wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 13:28:26 GMT -5
This is a very interesting topic (and a foreseeable very hot debate :-) ) originated from this discussion: denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=5464 , so I am creating a dedicated thread. IMHO: yes, and I think that the following design in BO2 makes the game more skill based: 1) Weapon has significant recoil. So gun skill is more important; 2) While on the surface the pick-10 system provides more freedom of choice, behind the curtain it significantly reduces the power a custom loadout can give to players to neutralize the skill factors: - No perks provide weapon enhancement;
- No pro perks, and each perk only offers a subset of abilities of what perks can do in previous CoD games;
- 2-attachment weapons are much less powerful compared to previous CoD. Even with 3 attachments the weapons are less powerful, and it cost you 5 points.
3) Discourage cheap tactics and/or provide counters: - C-a-m-p-i-n-g: nerf ghost, introduce MMS;
- H-e-a-d Glitching: bullet penetration, introduce TF (which is also arguably noob friendly)
- Sound whoring: sound environment much much less friendly;
- Explosive spam: Flak Jacket & Tac Mask;
4) Skill based match making: Almost every player suffers a significant KDR drop; Most games played are hard fought battles; Stomping & pwning games are few and far between; High score streaks are in general out of reach... 5) Score streaking encourages playing for objectives, and KD whores who don't know how to win can't win. Just yesterday alone I have > 10 Dom games of which the majority of my entire team have negative KD spread while the majority of the opposing team have positive KD spread, and yet we still won. The only games we lost are against superior team who are trying to win as hard as us.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 13:29:17 GMT -5
Different opinions in the other thread: PreludeAt this point it should be no surprise to everybody here that BO2 is more skill based than previous CoD. Almost every player suffers a significant KDR drop; Most games played are hard fought battles; Stomping & pwning games are few and far between; High score streaks are in general out of reach... To me, this means that skill is LESS of a factor. If all players are moving towards a 1.0 KD, it means luck is a much bigger factor than before and it's making everyone get similar results. If skill was such a big deal, you'd see good players slaughtering the bad ones constantly. Moyer, good point. Does anyone know if, in general, Touch Football-only players have a higher KD than non touch-football players? Cuz I have always considered touch football a lower skill-based game than core so I'd be curious if a low K/D number would support that theory. I haven't decided yet if BO2 is a higher skill-based game or not. High TTK games are typically higher-skill. They have defiantely tried to even the playing ground but not allowing sound-whoring equipment to give an edge, or really nice TVs to give as big an edge. People with crappy TVs can use Target Finder scopes to make up that difference a bit.
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wittyscorpion
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All warfare is based on deception.
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 13:34:39 GMT -5
God da mnit boy, you still don't know how to ce[ b][/ b]nsor bypa[ b][/ b]ss? that being said, I do agree that it's more skill based in the sense that the game takes pressure off of strategy by impeding the success of older methods (spawntraps, tactical loitering, etc) Thanks for the tips on the censor bypass. However, it takes more key strokes to do that than just putting in dashes :-)
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Post by Broadband on Nov 26, 2012 13:38:03 GMT -5
Sound whoring is cheap? Facepalm
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 13:40:01 GMT -5
Sound whoring is cheap? Facepalm I have a simple definition of "cheapness": if I can use a tactic to kill significantly better players, then it is cheap :-) In MW3: I can get my KDR up several percentage points by simply putting on SitRep pro and find a good c amping (@mousey: see what I did here :-) ) area to patrol
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Post by Broadband on Nov 26, 2012 13:41:57 GMT -5
By that same stretch, making your footsteps silent so you're immune to sound whores is cheap too, right? Because you can hear people without Dead Silence, but they cannot hear you.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 13:44:58 GMT -5
By that same stretch, making your footsteps silent so no one can hear you just so YOU can hear everything better is cheap too, right? Not exactly by my definition. In MW3, I put DS on and run around the map flanking enemy players. I can kill less skilled players this way, but not easily against more skilled players. BTW: in my dictionary cheap =/= bad. On the battlefield, you deploy whatever the best tactics to win, nobody cares whether it is cheap or not. Guerilla warfare is a great example: cheap and exceedingly effective.
