according to turtle beach the "Sonic Lens™ + Sound Field Expander" feature will grant the following "Widen or narrow the sound field to focus on audio cues that are difficult to hear like footsteps sneaking up on you or the click of someone reloading in the distance."
and btw, sit rep does not always show explosives until it's too late. sometimes i just dont see the claymore or whatever it is until im right in front of it. im certain some of you have experienced this, too. anyway, interesting thread!
BLOPS in its current incarnation has the enemies sounding about 1/2 as loud as your teammates, if you're using Ninja Pro. If you're not using Ninja Pro, good luck hearing your enemies at all.
Really, I don't know what blops you are playing because my experience is completely different.
Re: Hallelujah! Dead Silence nerf in the pipe! « Reply #34 on Feb 20, 2012, 6:43pm »
You're absolutely correct about BLOPS and ninja. There was essentially no need for it.
But lets not pretend that Stalker is the only thing that makes people not use equipment. It certainly does cut down on deaths from equipment, but betties are easy to avoid, and cause 10x more team kills than otherwise. And claymores seem (?) weak. I played a couple games of blops last week and it felt as if the claymores detonated almost imediately when I tripped them. It felt 'right' to me.
We could also account for map design here, too. Getting only 1 claymore when enemies can come at you from about 4 different ways makes it a pretty poor investment. Couple to that the 'jumpy' spawns and it makes it hard to predict exactly where enemies will be coming from, and more than likely they'll either see it or be running stalker anyway.
I recall running straight at a claymore and jumping over it without dying (must have been a shotgun class) on Arkaden I believe. Never would have happened in previous iterations of the game. Honestly, who remembers bouncing betties from WaW? Where you were forced to either run them or bomb squad... I guess that's the other extreme here. Man, you could plant those INSIDE staircases, and in the river on Makin. Friggin impossible to see.....
Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 735 Location: Southern California, USA
Re: Hallelujah! Dead Silence nerf in the pipe! « Reply #37 on Feb 20, 2012, 6:59pm »
yep. Sometimes, it doesn't matter - on Interchange, there's a sweet betty trap I have fallen for twice. Hitting the dirt by reflex when you hear it go off means you die anyways.
Why do I feel strongly about it? Because I cannot do anything about it at all, and it alone accounts for a significant proportion of my deaths. Not FMG9s, not T95s, but DSP. It's actually used pretty often in TDM, and, like you said, I am mystified as to why - this isn't SND. (Incidentally, DSP is why I don't play SND, and yes, Stalker and Steady Aim users do outnumber DSP users, and DSP gets a free ride on Stalker's immunity to equipment, which is why equipment is so rare in TDM) And that's why it's used. It has no counter. There's literally no way to undo the advantage Dead Silence gives its users.
I use Dead Silence on a majority of my classes regardless to what game-type I'm playing mostly because of my play-style. I like to run and gun with pretty much most of my classes, so the Dead Silence perk aids me in this game-play tactic more so than most of the other perks in that tier, which is why I select it as much as I do. The only other one to aid me in my rushing mode is Steady Aim, but I usually value the reduced sound and no fall damage more than a steadier hip-fire aim and a quicker weapon use after sprinting ability.
Currently, out of my ten custom classes, I have Dead Silence set-up as the default perk on six, with Marksman on two, and Steady Aim on the last. Now, if they fix the SitRep Pro perk to actually counter Dead Silence users I may adjust the amount of classes with the Dead Silence perk from six to three or four. I would use the SitRep perk over the Dead Silence perk for those classes if it actually countered the Dead Silence perk and hopefully it will soon. Just to note: I do use the Stalker perk too, but only with the Specialist Package.
Also, what do you mean "...DSP gets a free ride on Stalker's immunity to equipment"?
Maybe at first, but once they adjusted the audio, ninja pro quite obviously amplified enemy footsteps.
You were asking if a Ninja Pro could hear another Ninja Pro. Since Ninja Pros make absolutely no sound, the sound amplification that Ninjas receive is meaningless.
@shak, Dead Silence comes at the cost of the other perks in the same tier or any other perk if using Specialist. In the same tier, Stalker and Steady Aim directly relate to mobility and are, in of themselves, very powerful.
Also, what do you mean "...DSP gets a free ride on Stalker's immunity to equipment"?
He means that because of Stalker's equipment immunity and how prevalent it is in the community, many people have abandoned claymores and betties, thus allowing the other three perks in the same tier to not worry about the same.
...but if Stalker is so prevalent, where are all these Ninjas coming from?
