mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 11, 2011 12:19:49 GMT -5
I'm sure this is OLD news, but I don't recall seeing it explicitly mentioned anywhere so I thought I'd pipe up about it just to put it on record.
Basically here's the gist. We already know that the reticule bloom represents a weapon's current accuracy visually and that it is apparently a literal representation rather than purely relative. (In other words shots fired fall within the bloom it-self on screen. The size of the bloom thus literally represents the fire cone... as near as we know... bugs and/or glitches aside.)
Well I noticed that weapons with scopes (Mag Pistol, DMR, Needle Rifle, and Sniper Rifle specifically) do not alter the reticule when you zoom in. This seems to suggest that either the reticule no longer literally represents the bullet fire cone whenever you zoom in or that the cone actually shrinks making the weapon more accurate in absolute terms, though remaining the same in terms relative to your view.
So I tested it. Sure as shit, zooming in with a scoped weapon actually makes that weapon more accurate. This includes the sniper rifle. (Which, contrary to possible misconceptions is NOT perfectly accurate. It just has a very small fire cone. It actually becomes quite a bit more accurate at the highest zoom, even so.)
This also means that weapons with greater zoom achieve greater accuracy bonuses. So the DMR gets a bigger accuracy bonus for zooming in than the Needle Rifle, for example. (In fact the DMR zoomed in and fired full speed was accurate enough to pretty much match a paced DMR fired without zoom, though I did not do enough testing to really compare the two thoroughly. It just looked about the same to me.)
I attempted to see if the effect could also be utilized for the first shot on weapons that do not have a scope and thus dump you back out of zoom when you fire, but I could see no observable change in accuracy for these weapons in my limited testing.
It's good to know, though, and I have subsequently improved my gameplay by using zoom to increase accuracy for headshots in situations I previously wouldn't bother since I didn't need the zoom it-self for some targets. This is particularly helpful with the magnum pistol which is just as powerful, but considerably less accurate than the DMR.
Of course online this may be less helpful than in the campaign where it is usually easier to use cover to avoid taking damage and thus getting dumped back out to normal zoom.
Anyway, once again sorry if it's really old news to everybody.
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Post by chip sandwich on Feb 11, 2011 12:45:53 GMT -5
It still gives a reminder of that variable that went unused in the DMR vs NR thread. I personally have no preference for MP, but for single player or firefight I use the DMR primarily because I always have the Tough Luck skull on, and it's a pain in the ass to kill Elites with the needle rifle when they ALWAYS evade after a needle shot, plus if it's a mythic round they can take more NR than DMR shots to the shield as well. Oh well, if it's also catch time, it stops them from pitching grenades at you or shooting you.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 11, 2011 15:06:43 GMT -5
Yeah I think the conclusion was that the NR could own at closer ranges but the DMR performed much better at longer range due to less blooming per shot.
I've personally found the DMR to be more accurate both unzoomed and far more accurate zoomed and since I'm heavy into headshots I really gravitate towards it now. I also really hate all the dodging around with the NR too. I hadn't really thought about that in terms of DMR vs NR, but it's a good point. NR could be useful for a distraction, though. I've often enjoyed making grunts and jackals dive only to get two more needles in their butts while they are getting up. Elites of course, are far more graceful. heh
Where the NR does seem to work better for me is really only against unshielded opponents when headshots are difficult to make, especially with mythic turned on where it takes a lot of DMR shots to kill if you don't get the headshots. NR super-combines are still pretty effective, though.