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Post by alexthewhite on Nov 26, 2012 13:47:46 GMT -5
I think it's much less skill based. I'm not the greatest CoD player, I'll admit, but I sit a round 2.4-3.0KD in CoDs since CoD4. The reasons I think there is less skill and inherently more "luck" in this game: 1) Spawns. Let's be honest. Spawns are terrible at the moment, and I shouldn't have enemies spawned with crosshairs facing my back. This is usually the cause of about, no exaggeration, a quarter to half of my deaths. 2) Latency "fixes." I know this guy with a lifetime KD of .8 is not a better gunfighter than me, but yet he wins every gun fight against me, and is the only one in the lobby to do so. I can go 30-5, and have all 5 of my deaths from one guy who ends the game 5/12. There is a clear discrepancy in connection here. 3) Maps. In the old Call of Duty games (pre-3), every time you entered a room or ran down a path or did anything, there were maybe 3 spots at most you had to check in order to safely pass through. In MW3 and BLOPS2, there are 6+ spots that people can shoot you from that they reliably are at. This has a huge effect on "luck." What if I check 4 spots, and the guy is at the 5th? The enemy will have the clear advantage there. I think BLOPS 2 needs a bit more linearly designed maps. These open bombed out "shoot from everywhere" maps cater to people who can't aim and can get a cheap kill because their cam-ping spot wasn't spotted first, but chosen to be spotted last. I feel like the skill ceiling in this game has been dropped, and the skill floor was dropped as well. Hell, grenades don't even throw farther when you jump anymore
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Post by blackbarney on Nov 26, 2012 13:50:49 GMT -5
Mousey, yeah for a second there I thought I was on GameFAQs when I saw the facepalm post. Scorprion, thanks for moving the discussion here! Sorry about trolling your other topic, i should have stayed on-topic
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 26, 2012 13:53:21 GMT -5
^ That.
Also, the weapon recoil is non-existent for the most part.
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wittyscorpion
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All warfare is based on deception.
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 13:55:26 GMT -5
Mousey, yeah for a second there I thought I was on GameFAQs when I saw the facepalm post. Scorprion, thanks for moving the discussion here! Sorry about trolling your other topic, i should have stayed on-topic That's totally fine. I made a controversial statement in my post and it is bound to attract counter arguments. It is a great topic to discuss and here we are :-)
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Post by illram on Nov 26, 2012 14:18:49 GMT -5
I don't know if it's more skill based but 3arch is clearly trying to eliminate clear perk advantages and force players into heads up gun fights. E.g. limit much sound-whoring or stealth advantages that enabled players to consistently get the drop on others.
None of the perks seem to be "must haves." Some are clearly awful, but none are such that I feel like I am wasting a perk selecting anything else. This is sort of useful as it gives me more leeway in the pick 10 system.
Overall I still think its too early to come to any conclusions. At some point I still think the community will discover and gravitate towards objectively better loadouts than others.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Nov 26, 2012 14:25:29 GMT -5
The base metagame hasn't changed alot. You point at people with your gun. You fire. Some guns might jitter a bit upwards. Most of them don't. Person you pointed at is dead
Now that's a gross exaggaration, but CoD doesn't have very difficult or complicated shooting mechanics. So that's the same.
Killstreaks took a step back, gunfights and class preparation are more important. So in that aspect I think it's more skillfull.
But like others pointed out, the spawning "logics" don't really make sense and the most important part about CoD since the others are pretty easy, positioning, is pretty fucked up. So I don't know. It feels random and out of your hands at times.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 26, 2012 14:25:30 GMT -5
You're too nice witty not that that's a bad thing Let's be real. When talking 'nice', I'm the role model behavior for nice on this board. Witty? He's the board's biggest shiit stirrer. That guy is busting more balls than Jose Canseco in his past prime.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Nov 26, 2012 14:27:27 GMT -5
That emblem was pretty much designed for you witty lol.
