Stopping Power is bad because it makes it difficult to balance guns with and without it. Some guns wind up useless without it, some guns are too powerful with it and people who choose other perks feel limited in their gun choice when looking statistics, and it throws weapon balance off even further in touch football. It also creates a go-to perk, it'll wind up like BO's assault rifles, unless you have a very specific purpose, you choose SP cause it's so gosh darn golly gee whiz flexible and if we're trying to promote variance, SP will kill it.
Juggernaut is bad because it mandates Stopping Power to counter it and straight up bones certain types of weapons, and if you make it so these weapons aren't screwed over then they become unpredictibly powerful with Stopping Power. (Rifles that do enough damage to kill you by hitting you in the big toe through walls)
Bring weapon penetration back (it blows in BO) and that'll do a lot to keep the pace up even with MW2 rates of fire.
<--------NO. there will be stopping power and you will LIKE IT SON
(lol jk)
but seriously, if we want balance we need it. (IMO)
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #61 on Feb 17, 2011, 10:22am »
Stopping Power is the most overrated thing ever. Seriously go into a game of MW2 with an M4 with Hardline or something right now. Just play one game and count how many times you either A. Shoot someone enough times for a kill with SP, but they run away. B. Shoot enough times for a kill with SP, but they or someone else kills you. C. Encounter a horde of enemies that you would have sprayed through with SP.
Every single time I test this I don't encounter A, B, or C. I actually benefit from SP once every 2-3 games on average. No one believes this until they try it, however. If you do try it out and do poorly, it is normally a psychological effect of feeling overwhelmed by needing to hit so many shots when you are used to just 2. But if you come straight from Black Ops using guns like the AK47, and take that experience straight to MW2 with the same gun or an equivalent, you will see just how redundant a perk Stopping Power really is.
I want SP in the game because every noob will flock to it, which means those awesome killfeeds with AC130's and the like. It will mean I can play a specialist role while everyone else is a generic soldier. SP players are nothing more than crab meat for those who are bold enough to use the truly better perks.
Stopping Power is bad because it makes it difficult to balance guns with and without it.
Because Black Ops is so balanced, right? MW2s guns are way more balanced than Black Ops, so I don't know where you're coming from saying removing stopping power fixes balance problems.
As for Natsuterran- I don't really agree with you... I see your point, and I get it, but I do think Stopping Power is still a good perk choice. It's just not the be all, end all that everyone seems to think it is.
"Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned! Ask not for whom the bone bones, it bones for thee!" - Bender
Joined: Nov 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 10,538 Location: Mil-Town
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #63 on Feb 17, 2011, 11:20am »
SP offsets other upper tier perks, just as other upper tier perks offset SP... its all a balancing act. People who complain about SP just want something to be-youch about when they decide to use another one of the tier perks and lose in one-on-one bullet confrontations. However, a lot of the time those confrontations are more affected by connection / host issues than one-less-hit for a kill potential. I never thought Hardline & Lightweight were great choices as Tier 1 perks (or Perk 2) in MW2, that's not to say they weren't excellent perks but that they don't offer enough of a benefit in regard to the other 3 Tier 1 (Perk 2) Perks. Lightweight was pretty close but it needed a little something extra to make it a more viable perk to choice verses Stopping Power, Cold Blooded, & Danger Close. Although, when paired with the extremely retarded decision of the Commando perk then Lightweight was extremely effective. Anyways, the whole idea behind these perks are the push - pull or the give - take benefits of them and they tend to dictate the type of custom class you're setting up and your game play method. I would add that Danger Close in MW2 with the ability to scavenge and replenish explosives so easily made it a very powerful perk if not the most powerful Tier 1 perk, but that didn't mean they needed to simply scrap it, but they should have toned down its advantages in other ways.
Check out my idea for a tier 1 perk listing to see how I think those perks could have been balanced and check out how there are several other ideas which help control the benefits of the top tier perks... http://denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi....lay&thread=2704
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #64 on Feb 17, 2011, 12:16pm »
Stopping Power is annoyingly ubiquitous. It is a noob crutch, but even if it's not that great, it still needs to gtfo. Maybe not so much in MW2, because red perks were pretty powerful and guns don't have recoil (I myself only have it on 2 of my 8 classes, maybe 3 if I'm having a bad day), but there really isn't anything better to choose in CoD 4 or WAW. Black Ops did it okay in my opinion, Ghost vs Flak Jacket vs Hardline (3/4/8 or whatever) is a pretty cool balance.
