|
Post by saddaminsane on Feb 23, 2011 16:35:28 GMT -5
If the pellets didn't disappear in midair then it would be very hard to tell how far your affective range is, especially without den's help. If they made the shotguns like the MW2 underbarrel it would be OP in HC ( unless the pellets do only about 10 damage each ) Now imagine if you had the MW2 spas in , say, firing range....balanced?
The only way i see possible to balance the shotguns is to make some have VERY SMALL spread (like mw2 1887/spaz) and weak pellets, some very strong(or fast) but large spread (ranger/aa12) i would also love a more advanced hit detection on par with the sniper body multipliers i used to play an FPS developed in 2007 where they had head shot multiplier for the shotguns, i don't see why COD can't handle that
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on Feb 23, 2011 21:59:33 GMT -5
I think they don't do headshot multipliers due to the high spread low pellets nature of them. It would make shotguns even more inconsistent than they already are because even aiming at the head you'd have to rely on luck to get headshots. It would work well with more choke, but with such a large spread... *shrugs*
I think I like Den's ideas on making the shotguns both more realistic and more usable. (Obviously realism is not a huge priority in this type of game, nor should it be. However when you can use realism to build a system that is fun then it also gains the advantage of being intuitive. The way shotguns work in CoD now makes no damn sense and players have to learn the artificialities of it.)
As for learning the effective range if the pellets kept going... I can see the noobs not picking it up as fast, but really how hard is it to notice when you shoot a guy and he dies vs he just flinches? I don't think it's really that big a deal. Nobody complains about it in the L4D games and the pellets don't just vanish in those. In fact I believe all the L4D weapons are almost strait ports of CS:S weapons.
As for hardcore, there's no need to make the shotguns like the MW2 masterkey. It had a very shallow damage slope all the way down to 1 before finally dropping off. Very odd damage graph for any gun, not just a shotgun. I'd actually rather see the shotgun graphs stay basically the same only instead of simply ending with no damage at the min damage they'd go flat like SMG's, ect. They would all just do 10 damage per pellet out to infinite range, but the spray would pretty much insure nothing but rare lucky hits outside effective range. That might still get some long range lucky HC kills, but hell you have fully automatics that kill in one shot at infinite range in HC, so it's not unjustified. If anything it'd probably just encourage noobs to try to shotgun snipe and their target would just calmly turn around and shot them in all but 1% of those confrontations. ;p
Then again, if shotguns were changed, I'm not saying to just make this one change and leave it. They should be retested and rebalanced if not redone from scratch. But that's just my opinion.
Also get rid of the stupid changing of the spread due to ADS or other factors... It makes absolutely no sense that the spread of a shotgun should be affected by anything short of physically altering the weapon it-self. I understand wanting to make it sometimes more or less accurate, but this is entirely counterintuitive and nobody but the CoD grognards are going to realize how it works.
|
|
ninja
True Bro
KROGASM!!!
Posts: 151
|
Post by ninja on Feb 24, 2011 7:55:21 GMT -5
I have a feeling that's more to represent a rough area for where pellets will go. Still, it's stupid.
What would a system with Hipfire Sway work like? If the hipfire area were to rotate on screen to give a bit of random chance that way.
Reduce Spread Increase Sway
?
|
|
n1gh7
True Bro
Black Market Dealer
Posts: 11,718
|
Post by n1gh7 on Feb 24, 2011 12:38:41 GMT -5
The reason that COD doesn't have headshot multipliers is because of how the engine works. For one the game's engine is ancient. Second, when a single hitscan hits a person, and it goes through multiple bodyparts it takes the highest multiplier and uses that to calculate damage. Because there are multiple pellets if only one hit the head it would make all of them do headshot damage, not just the one pellet that hit the head.
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on Feb 24, 2011 12:58:25 GMT -5
Hah now that would be an interesting and random as hell glitch! Talk about making shotguns inconsistent, that would be crazy.
|
|
kalar
True Bro
Attack! Attack! Attack!
Posts: 451
|
Post by kalar on Feb 25, 2011 6:35:59 GMT -5
The reason that COD doesn't have headshot multipliers is because of how the engine works. For one the game's engine is ancient. Second, when a single hitscan hits a person, and it goes through multiple bodyparts it takes the highest multiplier and uses that to calculate damage. Because there are multiple pellets if only one hit the head it would make all of them do headshot damage, not just the one pellet that hit the head. That's an original explanation I haven't heard before. And if it weren't on these boards, I wouldn't even give it a second chance. But here, I'm wondering truly if it's.. well, true.
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on Feb 26, 2011 4:53:20 GMT -5
Could be. N1gh7's a pretty good guy and not prone to talking out his ass... like most people on youtube...
|
|
n1gh7
True Bro
Black Market Dealer
Posts: 11,718
|
Post by n1gh7 on Feb 26, 2011 6:10:55 GMT -5
I should put a disclaimer on that, I am speculating on the second part of my second reason.