I'm not entirely sure this CoD is more about skill. I think this CoD is more about "hybridization" than "specialization" There are most possible, practical, and viable tactics in this game than any other CoD. Tactician is a good example.
Specialization is far from dead. If you want to specialize in soundwhoring (using your example from another thread) with awareness/DS you not only have to "specialize" in that by being able to take advantage of the small sound advantage you are getting, but be able to get along without that 3/10 picks required to do so. You can specialize in tactical equipment by using up to 5 picks for this purpose.
However, hybridization is far more prominant... The breaking up of the stealth perks is a good example. If you want to be invisible to some things, but you don't care about being seen by other things...you can. If you want to make a hybrid rushing/sniping class...you don't have to give up as much to use overkill...you still have to option of taking any perks you want. The "greed" wildcards are more examples. You can get away with far more combinations of perks/equipment/weapons than any other CoD.
Does this lead to a more skill based CoD?
I don't think we have scratched the surface yet. This CaC system was based on a card game...so forgive me for momentarily using a TCG example. Take for example Yu-gi-oh. At the beginning there was one set way to do things. Stack your deck with high attack monsters with low costs, some mass destructions spells/traps, and some really nice equipments. Win. All the top players used seemingly similar decks.
Look at nowadays. The card pool has increased by over ten thousand. There are so many different kinds of decks topping the competitive tournaments. It isn't just one method of doing things. Now there are many many ways of doing things. The larger pool has allowed the metagame more room to grow. What you see at the top is the very best hybrids and only a few specializations.
Yes, this game is a step in the right direction towards a more skillfull CoD.
Just give me my sound back ):
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 14:34:24 GMT -5
That emblem was pretty much designed for you witty lol. I'm not entirely sure this CoD is more about skill. I think this CoD is more about "hybridization" than "specialization" There are most possible, practical, and viable tactics in this game than any other CoD. Tactician is a good example. Specialization is far from dead. If you want to specialize in soundwhoring (using your example from another thread) with awareness/DS you not only have to "specialize" in that by being able to take advantage of the small sound advantage you are getting, but be able to get along without that 3/10 picks required to do so. You can specialize in tactical equipment by using up to 5 picks for this purpose. However, hybridization is far more prominant... The breaking up of the stealth perks is a good example. If you want to be invisible to some things, but you don't care about being seen by other things...you can. If you want to make a hybrid rushing/sniping class...you don't have to give up as much to use overkill...you still have to option of taking any perks you want. The "greed" wildcards are more examples. You can get away with far more combinations of perks/equipment/weapons than any other CoD. Does this lead to a more skill based CoD? I don't think we have scratched the surface yet. This CaC system was based on a card game...so forgive me for momentarily using a TCG example. Take for example Yu-gi-oh. At the beginning there was one set way to do things. Stack your deck with high attack monsters with low costs, some mass destructions spells/traps, and some really nice equipments. Win. All the top players used seemingly similar decks. Look at nowadays. The card pool has increased by over ten thousand. There are so many different kinds of decks topping the competitive tournaments. It isn't just one method of doing things. Now there are many many ways of doing things. The larger pool has allowed the metagame more room to grow. What you see at the top is the very best hybrids and only a few specializations. Yes, this game is a step in the right direction towards a more skillfull CoD. Just give me my sound back ): Great points. As the player community evolves, I am hoping for chess-like games between 2 cunning teams, with each member have specialized loadouts that complement each other, as well as counter classes in the back pocket to neutralize the biggest threat from enemy team when things aren't going their way, adding richer strategy elements to an FPS game. Example: as I was going through prestige 1, I did not have Flak Jacket until level 32. This means trying to cap B on opening move = deaths from explosive 90% of the time. So I opted to a different focus: Smoke + MMS. I'll toss a smoke right pass B so my brave teammates with Flak Jacket can cap B with some peace of mind, and then use MMS to shoot through smoke at enemy cappers and head g lichers. It works out much better than diving to B mindlessly and giving enemy cheap kills. I also have a loadout with Engineer+EMP+Blackhat to counter equipment/Guardian/Sentry spammers who like to "decorate" B flag with their favorite instruments :-)
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Post by blackbarney on Nov 26, 2012 14:34:28 GMT -5
I miss parapapa. There was no shiit stirrer greater than he.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 26, 2012 14:38:09 GMT -5
I miss parapapa. There was no shiit stirrer greater than he. As well as one of the worst abusers of the english language.