Stopping Power is the most overrated thing ever. Seriously go into a game of MW2 with an M4 with Hardline or something right now. Just play one game and count how many times you either A. Shoot someone enough times for a kill with SP, but they run away. B. Shoot enough times for a kill with SP, but they or someone else kills you. C. Encounter a horde of enemies that you would have sprayed through with SP.
Every single time I test this I don't encounter A, B, or C. I actually benefit from SP once every 2-3 games on average. No one believes this until they try it, however. If you do try it out and do poorly, it is normally a psychological effect of feeling overwhelmed by needing to hit so many shots when you are used to just 2. But if you come straight from Black Ops using guns like the AK47, and take that experience straight to MW2 with the same gun or an equivalent, you will see just how redundant a perk Stopping Power really is.
I want SP in the game because every noob will flock to it, which means those awesome killfeeds with AC130's and the like. It will mean I can play a specialist role while everyone else is a generic soldier. SP players are nothing more than crab meat for those who are bold enough to use the truly better perks.
Stopping Power is a game changer if you know how to use it, TAR with SP, feels like a different gun than one without and reduces it's TTK by 33%. Not to mention, in a game where it's present, the low power weapons feel lacking without it because they can be blown away by the high power weapons with it. Not to mention it almost feels mandatory on high power snipers (Black Ops snipers replicate MW2 snipers WITH Stopping Power).
Stopping Power is bad because it makes it difficult to balance guns with and without it.
Because Black Ops is so balanced, right? MW2s guns are way more balanced than Black Ops, so I don't know where you're coming from saying removing stopping power fixes balance problems.
There are many problems with BO's weapon balance, largest being copy paste jobs, but that actually reinforces my point, Black Ops weapons were designed with Stopping Power in mind, and then they removed it, however if it were still in the game, then you'd see the high power Assault Rifles and Stopping Power, AKS-74u and not much else.
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #66 on Feb 17, 2011, 3:24pm »
the perks in black ops r balanced without SP as soon as u put SP in every1 will use it. Really the only blue perk that is under used is scavanger and i really think if u switched it with SOH the perk balance would be perfect. The weapon balance in black ops isnt perfect but its better than MW2. The only balance issues in Black ops r the FAMAS, AUG, Stoner, Ak-74, and G11. In MW2 we had way more OP like ACR, FAMAS, M16, SCAR, UMP, Barret, Intervention, TAR, AK-47, M4 most of these r due to the lack of recoil in MW2 (stupid no recoil = no Skill) or gay quick scoping. Then theres the SMGs which would be good except u gimp urself by using them cause every1 else will have a long range weapon and a close range weapon(secondary shotguns and machine pistols). Black ops SMGs r underpowered but by not as much they only suffer from AR RPM. I think alot of ppl r saying MW2 was more balanced because it was more diverse. MW2 is more diverse but Black Ops is more balanced.
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #67 on Feb 17, 2011, 3:37pm »
who do you think you are saying mw2 snipers are overpowered? M21 is a copy-paste from CoD4. Wa2000 is a copy-paste of dragunov minus 4 bullets. Barret is copy-paste of a barret from CoD4. intervention is a copy-paste of a r700 plus 1 bullet. Overpowered? i think not sir. if they are anything its completely balanced. The UMP45 aint overpowered at all. If anything the MP5K would be overpowered. Ak-47 no recoil? have you played the game yet? MAYBE the ONLY OP guns were the ACR and the SCAR, but not really. Actually, i take that back. There is nothing wrong with weapons in MW2. none at all. Black Ops balanced??? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #68 on Feb 17, 2011, 3:54pm »
They r copied pasted snipers but ur forgetting about the perks slim. SP made them OP without a Juggernaut to balance, along with SOH pro, the snipers become excessively OP. Yes AK-47 has no recoil did u play COD4 do recoil tests with MW2 ARS Vs COD4 ARS the only MW2 AR with the same degree(actually more) Recoil than COD4 ARs is the F2000. The MW2 AK-47 has less recoil than the COD4 M4, Mr. TAR (which ppl say has alot of recoil) has the same recoil spread as the COD4 M4. Look at SMGs and they have the same recoil spread in both games. COD4 SMGs = COD4 ARs. MW2 ARs > MW2 SMGs, and thats before u take secondary weapons into account. UMP was OP because its the only SMG that could compete with ARs at all. LMGs were not OP or UP they were jus ok anything u could do with them u could do with an SP AR better. Black OPS isnt Balanced but its more balanced then Modern Warfare 2.
"Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned! Ask not for whom the bone bones, it bones for thee!" - Bender
Joined: Nov 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 10,538 Location: Mil-Town
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #71 on Feb 17, 2011, 4:28pm »
You could have great success with nearly all weapons in MW2. There are a few weapons which suffered a bit in comparison to their counterparts such as the F2000, TMP, Deagle, and M240 (you could even argue that the M21 is one too although it did have a dominate role in 3rd person perspective games) which isn't to say that their bad weapons but that they suffer from some design aspect which hampers them in comparison to their brethren. F2000 was like a submachine gun with crazy recoil and extended range, the TMP only lacked magazine size, the Deagle is a be-youch to control, and the M240 is pretty much outclassed by the other machine guns. You could still have pretty good success with these weapons, I know I've had great success with the TMP plenty of times but that still doesn't change the fact that they were the most gimped weapons in comparison to all of the others. I didn't feel like any actual weapon was really overpowered except the original form of the Models and to a degree the Grenade Launchers when paired with Scavenger + Danger Close.
I don't know if you consider the Knife as a weapon in considerable terms, but I think this is the only real true OP weapon in the game and especially when combined with Commando or Commando + Lightweight or Commando + Lightweight + Marathon.
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #72 on Feb 17, 2011, 4:41pm »
@ swoop. Sure, the Tar *feels* extra deadly when you've got SP on it. It feels like a one bullet kill. Truth be told though that it doesn't matter at all. I'm serious. I can go play 25 games on MW2 right now without SP and do fine. If I lose a 1v1 battle, I probably will not have even hit him once. If I win the battle, he most likely never hit me once. With damage view kick, all you need to do is hit someone once and you just won the fight. The only difference is being able to take people out as they are fleeing. And once you get good enough to do that you won't need SP. I used to think SP was a must, but if you honestly sit down and record like 100 games you will find SP actually saving you and getting you the kill like 12 times max.
@ i8. You say snipers were balanced in COd4 because you could counter them with juggernaut and they couldn't aim fast? I say snipers were underpowered in cod4 because of those two things. They were clearly just a little below perfectly balanced in MW2 (I thought they could still be a bit better). There's a reason no competitive player would be caught dead entering a tournament with a friggin sniper rifle class. It just won't work against anyone but worse players.
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #74 on Feb 17, 2011, 5:37pm »
If u had SP on any sniper except M40 and M21 in COD4 and hit a JUG in the chest it would still kill him to say this is underpowered is ignorance ppl like u want a OHK everywhere sniper which is overpowered in every since of the word
u can have great sucess with anything in black ops that doesnt mean its balanced
I don't think Black Ops weapons are all that unbalanced, I think the bigger problem is that the balancing is boring and bland that the few advantages some weapons have in particular areas make them seem so much more powerful. This is why you can have pretty good success with most weapons in Black Ops as well.
thats all u can say, i guess when ppl cant argue with fact they jus blow it off
No. because we can argue all day, and nothing will change the game. Infinity ward, sledgehammer and raven decide what they want to put into their product. Not us, and i'm okay with that. They know how to make consumers happy enough to buy it, so i really cant dis any of the companies. If you really think you have a good idea, go ahead and tell infinity ward. I wish you the best of luck.
The only balance issues in Black ops r the FAMAS, AUG, Stoner, Ak-74, and G11. In MW2 we had way more OP like ACR, FAMAS, M16, SCAR, UMP, Barret, Intervention, TAR, AK-47, M4 most of these r due to the lack of recoil in MW2 (stupid no recoil = no Skill) or gay quick scoping. Then theres the SMGs which would be good except u gimp yourself by using them...
I think you have a different idea of what balance means than I do (and probably the other people in this discussion as well).
You made a list of your 5 best candidates for weapons in Blops that are overpowered. Those weapons are balanced (more or less) vs. each other. OP compared to other guns in the game.
In MW2 you mentioned 10 guns (and I might add that your missing several guns that are equally powerful).
To me, that says that MW2 is more balanced. If you're playing Blops and you actually want to win, you can choose one of 5 guns. If you're playing MW2 and you actually want to win, you have (I'll go with your list) 10 guns. Sounds like MW2 is twice as balanced. In addition to that, it also has more diversity.
You're problem is not so much with balance between guns, but more with all the guns being more powerful that you would like. And I can see that. The guns do have low recoil. Basically what they seem to have done was say "In CoD4, the M16 was too good. Let's make every other gun just as good as it was, since we're bringing it back for MW2."
Having played Blops, I think I prefer the low recoil. Maybe it makes me a noob, but I get frustrated when despite my burst firing to all get out, My recoil just keeps going all over the place, and someone else full autos me down.
