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Post by reganmil on Nov 17, 2011 15:45:57 GMT -5
That's really interesting, actually. I hadn't looked closely enough to realize that they had the exact same recoil pattern and center speed. I really don't have a good answer for that one. That being said, I don't think that's it's necessarily statistically inferior. ADS speed means a lot unless you're using Stalker (even with Quickdraw, the .025s faster ADS puts the FAD's close-range TTK almost exactly tied with the M4). And higher RoF means you're punished less when one or two of your shots don't land. That's the problem with all these theoretical charts—yea, the MK14 has incredible TTK at all ranges, and if you've got impeccable aim and not too much lag you're going to dominate with it. But once you start missing shots you have to add firetimes to your TTK, and the high RoF guns start to dominate overwhelmingly. It's got those nice 40 round mags, too, which help compensate for it's higher RoF. Thanks, and I totally agree with you. Saw your earlier post about adding ADS to TTK which honestly hadn't crossed my mind before. Actually, it drastically balances out the AR's to within ~3 ms TTk. Being a past quick-scoper I prefer to ADS just prior to kill so a perk I have largely neglected, QD, is now extremely appealing. I guess I have always just taken that for granted being an ardent SoH user.
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Post by chizbro on Nov 17, 2011 16:42:04 GMT -5
I think those sniper stats are wrong. I have used the silenced AS50 and it kills to the chest (either that or the lag is making me head shot ...a lot!) Also I think it has faster ADS, either that or the reduced zoom is making me feel like it does.
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 18, 2011 20:03:39 GMT -5
this needs to be on the front page. I don't want to go to page 2 to not see the visual chart..
Other than that, I wish the PM9 got a buff, like its reload time equaling to that of the uzi from previous games (2.3 seconds?)
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Post by Indy_Bones on Nov 20, 2011 4:34:58 GMT -5
I think it's funny that the 1st gun you get (M4) is statistically better than the last (FAD) in almost every category. I mean, I guess it's not all that odd (and consistent w/ past COD titles), but there's been alot of rave about the FAD beast and it has incredible recoil. Yea, the multiplier & (.05 sec) ADS boost is nice but you can see why it's sorely needed to compete. the recoil stats are identical across the board, with M4 having the better dmg and effective range. I think you've mis-interpreted the data here slightly. In regards to TTK, the only relevant points are the actual times on offer per bullet needed. The M4 does have the advantage slightly up to it's 4 bullet range, but after that the FAD is superior. So any enemy contact at over approx 1050, you'd be better with the FAD than the M4 for TTK. Recoil is almost identical, although with reload/rd time the M4 clearly has the edge here However the FAD does get the better ads time which if you do factor this in would arguably be lowering it's relative TTK to the M4 making it much more equal at closer range whilst still maintaining it's long range superiority. It also has the excellent HS multiplier which again can lower the TTK significantly as even at max range, you can still be doing over 40 dmg with a single shot. The FAD also boasts a higher clip size than the M4, especially with E-Mags giving it the highest ammo capacity in the AR category. So based on a more in-depth look here, I'd say that the M4 ISN'T statistically better everywhere than the FAD - as long as you correctly interpret the data on show.
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Post by [N7] SakuyaFM on Nov 20, 2011 21:29:52 GMT -5
You switched the AA-12 and SPAS-12 around.
The SPAS is a LV8 unlock.
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Post by josefrees on Nov 20, 2011 23:09:32 GMT -5
What is close and long range again? Like what is the actual distance? Are the same for class or what?
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niteshadex
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Post by niteshadex on Nov 21, 2011 0:04:04 GMT -5
What is close and long range again? Like what is the actual distance? Are the same for class or what? It varies. The game uses an arbitrary unit of measurement, Den's CoD4 blog page some rough measurements. Actually I think we established measurement lengths in MW2 and BO using Highrise and Nuketown respectively. Anyways, to answer the question, generally the ranges are similar by category. In previous cods, LMG damage did not drop off at range (except the M60), As for MW3, until someone unencrypts the actual data, we have no hard numbers to go off for range yet, unless the strategy guides state it and are accurate.