Re: Hallelujah! Dead Silence nerf in the pipe! « Reply #40 on Feb 20, 2012, 7:08pm »
dead silence doesn't necessarily need a direct counter, although i agree that sitrep should cancel it out.
if you use dead silence you can't use marksmen and so will not be able to see other players as well, and won't be able to use stalker and so will lose alot more gunfights cos you can't really strafe and ads, and won't be able to use steady aim, so again will lose more gunfights. i think the 3rd tier perks are pretty well balanced, and all of them have their place.
Why do I feel strongly about it? Because I cannot do anything about it at all, and it alone accounts for a significant proportion of my deaths. Not FMG9s, not T95s, but DSP. It's actually used pretty often in TDM, and, like you said, I am mystified as to why - this isn't SND. (Incidentally, DSP is why I don't play SND, and yes, Stalker and Steady Aim users do outnumber DSP users, and DSP gets a free ride on Stalker's immunity to equipment, which is why equipment is so rare in TDM) And that's why it's used. It has no counter. There's literally no way to undo the advantage Dead Silence gives its users.
I use Dead Silence on a majority of my classes regardless to what game-type I'm playing mostly because of my play-style. I like to run and gun with pretty much most of my classes, so the Dead Silence perk aids me in this game-play tactic more so than most of the other perks in that tier, which is why I select it as much as I do. The only other one to aid me in my rushing mode is Steady Aim, but I usually value the reduced sound and no fall damage more than a steadier hip-fire aim and a quicker weapon use after sprinting ability.
Currently, out of my ten custom classes, I have Dead Silence set-up as the default perk on six, with Marksman on two, and Steady Aim on the last. Now, if they fix the SitRep Pro perk to actually counter Dead Silence users I may adjust the amount of classes with the Dead Silence perk from six to three or four. I would use the SitRep perk over the Dead Silence perk for those classes if it actually countered the Dead Silence perk and hopefully it will soon. Just to note: I do use the Stalker perk too, but only with the Specialist Package.
Also, what do you mean "...DSP gets a free ride on Stalker's immunity to equipment"?
He means that because so many people use stalker, and thus are essentially immune to equipment, that there is no reason to even bother using equipment.
Also, what do you mean "...DSP gets a free ride on Stalker's immunity to equipment"?
Coming from a TDM perspective:
The percentage of players in any given game who are running Stalker is pretty high - I'd estimate 1/2 the players or more generally are running Stalker. The others are almost always Steady Aim or Dead Silence. Marksman is more rare than Dead Silence.
Since such a high proportion of players are running Stalker, ambush equipment is deployed VERY rarely. IMSs are generally only seen if a care package delivers them. This is because you have a very high chance of getting your equipment countered by Stalkers, so it makes more sense to pack a semtex or frag.
TL/DR: what parryhotter said.
@ mega: you write "Dead Silence comes at the cost of the other perks in the same tier or any other perk if using Specialist. In the same tier, Stalker and Steady Aim directly relate to mobility and are, in of themselves, very powerful."
I agree, but as I explain above, Dead Silence gets Stalker's metagame advantage already: hardly anybody uses equipment anymore. Most DS users also run SMGs, so the movement speed while ADSed is obtained as well.
The problem is intensified in FFA, where DS performs the same function as SRP - if you can hear them, they're the bad guys (even better, because they certainly didn't hear you). That performs the same function that Steady Aim Pro performs - by giving you advance warning to stop running and bring up your weapon.
He means that because so many people use stalker, and thus are essentially immune to equipment, that there is no reason to even bother using equipment.
He means that because of Stalker's equipment immunity and how prevalent it is in the community, many people have abandoned claymores and betties, thus allowing the other three perks in the same tier to not worry about the same.
...but if Stalker is so prevalent, where are all these Ninjas coming from?
I see.
However, I guess I didn't realize Stalker was that heavily used, which is probably because of my own limited use of it. Yet, most of the people I've talked to about custom classes also don't make use of it and a lot of the classes I've seen while playing against people usually don't make use of it either. Most I know make use of Marksman #1, Dead Silence #2a, and Steady Aim #2b... rarely SitRep and Stalker.
Re: Hallelujah! Dead Silence nerf in the pipe! « Reply #44 on Feb 20, 2012, 7:42pm »
Well, I use stalker quite a bit.
And it does put me into bad habits, like trying to aim first and THEN come around the corner.
That tactic yields incredibly poor results when using dead silence.
My initial reaction to it was that it would definitely be good for the game, as kind of a lag neutralizer. I'm not sure if that's still the case or not. But, it's my general yellow perk for any assault rifle class when we play anything besides SnD.
Except, of course, if I run into a good player who is rocking sitrep pro, and appears to be soundwhoring me. Then I'll switch to DS just to piss him off (not really, but sort of )
Stalker also reduces the penalty for not using quickdraw, which would then of course encourage the use of assassin. But by using Stalker, you know he's not using dead silence....
Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 735 Location: Southern California, USA
Re: Hallelujah! Dead Silence nerf in the pipe! « Reply #45 on Feb 20, 2012, 7:49pm »
Alas, on PS3, Stalker is only inconsistently audible to SRP. Replays don't illustrate this properly, and I don't have a PVR to record games live to show the devs. I watch killcams for every player that surprises me to figure out what I should have done differently, and I've seen Stalkers approach me at a dead sprint, making all kinds of racket to themselves, yet I heard nary a thing.
Frankly, I'm waiting still for someone to tell me how it is that perfect silence without mobility cost is acceptable, and perfect invisibility without mobility cost is not.
Okay.
I personally believe that DS should be countered by SR, but otherwise I'm all for perfect silence without mobility cost.
Why? Because you have to give up a perk to achieve it (or if you get it via Specialist, you have to give up valuable killstreaks). Because although powerful, it is competing against other approximately equal perks in that tier. Because it is simply not as good as perfect invisibility would be.
I mean, have you really thought this through? Perfect invisibility would render a player absolutely impossible to attack from any distance outside of hearing range. One could not even get an inkling of his location. Even if you were in the same room as an invisible player who was making noise, you couldn't pinpoint his exact location and would be forced to resort to spraying and praying. A crouching invisible player could simply walk up to you directly in your line of sight and knife you in the face. When is that last time a player with dead silence did that to you?
Essentially, perfect silence is just plain worse than perfect invisibility. In real life, humans rely more the visual than the aural, and Call of Duty is built to reflect that. Visual identification provides two major advantages over auditory identification. First of all, it is far less limited by distance. I can see a man approaching me from a mile away, but I'm not going to hear him unless he's yelling. Second, it is more precise. Visual identification provides players with an enemy's exact location, whereas aural identification provides merely a general direction. It is also less likely to be confused by multiple inputs. If I'm blindfolded and three people are running circles around me, it would be nearly impossible for me to keep track of a single individual by sound alone. On the other hand, if my ears were plugged and three people ran circles around me, I would easily be able to track any individual with my eyes.
Frankly, I'm rather surprised I really needed to explain that to you. I agree with previous posters that a lot of this should have been obvious, just based on your own real world experiences.
Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 735 Location: Southern California, USA
Re: Hallelujah! Dead Silence nerf in the pipe! « Reply #47 on Feb 20, 2012, 8:41pm »
Actually, as I pointed out in the community thread, I have been around long enough to remember when invisibility was featured in most First Person Shooters. So, it's not that I haven't thought this through: I've been through it. To me, in principle, they are the same, even if one has a stronger effect on gameplay than the other.
I will post more on this later if you really wish to continue this discussion.
Alas, on PS3, Stalker is only inconsistently audible to SRP. Replays don't illustrate this properly, and I don't have a PVR to record games live to show the devs. I watch killcams for every player that surprises me to figure out what I should have done differently, and I've seen Stalkers approach me at a dead sprint, making all kinds of racket to themselves, yet I heard nary a thing.
This is my main beef with SRP. Right now, it's the only counter to MW3's poopy audio. If perks like stalker didn't grant DSP, it wouldn't be such a big deal. On top of that, now that they are patching the trophy glitch, you will end up with many players who essentially cheated to get SRP, and now the only counter to it is being nerfed. Perfect reward for players who exploited the glitch.
Maybe if inifinityward fixes their poopy audio, or at least patches in an option to turn off music, those of us without sitrep pro will have a chance to actually hear the non DSP users. Of course that will make SRP even more powerful, and slow down game play even more. I'm guessing it's too much to ask to have audio balance like it was in mw2.
But it's not like I play this game anymore, so why do I even care.
Actually, as I pointed out in the community thread, I have been around long enough to remember when invisibility was featured in most First Person Shooters. So, it's not that I haven't thought this through: I've been through it. To me, in principle, they are the same, even if one has a stronger effect on gameplay than the other.
I will post more on this later if you really wish to continue this discussion.
You said it yourself, one has a stronger effect on gameplay than the other. Principle doesn't matter, game play does.
Actually, as I pointed out in the community thread, I have been around long enough to remember when invisibility was featured in most First Person Shooters. So, it's not that I haven't thought this through: I've been through it. To me, in principle, they are the same, even if one has a stronger effect on gameplay than the other.
I will post more on this later if you really wish to continue this discussion.
You said it yourself, one has a stronger effect on gameplay than the other. Principle doesn't matter, game play does.
Not only that, but I don't even think the principle is sound. shaktazuki , I suspect you are greatly oversimplifying the mechanics of those older games in order to make your case. I would be willing to bet that invisibility in those games was not a permanent attribute of the player's avatar, but rather something that had to be earned by some means. I'd also be willing to bet that it generally had a time limit.