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wittyscorpion
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All warfare is based on deception.
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 14:40:48 GMT -5
I miss parapapa. There was no shiit stirrer greater than he. As well as one of the worst abusers of the english language. I am sure that posts with him in it must have held the record of most replies :-)
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Post by blackbarney on Nov 26, 2012 14:41:11 GMT -5
Yeah, he was clearly not an Anglophone.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Nov 26, 2012 14:54:09 GMT -5
I also have a loadout with Engineer+EMP+Blackhat to counter equipment/Guardian/Sentry spammers who like to "decorate" B flag with their favorite instruments :-) my highest scoring class atm looks a little something like this... PDW Long Barrel Laser Stinger EMP Tactician Black Hat Black Hat Engineer Scavenger Flak Jacket though I can't use it now because of my current level. I also am constantly using trophies too...but this class I just outlined is an effective use of "specialization" in a "hybrid" world. Completely lock the enemy out of ground and air while maintaining a class that has CQC superiority. A dude who sets up a sentry with two trophies isn't even safe from this class. Black hat the two trophies. EMP the sentry. Many many free points. Stinger nomnomnoms two UAVs a life. More free points. Scavenger keeps you fresh allowing you to get your scorestreaks without even needing more than one kill. 1 scavenger bag = 1 black hat + 1 emp + 1 stinger shot = 3 more guaranteed scoring events. That...is alot.
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Post by blackbarney on Nov 26, 2012 15:27:04 GMT -5
Dumien, why Flak Jacket? I like your class tho. I'm anxious to see if GamingUpgrade`s upcoming XP guide to Black Ops 2 will recommend something like this or no.
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moses
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Post by moses on Nov 26, 2012 15:44:23 GMT -5
I think this game is relatively less skillful than other games. By that, I mean the things one can do to further the skill gap are more limited.
- Drop shotting sucks. Not only does it take slightly longer to go down, it actually gives your bullets hip-fire spread during your descent, ADS be damned. - Lots of corners in this game. Turning corners = lag advantage = more chances for either side to have an advantage if you're mobile. - Sound whoring sucks. Situational awareness lets you manipulate other players and secure your play style, aggressive or passive, and without it, it's more guesswork. - Spawn system promotes randomness. Lots of getting shot in the back. - Betties and Shock Charges are nigh-unavoidable unless you see them beforehand or have a relevant perk. - Aim assist on consoles SEEMS stronger than ever, though I have no proof to back this up. Stronger aim assist means less advantage to those with good accuracy. - Quick Draw is actually stronger than Stopping Power ever was in a lot of cases. The players who take advantage of this are killing opponents too quickly for response, leading to more unavoidable deaths. It's simple, more power and less recoil makes fights less about FPS skills and more about CoD specific stuff. - Lots of grouped battles due to the map design. It's hard to play aggressively when the maps are designed to funnel both teams into one area, and killing one opponent will often get you killed by the two behind him. Compared to MW2 and earlier, I find it's hard to get things going when I have the advantage if I'm alone.