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Post by reganmil on Nov 21, 2011 17:29:14 GMT -5
I think you've mis-interpreted the data here slightly. In regards to TTK, the only relevant points are the actual times on offer per bullet needed. The M4 does have the advantage slightly up to it's 4 bullet range, but after that the FAD is superior. So any enemy contact at over approx 1050, you'd be better with the FAD than the M4 for TTK. Recoil is almost identical, although with reload/rd time the M4 clearly has the edge here However the FAD does get the better ads time which if you do factor this in would arguably be lowering it's relative TTK to the M4 making it much more equal at closer range whilst still maintaining it's long range superiority. It also has the excellent HS multiplier which again can lower the TTK significantly as even at max range, you can still be doing over 40 dmg with a single shot. The FAD also boasts a higher clip size than the M4, especially with E-Mags giving it the highest ammo capacity in the AR category. So based on a more in-depth look here, I'd say that the M4 ISN'T statistically better everywhere than the FAD - as long as you correctly interpret the data on show. Well said. You have elucidated and categorized the strengths of the FAD quite nicely. However, the point I was really trying to make ─which also favors the FAD─ was that statistically speaking it *should* be less accurate. But it's not. Considering both guns share identical recoil characteristics, and taking into account the disparity in ROF, one would expect the recoil plots to favor the M4 (slower ROF + recentering effect has been touched on extensively). To the contrary, the FAD shows an equal to or better spray pattern, and as I noted in the previous post it just *feels* more stable to me. One could argue the higher ROF/recoil has consummated an ideal 'balance', as (Mannon) elaborated on here: denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=general&thread=3256&post=53137Personally, I think there's something off about, or granted to, the FAD to balance the higher ROF. Seems like there is just something wrong with holding down the trigger on a 40 round clip @ 1000 RPM ─you can't get away with it on any other weapon (omit MP7 spesealsauce). All this being considered, it makes my previous argument completely invalid. The M4 would only best the FAD within 1050 range which is effectively cancelled by FAD's quicker ADS. Since FAD recoil is the same (or better) it is statistically superior in all engagement categories (reload times, etc, aside). But this is the real kicker (no pun intended): how does the FAD plots match or best the M4 with over 25% higher ROF and identical recoil statistics?
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ZaTaisho
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【 W A R S T R E A K S 】
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Post by ZaTaisho on Nov 22, 2011 1:04:37 GMT -5
If possible, I am wondering if they would add the flinch dealt with each weapon. It could help alot to know what weapon can help players keep other players from keeping an accurate shot on you when you are shoot them.
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Post by mastermarth on Nov 24, 2011 11:03:04 GMT -5
Would it be possible for you to find/add a stat for the 'add to gun' time?
Basically, the time where the ammo is updated and you can sprint, quickly double swap weapons, knife or whatever to cancel the rest of the reload animation.
As shown on these boards, the Akimbo Five-Seven's add to gun time is MUCH smaller, which leads me to wonder what the time is for other guns.
I know in Black Ops I paid attention to the weapons that could shave 1 second or more off of the reload animation.
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Post by zuluzuluzulu on Nov 24, 2011 14:37:30 GMT -5
Would it be possible for you to find/add a stat for the 'add to gun' time? Basically, the time where the ammo is updated and you can sprint, quickly double swap weapons, knife or whatever to cancel the rest of the reload animation. As shown on these boards, the Akimbo Five-Seven's add to gun time is MUCH smaller, which leads me to wonder what the time is for other guns. I know in Black Ops I paid attention to the weapons that could shave 1 second or more off of the reload animation. Here docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmWEaU8N7NeddEprUWFkQi1ZWFU0eGItNGwzZG1oSXc
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Post by mastermarth on Nov 24, 2011 16:01:58 GMT -5
Thanks.
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Post by jar on Nov 24, 2011 20:16:35 GMT -5
Hmm still says the USAS is semi-auto and the 1887 a pump-action. Also how the hell can the 1887 fire 240 RPM or 4 rounds per second ? This list isn't completely up-to-date.