One more thing, and then I'm done. MW2 SMGs were most definitely not underpowered. I am an avid SMG user and the UMP, Mini Uzi, P90, and Vector are all very competent weapons. Almost forgot the MP5k, that thing was a boss, I love it. Their high fire rates make silencers and/or not using stopping power very viable (or in the UMPs case, it's minimal use of stopping power). They traded off long range fighting ability for additional mobility, which came up huge in CQB as well as gaining positions of advantage.
In Black Ops the SMGs come down to AK74u most of the time, Spectre/MPL if you want a silencer. Anything else and you're just messing around.
The only balance issues in Black ops r the FAMAS, AUG, Stoner, Ak-74, and G11. In MW2 we had way more OP like ACR, FAMAS, M16, SCAR, UMP, Barret, Intervention, TAR, AK-47, M4 most of these r due to the lack of recoil in MW2 (stupid no recoil = no Skill) or gay quick scoping. Then theres the SMGs which would be good except u gimp yourself by using them...
I think you have a different idea of what balance means than I do (and probably the other people in this discussion as well).
You made a list of your 5 best candidates for weapons in Blops that are overpowered. Those weapons are balanced (more or less) vs. each other. OP compared to other guns in the game.
In MW2 you mentioned 10 guns (and I might add that your missing several guns that are equally powerful).
To me, that says that MW2 is more balanced. If you're playing Blops and you actually want to win, you can choose one of 5 guns. If you're playing MW2 and you actually want to win, you have (I'll go with your list) 10 guns. Sounds like MW2 is twice as balanced. In addition to that, it also has more diversity.
You're problem is not so much with balance between guns, but more with all the guns being more powerful that you would like. And I can see that. The guns do have low recoil. Basically what they seem to have done was say "In CoD4, the M16 was too good. Let's make every other gun just as good as it was, since we're bringing it back for MW2."
Having played Blops, I think I prefer the low recoil. Maybe it makes me a noob, but I get frustrated when despite my burst firing to all get out, My recoil just keeps going all over the place, and someone else full autos me down.
One more thing, and then I'm done. MW2 SMGs were most definitely not underpowered. I am an avid SMG user and the UMP, Mini Uzi, P90, and Vector are all very competent weapons. Almost forgot the MP5k, that thing was a boss, I love it. Their high fire rates make silencers and/or not using stopping power very viable (or in the UMPs case, it's minimal use of stopping power). They traded off long range fighting ability for additional mobility, which came up huge in CQB as well as gaining positions of advantage.
In Black Ops the SMGs come down to AK74u most of the time, Spectre/MPL if you want a silencer. Anything else and you're just messing around.
TL/DR Black Ops Sucks, MW2 RULZZZ!!! Sorry...
heh. thats a point of view i never heard before. i sort of tend to agree.
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #79 on Feb 17, 2011, 8:48pm »
all guns are capable of performing rape in mw2 (yes, every single one) all guns are capable of performing rape in COD4 (in the right hands) only a select few are capable of rape in black ops...yeah... i wouldn't mind getting stopping power back, but under these conditions
« Last Edit: Feb 17, 2011, 8:58pm by saddaminsane »
all guns are capable of performing rape in mw2 (yes, every single one) all guns are capable of performing rape in COD4 (in the right hands) only a select few are capable of rape in black ops...yeah... i wouldn't mind getting stopping power back, but under these conditions
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #82 on Feb 18, 2011, 1:49am »
I don't really hate Blops. I just hate playing it by myself. Which wasn't true for MW2... but still, when I play with friends, Blops is pretty much just as fun as MW2,
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #83 on Feb 18, 2011, 3:36am »
ur SMG statement doesnt hold water cause snipers in MW2 run at the same speed as the SMGs and u get a secondary shotgun or machine pistol so u have long range, short range and mobility this makes SMGs a redundant gimp except on the UMP which has long range capabilities.
Yes the guns r too strong in MW2 thats y i dont play Touch Football in COD i want Call of Duty damage and recoil like COD2 (minus sniper strength) which was COD4 minus stopping power (which is y i used Juggernaut on every class) MW2 is way too noob friendly and takes no skill its a match of who sees who first. There r no firefights because the weapons r way too accurate and with Stopping Power and flinch u basically have no chance too retaliate. This does 2 things 1. slows down gameplay 2. makes it a camp fest. This is all even before i mention the knife and Skill Cannons
Bottom line is COD4 had it right except M16 and perk balance so y did they change it? to make more sales to the casual gamer turning the game into an easy noob fest
ur SMG statement doesnt hold water cause snipers in MW2 run at the same speed as the SMGs and u get a secondary shotgun or machine pistol so u have long range, short range and mobility this makes SMGs a redundant gimp except on the UMP which has long range capabilities.