Regardless of these things, I think this game is great (if I sounded negative, I don't mean to be). It's possible to do well in this game in any style, though I will admit sometimes I feel I can't get anything going, mainly due to map design.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Nov 26, 2012 15:49:06 GMT -5
1) Weapon has significant recoil. So gun skill is more important; Recoil is random and hardly controllable, maybe if you get down to 200rpm, but TTK drops badly then. BO2 is noob-friendly skilles hipfire spray & pray in CQC that prevails, guys with better connection win, laggy ones lose as hell. That is the story behind the scene. Real gun skill: semi auto guns that require aiming shot after shot, where recoil is irrelevant as gun recenters fast enough to have a chance to kill (let's forget BO1 doo-dooty semi auto AR whatever the name of it was) Convert ALL guns to semi auto and I'll agree that skill-requirements grew. Do not create an excuse / rationalize that BO2 requires more skill as you have lower performance, it is not a skill-indicator. I suppose that a lot of 2+ kdr guys are 2- now, while A LOT of noobs, that were 0.5 are 0.6 now. That benign increase of kdr of the masses cost stars a lot of kdr. Masses paid $1 billion for the game, stars paid $1 million. If half of the masses resigns it is a drama, if all stars go to hell - noone will cry. One high kdr player can piss off 100 newbs per hour, who needs that?
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Post by illram on Nov 26, 2012 15:55:01 GMT -5
Spawning is no different in this game than any other. No significant difference at all. If it feels like it's more random it's because you don't know the maps yet!
We were all saying the exact same thing when MW3 came out... and BO1, and MW2...
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 16:00:41 GMT -5
I think this game is relatively less skillful than other games. By that, I mean the things one can do to further the skill gap are more limited. - Drop shotting sucks. Not only does it take slightly longer to go down, it actually gives your bullets hip-fire spread during your descent, ADS be gosh darn golly gee whized. - Lots of corners in this game. Turning corners = lag advantage = more chances for either side to have an advantage if you're mobile. - Sound whoring sucks. Situational awareness lets you manipulate other players and secure your play style, aggressive or passive, and without it, it's more guesswork. - Spawn system promotes randomness. Lots of getting shot in the back. - Betties and Shock Charges are nigh-unavoidable unless you see them beforehand or have a relevant perk. - Aim assist on consoles SEEMS stronger than ever, though I have no proof to back this up. Stronger aim assist means less advantage to those with good accuracy. - Quick Draw is actually stronger than Stopping Power ever was in a lot of cases. The players who take advantage of this are killing opponents too quickly for response, leading to more unavoidable deaths. It's simple, more power and less recoil makes fights less about FPS skills and more about CoD specific stuff. - Lots of grouped battles due to the map design. It's hard to play aggressively when the maps are designed to funnel both teams into one area, and killing one opponent will often get you killed by the two behind him. Compared to MW2 and earlier, I find it's hard to get things going when I have the advantage if I'm alone. Regardless of these things, I think this game is great (if I sounded negative, I don't mean to be). It's possible to do well in this game in any style, though I will admit sometimes I feel I can't get anything going, mainly due to map design. Most of these are great points, but I am not sure they make the game less skill-based. Drop shotting: let's face it, this is another "cheap tactic" based on my definition :-) , i.e.: I can kill more skilled player by just doing this. (BTW, I am adding panic k nifing to my list of cheap tactics as well. Corners: (first of all I am not sure that this game has more corners than the others, but let's say it does). I would argue that knowing how to win a gun fight when turning a corner is a non-trivial skill, a combination of gun skills, map knowledge and situational awareness. Spawn: totally agree that the spawn system has significant issues. No arguments here. Betties & shock charges: they are nasty if you don't have the right counter. But Engineer and/or Flak Jacket+Tac Mask can give you peace of mind. Players with better skills can afford to have them at the expense of less stealth perks and/or less weapon attachments. Aim Assist: certainly not helping me. See my "accuracy" thread for more details. QD: in general the attachment space is very crowded. Only good players can get the most out of them, including QD. Map design & 1 v n battles: the jury is still out on BO2 map design but yes, it is very hard for a player to win 1 vs. n battles, I would argue this widens the skill gap though.