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Post by blancodiablo664 on Nov 25, 2011 17:59:43 GMT -5
i have been reading post after post in hope that i would find out What they measured range change with 800-2000 what?!?! feet? and how big is the hex grid on the maps is it standard or does it change if the maps bigger/smaller?
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Post by blancodiablo664 on Nov 25, 2011 18:01:27 GMT -5
you are my bro, bro.
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Post by jipa on Nov 29, 2011 10:02:57 GMT -5
Beastly thread. Thx.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 29, 2011 13:19:09 GMT -5
I am disappoint that the CM901 is just so mediocre compared to others. I love using it.. I loved obsessing over the charts and stats as much as anyone, but here's the most important thing to remember..... ....these charts are dumb in the end. Especially charts where the author puts in subjective grades for each gun. Assigning values like A, B, C, etc...This is just stupid. Sorry, but it is. Here's the most useful idea to use, in lieu of obsessing over micro detailed charts. Try this one......just use and try each gun yourself. How about that? If you are a serious player and plan on putting in 8, 10, 12 plus days on this game, that's more than enough time to log in 30 games with every gun. Try each out. Get a feel for each one. Some silly chart might say the CM901 'sucks', but if you equip it right, to your liking and feel, it might work wonders for you. Take the above post, where the person gives the Type95 a 'D' grade. Nonsense. I used it for well over 70 games the past week and my KD ratio with it was around 2.21 or so. I loved it. Loved the feel for it. It worked for me. I'm going to now experiment and try other guns this week. And that brings up another point. The purpose of this game is to have fun. Find some fun in doing your own experimentation and trying. Don't just rely on some numbers-obessed stat guy telling you what will or won't work. Having fun finding out what works best FOR YOU.
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niteshadex
True Bro
Xbox GT: The Beastly 117
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Post by niteshadex on Nov 29, 2011 13:39:42 GMT -5
I am disappoint that the CM901 is just so mediocre compared to others. I love using it.. I loved obsessing over the charts and stats as much as anyone, but here's the most important thing to remember..... ....these charts are dumb in the end. Especially charts where the author puts in subjective grades for each gun. Assigning values like A, B, C, etc...This is just stupid. Sorry, but it is. Here's the most useful idea to use, in lieu of obsessing over micro detailed charts. Try this one......just use and try each gun yourself. How about that? If you are a serious player and plan on putting in 8, 10, 12 plus days on this game, that's more than enough time to log in 30 games with every gun. Try each out. Get a feel for each one. Some silly chart might say the CM901 'sucks', but if you equip it right, to your liking and feel, it might work wonders for you. Take the above post, where the person gives the Type95 a 'D' grade. Nonsense. I used it for well over 70 games the past week and my KD ratio with it was around 2.21 or so. I loved it. Loved the feel for it. It worked for me. I'm going to now experiment and try other guns this week. And that brings up another point. The purpose of this game is to have fun. Find some fun in doing your own experimentation and trying. Don't just rely on some numbers-obessed stat guy telling you what will or won't work. Having fun finding out what works best FOR YOU. Thats touching, but ultimately foolish. There is no point using an outclassed or otherwise inferior weapon. Simple as that.
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Post by xtx on Nov 29, 2011 13:39:54 GMT -5
Regular games have too many variables and randomness. You may get lucky with a bad gun and unlucky with a good gun. Your conclusion may then be faulty. The grading is dumb tho.
If you look at the numbers, they clearly show the superiority of the ACR, Type 95, Mk14, P90, and MP7. In-game experience will confirm this. You will do best with these guns on average, even if you have some good games with the CM90-1 as well and like the feel of it (DAT RELOAD).
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 29, 2011 13:40:07 GMT -5
...that's because the guy who graded the guns did not post his criteria for said grading, making the grading completely and utterly subjective.