Usually I seem to only find one or two NR, though. And that just doesn't net a whole lot of ammo for it. So I'm often leaving them behind just because of that. Though I'm kinda thankful there aren't tooooo many more floating about in Covenant hands. heh Though I rather enjoy counter sniping skirmishers. Unlike the grunts they don't get helmet upgrades with Thunderstorm. heh Still I will often keep my pistol instead of swapping to a NR just because of ammo alone. (There seems to be quite a few pistols laying about in various locations, although for some reason you usually can't just take ammo from them the way you can nearly every other weapon. I have several times had to swap a pistol I only had half ammo for with a random weapon so that I could pick up another pistol that had a full supply of ammo included. I used to think they were just empty. heh)
I too have noticed the DMR's better damage vs shields with Mythic on while setting up some firefight games. Although I think with Tilt turned on the reverse might become true. (But I haven't tested it. It just seems like needles perform between bullets and plasma vs shields when Tilt is applied.)
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Feb 11, 2011 16:08:50 GMT -5
Mannon, I think you have that backwards. The NR has less bloom and has been proven to be more consistent at long range.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 12, 2011 5:58:48 GMT -5
Really? Interesting... and despite the lesser zoom... Hmm... I'll have to compare them more directly sometime.
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Post by dweeeeb on Feb 20, 2011 1:03:00 GMT -5
G'day guys, new to the reach boards - didnt know it existed! (been on BC2 for a while) Ive read a fair bit of the various stuff on the bloom on this board - though i must admit not all of it!!! Yes the bullets NEVER go outside the solid immovable reticule. Even when the bloom goes outside it. So Zooming increases accuracy greatly!! Therefore below is the spammers guide!
Spamming to success: Rule 1: Place top of solid circle on top of enemies head Rule 2: Choose correct zoom: A: Enemies feet must be at or below bottom of solid circle B: Use no scope if “A” can be achieved (quicker, and not effected by enemy fire) Rule 3: SPAM until shields drop Rule 4: Aim centre of reticule to centre of head, zoom for best results. NOTE: The time taken to reposition for HS is enough for accurate shot, and you would have dropped their shields fast enough to delay if you wish.
Hope this makes sense and is useful to someone!
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 20, 2011 15:53:38 GMT -5
I think that probability of a shot hitting is flat within the cone of fire (bloom). If so then there's really no need to go from rule 1 to 4 as staying in rule 1 position allows an equal chance to hit the head, but an increased chance to hit the body.
As for A and B, that can be a tricky one. There are disadvantages to scoping in. The delay it takes to scope in is pretty short, as long as you only have to do it once or twice, though. But if you are taking hits between each shot or even before each shot then it's probably not worth doing. To minimize that problem one should aim first, zoom in, adjust aim if necessary, and fire as quickly as possible. This gives the minimum time for you to be kicked out of zoom before your first shot, and hopefully you will throw your opponent out of zoom and have the advantage. Although, if your opponent is already zoomed in on your position and has good reaction times it may be better to simply fire at them without zoom until you can get at least one hit to knock them out of it. But that's a tactical consideration.
I will note that unless your bloom reticule falls completely within the target's silhouette then zooming in will give you more accuracy. Keep in mind that this is on a per shot basis so even if your first shot doesn't benefit from zoom the 3rd or 4th probably will.
This is important because at any range where you have to pace your shots greater base accuracy = same accuracy with a faster ROF.
So for me there's 4 main situations where I wouldn't zoom in.
1. So close it wouldn't matter. (This is dependent on the weapon's minimum fire cone, and bloom. If the weapon cannot be spammed at max ROF with 100% hits then zooming in regardless of zoom level, would help. More accurate weapons don't need to scope in out to greater ranges.)
2. Fast moving target at close enough range to be difficult to track zoomed in. (Weapons with lesser scopes such as the Mag Pistol are usable scoped in at closer ranges.)
3. Will just get hit and dropped out of zoom. (Note: This is a bad situation as taking hits on purpose is a bad idea. Consider a different tactic before charing into the line of fire unless you're pretty sure you can win and will have time to recover after. If their teammates will just kill you afterward anyway then all you've done is trade a kill for a kill.)
4. Need to react absolutely ASAP. (This usually applies to popping out of cover to attack someone who is already watching my position or when surprised in CQC. Although I may very well prezoom before coming out of cover if I know where they are. If there's any question then I generally would rather have a higher turn speed for targeting them as quickly as possible.)