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moses
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Post by moses on Nov 26, 2012 16:03:11 GMT -5
Spawning is no different in this game than any other. No significant difference at all. If it feels like it's more random it's because you don't know the maps yet! We were all saying the exact same thing when MW3 came out... and BO1, and MW2... It's the small maps. When maps are small, and there aren't back areas away from the action, you've got a lot of close spawns. The beauty of MW2's spawns were that there was a lot of dead space where you could spawn away from any lines of sights. Sure, there was still spawn trapping in that game, but you had options except on the worst of maps - like Afghan's spawn below the big bunker; move and you're dead. In Hijacked or Plaza, you spawn in the open, in plain view of your opponent if they're in your spawn.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 16:06:34 GMT -5
Spawning is no different in this game than any other. No significant difference at all. If it feels like it's more random it's because you don't know the maps yet! We were all saying the exact same thing when MW3 came out... and BO1, and MW2... It's the small maps. When maps are small, and there aren't back areas away from the action, you've got a lot of close spawns. The beauty of MW2's spawns were that there was a lot of dead space where you could spawn away from any lines of sights. Sure, there was still spawn trapping in that game, but you had options except on the worst of maps - like Afghan's spawn below the big bunker; move and you're dead. In Hijacked or Plaza, you spawn in the open, in plain view of your opponent if they're in your spawn. Second this. Yesterday I had a game that I got spawn killed 3 times on Hijacked. In all cases I was spawned at the very end of the boat, and then immediately killed by the enemy who stood on the platform facing aft.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 26, 2012 16:10:32 GMT -5
Real gun skill: semi auto guns that require aiming shot after shot, where recoil is irrelevant as gun recenters fast (let's forget BO1 doo-dooty semi auto AR whatever the name of it was) Do not create an excuse / rationalize that BO2 requires more skill as you have lower performance, it is not a skill-indicator. I suppose that a lot of 2+ kdr guys are 2- now, while A LOT of noobs, that were 0.5 are 0.6 now. That benign increase of kdr of the masses cost stars a lot of kdr. Masses paid $1 billion for the game, stars paid $1 million. Whoooo, let's cool our jets there a bit bro. There's nothing 'star' related bout having a 2.0+ KD ratio. In fact, quite a many of those so called high KD 'superstars' are basically just scrubs who learned long ago that one could join Dom/KC lobbies, not do crap to help the team, just circle the perimeter, and get a good KD ratio. That hardly makes these players good. They're scrubs. They suck. They couldn't spell out win if i spotted them a W and a "I"
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 26, 2012 16:15:49 GMT -5
It's the small maps. When maps are small, and there aren't back areas away from the action, you've got a lot of close spawns. The beauty of MW2's spawns were that there was a lot of dead space where you could spawn away from any lines of sights. Sure, there was still spawn trapping in that game, but you had options except on the worst of maps - like Afghan's spawn below the big bunker; move and you're dead. In Hijacked or Plaza, you spawn in the open, in plain view of your opponent if they're in your spawn. Second this. Yesterday I had a game that I got spawn killed 3 times on Hijacked. In all cases I was spawned at the very end of the boat, and then immediately killed by the enemy who stood on the platform facing aft. Disagree. At least for Domination. Hijacked is not the typical BO2 map. It's very unique. Most of BO2's maps are employing a hourglass shape, featuring long 'tails', which makes for a ton of difficulty in doing the things you guys are claiming...bad spawns and trapping. So far, the maps have been fairly resistant to traps, spawn logic has been very consistent, and anything, some of the maps openly encourage teams to triple cap (see Overflow) So in that respect, if you liked MW2 and are consistent, you should love BO2. BO2 is even better. It reminds me of some old WaW maps like Seelow.
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