According to the stats, the Type 95 is one of the, if not the, best guns in the game. The stock CM is outclassed by every other high damage assault rifle. Fortunately, the CM underbarrel is not.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 29, 2011 15:11:50 GMT -5
I loved obsessing over the charts and stats as much as anyone, but here's the most important thing to remember..... ....these charts are dumb in the end. Especially charts where the author puts in subjective grades for each gun. Assigning values like A, B, C, etc...This is just stupid. Sorry, but it is. Here's the most useful idea to use, in lieu of obsessing over micro detailed charts. Try this one......just use and try each gun yourself. How about that? If you are a serious player and plan on putting in 8, 10, 12 plus days on this game, that's more than enough time to log in 30 games with every gun. Try each out. Get a feel for each one. Some silly chart might say the CM901 'sucks', but if you equip it right, to your liking and feel, it might work wonders for you. Take the above post, where the person gives the Type95 a 'D' grade. Nonsense. I used it for well over 70 games the past week and my KD ratio with it was around 2.21 or so. I loved it. Loved the feel for it. It worked for me. I'm going to now experiment and try other guns this week. And that brings up another point. The purpose of this game is to have fun. Find some fun in doing your own experimentation and trying. Don't just rely on some numbers-obessed stat guy telling you what will or won't work. Having fun finding out what works best FOR YOU. Thats touching, but ultimately foolish. There is no point using an outclassed or otherwise inferior weapon. Simple as that. Trolling? No point? Sure there is. How about this one....it's FUN. I'll even give you an example. It's called the Riot Shield. Lb for lb, it's not as good of a setup as other options. I never do well KD wise using it. But every once in a while, it's just freaking fun. It's fun to distract the opponents with it, draw their fire, while your bro nails them from behind (shooting wise, not sexually) And having 'FUN' is the point of this game. Not everything always has to be about spending fifty hours of research on charts, to find the one gun that has a 1.0045% performance advantage, so that you can only use that one all the time.
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Post by mastermarth on Nov 29, 2011 15:25:51 GMT -5
Thats touching, but ultimately foolish. There is no point using an outclassed or otherwise inferior weapon. Simple as that. Trolling? No point? Sure there is. How about this one....it's FUN. I'll even give you an example. It's called the Riot Shield. Lb for lb, it's not as good of a setup as other options. I never do well KD wise using it. But every once in a while, it's just freaking fun. It's fun to distract the opponents with it, draw their fire, while your bro nails them from behind (shooting wise, not sexually) And having 'FUN' is the point of this game. Not everything always has to be about spending fifty hours of research on charts, to find the one gun that has a 1.0045% performance advantage, so that you can only use that one all the time. That's the thing though, these stat sheets are to be done for comparison between guns and to know the stats of every gun. There's always choices to be done though. If someone looks at these stats and sees that the Model is the best Shotgun, they still have to look at and weight in the fact that it's a lever-action Shotgun and not a pump-action, semi-auto or automatic one. Same thing applies for the Riot Shield: obviously you won't do better than an AR, but it there would be 2 versions of the Riot Shield with different speeds, damage, coverage and swap times, some people would want to know those stats. Not every cared in Black Ops that the Enfield had a faster ADS time than the other ARs, and there are a number of people that never really noticed it that much most likely. That, however, doesn't change the fact that the knowledge is useful and deserves to be found.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 29, 2011 15:34:45 GMT -5
That's the thing though, these stat sheets are to be done for comparison between guns and to know the stats of every gun. There's always choices to be done though. If someone looks at these stats and sees that the Model is the best Shotgun, they still have to look at and weight in the fact that it's a lever-action Shotgun and not a pump-action, semi-auto or automatic one. Same thing applies for the Riot Shield: obviously you won't do better than an AR, but it there would be 2 versions of the Riot Shield with different speeds, damage, coverage and swap times, some people would want to know those stats. Not every cared in Black Ops that the Enfield had a faster ADS time than the other ARs, and there are a number of people that never really noticed it that much most likely. That, however, doesn't change the fact that the knowledge is useful and deserves to be found. I'm not arguing the info isn't useful. I even love reading this info, find it great to know and scour around looking through the threads. But my point is simple....even IF you are using it for comparison's sake, comparing AR to AR......people looking at these threads need to know that these charts aren't the end all to everything. A person is BEST served by going and trying these guns out themselves, rather than just listening to what some impersonal chart tells them. Trying out the various guns can be fun. Experiment. Even only if for the simple reason that no two people are ever alike. Some people have great fast twitch finger skills, some don't. One person's 'best gun' might not be another person's best choice. And back to the other point, it's about FUN. I can't even think of how many times in the past, I have just used what people called an 'inferior' gun.....just because I liked how it sounded, or how it played. And if i went 15-10 rather than 19-6....so what, if I had FUN while doing so.