Yes the guns r too strong in MW2 thats y i dont play Touch Football in COD i want Call of Duty damage and recoil like COD2 (minus sniper strength) which was COD4 minus stopping power (which is y i used Juggernaut on every class) MW2 is way too noob friendly and takes no skill its a match of who sees who first. There r no firefights because the weapons r way too accurate and with Stopping Power and flinch u basically have no chance too retaliate. This does 2 things 1. slows down gameplay 2. makes it a camp fest. This is all even before i mention the knife and Skill Cannons
Bottom line is COD4 had it right except M16 and perk balance so y did they change it? to make more sales to the casual gamer turning the game into an easy noob fest
SMG's doo-doo on Machine Pistols in their effective range, and have medium range capabilities MP's don't (Unless we're talking about Raffies). Also, how does people dieing faster slow down gameplay? Despite what people say, I think the amount of tactical loitering has stayed pretty consistent between CoD's.
But this is a point I wanna stress, just about every gun fight in every FPS is going to boil down to who pulls the trigger first.
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #85 on Feb 18, 2011, 2:28pm »
The whole point of running secondaries that aren't pistols, launchers, or shotguns was always lost on me.
You could choose a machine pistol, or you could just swap out your pistol for a real gun when you get the opportunity... which is exactly what I would do if I were running any machine pistol besides akimbo rafficas anyways, because Machine pistols are ALMOST as good as Primary weapons (SMGs included) but still not as good. So just use a primary.
And if you choose a shotgun secondary, you're probably just going to use it as your primary anyway, so it's not really a huge issue. The swap takes too long for it to be a change you can make on the fly.
The whole point of running secondaries that aren't pistols, launchers, or shotguns was always lost on me.
You could choose a machine pistol, or you could just swap out your pistol for a real gun when you get the opportunity... which is exactly what I would do if I were running any machine pistol besides akimbo rafficas anyways, because Machine pistols are ALMOST as good as Primary weapons (SMGs included) but still not as good. So just use a primary.
And if you choose a shotgun secondary, you're probably just going to use it as your primary anyway, so it's not really a huge issue. The swap takes too long for it to be a change you can make on the fly.
Swap times on the pistols and machine pistols were much faster than primaries which is most surely a good reason to use them. Not to mention up close and personal, where you're most likely to switch to them, they can pawn opponents especially when duel wielded.
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #87 on Feb 18, 2011, 7:19pm »
No I definitely get Pistols, but Machine pistols (exception of raffica, and unless it was akimbo not really then) swaps were not really fast enough to be viable to try and switch mid battle.
No I definitely get Pistols, but Machine pistols (exception of raffica, and unless it was akimbo not really then) swaps were not really fast enough to be viable to try and switch mid battle.
Preemptive swap, the only real reason to carry them was if you ran out of ammo or had a Sniper Rifle in the primary.
Re: Modern Warfare 3 Perks « Reply #89 on Feb 18, 2011, 9:19pm »
The secondary weapons in MW2 weren't made to be useless throwaways once you come across a primary on the ground like previous (and later) COD games. They were there to reduce weaknesses of the chosen primary weapon.
Both weapons are important in a class.
The Pistols were more powerful then all other iterations, more long range base damage. The Magnum is not unlike a 'Mini FAL'. The M9 and USP were similar, more capacity, less accuracy and power. The fast draw made them great for empty mag emergencies as well as close-mid range precision.
The Raffica is a weaker version of a FAMAS/M16, an accurate burst rifle. When akimbo, it was not unlike a makeshift shotgun. It had two unique niches like that.
Machine Pistols are weapons you switch to in-transit rather than during combat with the QuickRaise Pistols. I'm not going to enter a room with a sniper rifle, I'll already have my PP2000 prepared as I approach the door. They are for Primary compensation rather than emergency use like the Pistols.
The PP2000 and TMP are there to be weak accurate machineguns. They don't size up to the Primary SMGs in close range killing power, but they act more like a miniature accurate assault rifle like the ACR or SCAR, better for the midfield. They go great with weapons that have speed disadvantages like an LMG or Riot Shield in large maps, or for those using sniper rifles in smaller ones. The G18 is a crazy bullet hose. It isn't anything special when you've got one in hand, but Akimbo wreaks havoc (its tight spread could use some tuning). It is more or less a more exaggerated Vector with greater recoil.
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