with the M4's ttk. The M4 is better ads'd because it has less horizontal recoil.
Muzzle velocity means absolutely nothing for guns that aren't sniper rifles. People need to stop talking about it like it's important in the way that minangle and rof are.
Clan:DarkBadEvil Fightaz of DeathCommando - Squad: Elite Ninjas
Joined: Jan 2010 Gender: Female Posts: 231
Re: Simple TTK Chart « Reply #10 on Nov 29, 2011, 8:59am »
Oh well this is a very nice chart! Thanks - unfortunately TTK is only important when ALL bullets land in fullauto mode. Which means very short distance which is only important in erm... Metro höhöhö - all other maps I have 80% of kills/deaths 20-70 meters. So this means TTK (fullauto) is not the question but WHICH weapon lands most hits in burst mode on distances like 20+ meters in faster way.
Plenty of people deny it. The A-91 is superb from the hip; it has the lowest hipfire minangle of all the carbines when standing and strafing, with the M4's ttk. The M4 is better ads'd because it has less horizontal recoil.
Ah yes, that hipfire stat is really sexy. Didn't catch that one in my quick scan. I still think that I prefer the M4A1 because of quick reloads giving massive utility advantage, but that gives me a reason to try out the A-91 hipfire only with laser sight, for kicks
Muzzle velocity means absolutely nothing for guns that aren't sniper rifles. People need to stop talking about it like it's important in the way that minangle and rof are.
I would think that muzzle velocity would make an otherwise range-limited gun much more effective at range. If the projectiles travel a whole 38% faster, (comparing the A-91 to M4) not only would your bullets reach the target faster, but would also allow you to lead moving targets less. Human predictive power is only so much. This has to be important when it takes 7 hits to kill at range as it is.
Re: Simple TTK Chart « Reply #12 on Nov 30, 2011, 7:57am »
This is neet, it would be even cooler (and vastly more useful) if TTK was nomralized for a specific target size at a specific range -- this would factor variations in weapon accuracy for rounds on a standardized size target at a particular range of effect factoring all three dimensions time, damage and accuracy...
The isomorphs for most weapons damage curves appear at average centers of roughly 15m, 35m, and > 50m which would make for some interesting comparitive ranges. And I'd choose a 15cm (6 inch) target as it can still be seen at 50m, and factors well for both headshot and shooting a target obliquely for more realistic context constraints on accuracy.
I'd give this a go if I had more time but job quest 2011 is running most of my free time into the ground...
Re: Simple TTK Chart « Reply #14 on Dec 6, 2011, 3:47pm »
Chart has been updated with new TTK. No major changes, but the P90 and MP7 got buffed into usability. I'd still prefer the VAL if I had it unlocked, but meh.
Re: Simple TTK Chart « Reply #15 on Dec 12, 2011, 2:49pm »
Fixed the AN-94. It's a screamer, and one of the cooler weapons now. We'll see how viable it is post "jam" patch. Also, the AKS-74U got an unwanted buff to 17 at range, making it usable for the time being. The reason I said it's unwanted isn't because the change actually makes sense (hint: it does) but it was confirmed by Demize that it was unintended.
RIDE THE PIG
« Last Edit: Dec 12, 2011, 2:51pm by rudybojangles »
gives me a reason to try out the A-91 hipfire only with laser sight, for kicks
used this for a minute today because the little elves on my team couldn't bring down the vehicles themselves. Just come from using PDWs as the recon, and while the laser-hipfire does start off great, it gets really wide really fast, whereas say the UMP hipfire stays incredibly tight even at the end of the magazine. Hipfire = full auto for me, so with the crazy amount it amps up, maybe not so great after all. Also, the UMP really doesn't seem that bad, and iirc stats-wise it's garbage, so I don't think we should be outraged at DICE for what are, ultimately, pretty minor differences.
edit: obv that is total heresy and against the whole raison d'etre of this place. I need to consider my sins etc. To be fair we're definitely looking at stuff more in terms of how relevant it actually is to play rather than abstracted/pure ttk/damage. we're evolving in to something beautiful.
also for whoever mentioned scaling dps: largely, it's just the bullets to kill. 3 bullets can do 75 or 99 and it doesn't really make a huge amount of difference. yeah the 99 will kill a guy on 80 health, but if that guy is only getting hit by 25 or 33 bullets, that's rare, etc etc. I actually like the damage being based off the bullets, if only because I can no longer remember all the damage stats for all the guns in the game anymore (I have ~20 grey hairs ;( )
Re: Simple TTK Chart « Reply #18 on Dec 13, 2011, 2:50am »
I agree with you, rac. Just looking at raw stats doesn't seem to tell the full story; sometimes things just seem to play out better or worse than stats would tell you
Re: Simple TTK Chart, now with 100% More BTK « Reply #24 on Dec 13, 2011, 7:53pm »
Yeah, I used it for a time, but couldn't help switching back. Now it's grach for loads where the pistol will get a lot of use, and g18 for clutch needs
is there even any difference between the grach and the m9 beyond the former's 2 extra bullets?
Joined: Dec 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 68 Location: Jersey
Re: Simple TTK Chart, now with 100% More BTK « Reply #25 on Dec 13, 2011, 8:35pm »
The garach acts up for me. It hiccups when shooting fast. I prefer the m9 suppressed. Specifically for operating behind enemy lines undetected. But gosh darn golly gee whiz does the sv98 have a huge distance drop with a suppressor. If the 45 had 12 rounds instead of 8. I would use that instead. 8 bullets is just not enough to take on 2 attackers.
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