I wouldn't for example, be against some form of time-limited invisibility as a killstreak reward in some hypothetical futuristic Call of Duty game. But it is far too powerful to be a constant effect.
Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 735 Location: Southern California, USA
Re: Hallelujah! Dead Silence nerf in the pipe! « Reply #52 on Feb 20, 2012, 10:27pm »
Let me continue with my previous response.
The question I asked is: "how it is that perfect silence without mobility cost is acceptable, and perfect invisibility without mobility cost is not."
The answer I got from Honeybunch was NOT an explanation of how perfect silence without mobility cost IS acceptable, but rather that perfect invisibility without mobility cost IS NOT acceptable because perfect invisibility has a stronger effect on gameplay.
In other words, Honeybunch, you appear to concede that perfect silence is, in fact, a bad thing; it's just that perfect invisibility would be worse.
But why, then, have either? They're both bad, and for the same reason.
And yes, I concede that invisibility was a time-limited power-up in those games. I said as much in the MW3 community thread. It also was not perfect invisibility - in Quake, you were a couple of eyeballs floating around. In Descent, you had essentially the Predator's camo effect going on. I think in Q3A that it was close to perfect invisibility. But even back then, the devs realized you cannot have perfect stealth - neither audio, nor visual - without negative impact on gameplay.
I have imagined a 15 killstreak reward - assault, of course - where the user would be granted a Predator - camo effect, along with the restrictions that A) you were limited to melee and throwing knives only, and B) you had to have thermal vision, and C) you could NOT receive the anti-thermal property of Assassin, nor the silent footsteps of Dead Silence.
Or, make that a perk. Balance issues arise, but can be dealt with.
« Last Edit: Feb 20, 2012, 10:45pm by shaktazuki »
Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 735 Location: Southern California, USA
Re: Hallelujah! Dead Silence nerf in the pipe! « Reply #53 on Feb 20, 2012, 10:57pm »
Yay, details!
Quote:
elantern wrote:
Quote:
dedicatedserversplease wrote:
Quote:
To anyone that can remember or has tested this, how did Sitrep Pro work in MW2? Thanks Peter
It pretty much cancelled the default benefits of the Ninja Perk, just as the Ninja Perk countered the benefit from SitRep Pro. There was a sound cancelation... Someone using the SitRep Pro would hear the player using the Ninja Perk as if neither player had the use of thier perk's sound changing abilities. The Ninja Perk user wouldn't be silent anymore, but they wouldn't be as loud to the user of the SitRep Pro perk either... they basically would sound as loud as the SitRep user's teammates.
This is the correct functionality. This is what we are fixing.
Cheers,
G IH A IN ID II
To think, I have never experienced SRP the way it was SUPPOSED to be. Ahhhhhh this is gonna rule!
« Last Edit: Feb 20, 2012, 10:59pm by shaktazuki »
When I choose Dead Silence, I'm giving up mobility.
Stalker allows me to aim AND continue to walk at a normal rate. I remember a time when ADSing and walking SILENCED footsteps. Clearly, they realized that Stalker would be way OP if there was no noise during ADS, and they changed that.
Steady Aim allows me to aim faster after sprinting, and usually without ADSing.
Sitrep means I never need worry about any explosives (so, less checking corners for those)
What you are suggesting essentially eliminates a perk from play. Imagine a competitive game of CoD here.
Player A and Player B both use dead silence : neither can hear the other.
Player A chooses Sitrep while Player B chooses dead silence: Player B is at a CLEAR DISADVANTAGE.
Player A and Player B choose Sitrep : neither can hear the other, because both are always crouch walking.
You can see that there is absolutely choice in the matter. Sitrep becomes the automatic perk. In essence, all you've done is changed the (necessary to be competitive) perk, and in the process slowed down gameplay. I realize that the typical MLG type setup would probably outlaw Sitrep at this point, but that point is moot (for reference, I don't do gamebattles or MLG). You've made the game less exciting, and less fun in the process.
Tell me how thats balanced Or how it's good for the community?
It pretty much cancelled the default benefits of the Ninja Perk, just as the Ninja Perk countered the benefit from SitRep Pro. There was a sound cancelation... Someone using the SitRep Pro would hear the player using the Ninja Perk as if neither player had the use of thier perk's sound changing abilities. The Ninja Perk user wouldn't be silent anymore, but they wouldn't be as loud to the user of the SitRep Pro perk either... they basically would sound as loud as the SitRep user's teammates.
This is the correct functionality. This is what we are fixing.
Cheers,
G IH A IN ID II
To think, I have never experienced SRP the way it was SUPPOSED to be. Ahhhhhh this is gonna rule![/quote]
This sounds a lot more balanced than just having SRP counter DS.
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