*5. Gun doesn't have a scope. ;p (Actually I have found it sometimes useful to zoom in and target enemies even on weapons that don't have scopes and will drop back out to normal zoom. This really only works when I've marked the reticule position with a dry erase marker because the reticule even when zoomed in is not the center of the screen, and on weapons that don't have scopes this position is not marked by the futuristic camera/binocular overlay thing. This doesn't really make you any more accurate, but it can help you refine your aim more quickly than doing so without zooming in. This would really be more useful in campaign than online, though. As most of the weapons in question aren't that effective at long range, but in the campaign you can use them in short bursts on enemies at long ranges to pick them off or deplete their shields. The travel time of plasma rounds complicates this, however. It is entirely possible to essentially snipe with the AR, though. It's just not very efficient since you can only fire in about 3 round bursts and it has quite low damage. Still you can conserve your other ammo sometimes by using up an AR in this way.)
Generally since finding out that weapons are more accurate when zoomed in I've switched my decision making process. Now it is my default choice to zoom in when I attack and I only don't use the scope when I decide it is not to my advantage.
I wish I could customize the control mapping, though. I think I'd probably put zoom on the left trigger. After playing Gears of Ware, CoD4, CoD:W@W, MW2, and Borderlands I've gotten really used to using that to zoom in and even though it's a toggle in Halo I still think I'd find it more intuitive to use and a lot better than mashing the stick.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 20, 2011 17:07:13 GMT -5
Yes the bullets NEVER go outside the solid immovable reticule. Even when the bloom goes outside it. In testing this appears to be true for the DMR, but not the NR or the Mag Pistol. Shots for both fall outside the static reticule but within the bloom reticule at max ROF. For the DMR, however, shots only seem to fall outside the static reticule by a small amount above or below, probably due to the viewkick to use a CoD term. Even with bottomless clip I was unable to get any shots far enough outside the static circle that they weren't at least touching it. The NR and MP on the other hand obviously threw shots outside their static reticules and by too great a range to be explained by the viewkick.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 20, 2011 22:47:33 GMT -5
Been playing a bit more...
It's been shown by using the bottomless clip setting that the sniper rifle actually can fire just before the bloom has reset completely, though it is a very near thing.
Doing some of my own testing I was able to see that firing it at maximum ROF, (pulling the trigger before it can actually fire, waiting for the shot, pulling trigger again before it can fire) can result in some of the shots going just a tad off target even in just 4 shots. Though, not by a huge degree, and zooming in would greatly reduce the inaccuracy. But it may be worth noting anytime not using the zoom on distant targets the 3rd and 4th shot could be a bit off.
Using bottomless clip and firing it constantly at maximum ROF I was able to get it to bloom out quite a bit more and max out it's bloom. However, if I crouched while firing I was unable to see any significant widening of bloom. It seems that while crouching the bloom on the sniper rifle will reset fully or very very close to it. More testing should be able to determine with a greater degree of accuracy if it completely negates bloom or not.
I had wondered about the exact effects of crouching after reading the in game tip about it, so it was interesting to see it in action in such a tangible way. Anyway...
I'm thinking Halo:Reach could actually use a good bit more testing to nail things down. Though I'm sure there are other places with lots of technical details on it already. I'll have to do more research. No need to reinvent the wheel...
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Post by dweeeeb on Feb 21, 2011 4:17:36 GMT -5
Yea mannon, I suggested to NOT scope in if A is achievable. It basically covers up to midrange, as long as the solid reticule is not bigger than the enemy spam away. 95% of shots will hit (hence the delay and mentioned problems of scoping not neccessary). All with the ease of no scope, and spam I find re-aligning for the head, introduces a very slight delay, enough to get an almost dead accurate HS, at this point I dont want to get a body shot so a forced delay pays off. Plus is refocuses my concentration on getting the HS. I hope im not dubbling up on what you have said above - just got off night shift o.O
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