My first reason, the IW engine is ancient is definitely true. The source code of the Quake 3 engine, id Tech 3, was released August 19, 2005. Definitely older than the 2007 game that saddaminsane is talking about.
On my second reason, proving that a single hitscan will take the highest multiplier for each player out of all of the body parts it hits is easy. Have someone prone in front of you. Prone behind them with a sniper or whatever. Shoot through their body and try to hit their head. Or, do a thought experiment. How many times in MW2 and COD4 did you shoot someone sprinting and you hit them through the side to kill them? How often do you think you probably went through their arm to get to their torso?
This was the only part I wasn't 100% sure about. I can't find the exact post/words, but the confirmation to the second part of the second reason was from Den about how Shotguns couldn't do damage against cars normally because of their multi-hitscan nature. I'll keep looking tomorrow. Either way, if you have COD4 for PC and the free mod tools you can test this by giving a shotgun constant, undroppable damage and a certain number of pellets and turn on some debugging stuff or just look at the damage logs and shoot someone or something. I'm tried.
|
|
|
Post by Contrary on Feb 26, 2011 12:33:29 GMT -5
when a single hitscan hits a person, and it goes through multiple bodyparts it takes the highest multiplier and uses that to calculate damage. then how would you account for snipers being cockblocked by stray arms?
|
|
n1gh7
True Bro
Black Market Dealer
Posts: 11,718
|
Post by n1gh7 on Feb 26, 2011 15:09:46 GMT -5
They aren't.
|
|
|
Post by duckcall00 on Feb 26, 2011 15:30:40 GMT -5
How does shotgun spread work? Is it more like Option #1 or #2?
|
|
|
Post by Contrary on Feb 26, 2011 15:42:07 GMT -5
|
|
n1gh7
True Bro
Black Market Dealer
Posts: 11,718
|
Post by n1gh7 on Feb 26, 2011 16:16:16 GMT -5
option 1.
|
|
battleaxerx
True Bro
"You can't take the sky from me."
Posts: 773
|
Post by battleaxerx on Feb 26, 2011 16:18:31 GMT -5
I think it's option 1... but I think option 2 would be good.
Just go up to a wall and shoot, if the group is much tighter than your pips then it's option 1... I think it should be a cone or cylinder that shoots, and not pellets, the pellets are good just as a visual, but I don't think the game should really do it by pellets... But I don't know...
|
|
Den
He's That Guy
Posts: 4,294,967,295
|
Post by Den on Feb 26, 2011 16:55:25 GMT -5
Option C! But more like this. Both weapon and ammo can make a lot of difference, but most long shotguns result in about a human-sized grouping up to about 20 meters. The shot pellets spin off in all directions after the force behind them fade.
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on Feb 26, 2011 16:57:53 GMT -5
Option 2 wouldn't be "realistic" or balanced, because it wouldn't actually spread away with range. In fact I don't think I'd call it a "spread" if it doesn't.
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on Feb 26, 2011 17:13:56 GMT -5
lol NICE! Den FTW.
|
|
|
Post by themccannman on Feb 27, 2011 0:25:43 GMT -5
thia thread has become much mroe intersting lately. I'm sure n1gh7 is correct but i definetely feel like i've been cockblocked by people flailing arms while tossing grenades or switching weapons, although thats just most likely just bad hit detection. I really like dens proposal for how shotgun spread should work but i think that the calculations for the random flying pellets after 20 units would overwhelm the physics engine. I think the best way that shotguns could be made is to have a solid cone like battleaxerx suggested and have damage calculated by the percentage of the cone that covers the target (e.g. target covers 70% of the cone at max damage range the target takes 70% of max damage) i think that could work quite well
|
|
Den
He's That Guy
Posts: 4,294,967,295
|
Post by Den on Feb 27, 2011 0:46:21 GMT -5
That's the thing. The 600 range is too short, even for the small Black Ops maps.
There's no need to change the weapon from a hitscan to some silly projectile that uses Destabalization like the RPG-7. Just boost the max range.
A Max Damage range of 1000 or 1200 is more reasonable (and even "realistic" if you care about that sort of thing). Given the wide hip spread and 10 damage, a boost like that probably wouldn't be all that big of a benefit (at least for the Olympia and Stakeout) - just a minor harassment at longer ranges.
Something like 800 for the HS10 and SPAS, 1000 for the Olympia and 1200 for the Stakeout.
|
|
|
Post by themccannman on Feb 27, 2011 1:30:26 GMT -5
agreed max range needs to be increased, it jsut think the the solid cone projectile would get rid of the inconsistency with shotguns.
|
|