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Post by cashmoves on Nov 29, 2011 15:59:42 GMT -5
what is up with these 'fun police'? as if I need YOU to tell me what my purpose in playing the game is. gtfo. people come here to get stats and info they can't get otherwise. I need your opinions and lectures on fun and subjective gun choice like I need a hairy nutsac hanging from my chin.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 29, 2011 16:06:31 GMT -5
what is up with these 'fun police'? as if I need YOU to tell me what my purpose in playing the game is. gtfo. people come here to get stats and info they can't get otherwise. I need your opinions and lectures on fun and subjective gun choice like I need a hairy nutsac hanging from my chin. Be that as it may, having 'fun' is a valid reason to play the game. It can't be discounted.
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niteshadex
True Bro
Xbox GT: The Beastly 117
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Post by niteshadex on Nov 29, 2011 21:48:37 GMT -5
what is up with these 'fun police'? as if I need YOU to tell me what my purpose in playing the game is. gtfo. people come here to get stats and info they can't get otherwise. I need your opinions and lectures on fun and subjective gun choice like I need a hairy nutsac hanging from my chin. Be that as it may, having 'fun' is a valid reason to play the game. It can't be discounted. This is starting to sound like a religious debate. You can have fun and be uneducated. 99.99% of CoD already does that. You can also have fun knowing the full spectrum of weapon stats and making informed decisions based upon them. Your version of fun, and my version of fun are two different things. I'm going to purposefully run around with a rifle that is inferior to another similar gun. I don't like disadvantaging myself. I will however, avoid weapons that are grotesquely overpowered and/or incredibly overused. In MW3 thats the T95 and akimbo FMGs.
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Post by rainbows on Nov 29, 2011 23:19:29 GMT -5
The thing is, the statistics, for the most part, don't matter at all. All of the guns are close enough that you WILL do better with the gun you are more comfortable using than the best gun in a category. If any one assault rifle was strictly better, in every way, than another, then yes you should never pick the worse one. But none of the assault rifles (or SMGs, LMGs, etc.) are better in every single way, and none of them are so far better that you put yourself at an actual, tangible disadvantage by using a slightly worse one (with possible exception of Type 95 vs. M16, but even then the M16 has a small niche). And none of this has anything to do with that arbitrary thing known as "fun".
Also, KD ratio is completely irrelevant to this. If you went 4.00 with the Scar-L, you would've went 4.01 with the M4A1, assuming you are equally comfortable with both of those. By far the largest factor in KD ratio is the player, as, again, the guns are close enough that it doesn't really matter.
Oh, and this only applies to the differences between guns in the same category. Some categories completely outclass others, and you actually are putting yourself at a noticeable disadvantage by picking a pistol over an MP.
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 30, 2011 4:19:55 GMT -5
I think AS50 OSOKS in the stomach w/out a silencer, but I can absolutely 100% confirm it OSOKs in the chest w/ a silencer.
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Post by jollyballs5000 on Dec 21, 2011 11:27:39 GMT -5
Speaking of the FAD, one thing I noticed is the TTK seems to be wrong, that is if realistic mathematics apply to this game. If the Scar-L fires at 750 RPM and takes .160 seconds to kill with 3 bullets, then shouldn't the FAD's TTK be identical? The Scar-L takes 3 bullets to kill whereas the FAD takes 4, which is a 33% increase. However, the Scar-L's ROF is 750 RPM, and the FAD fires at 1000 RPM, which is also a 33% increase, balancing it out and making them the same. Also, another note: I also believe the ranges on this chart appear to be wrong. For example, I tested the ACR are the Scar-L's range, and the ACR actually had a longer range. Go test it out yourself.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 22, 2011 4:18:37 GMT -5
First bullet doesn't contribute to TTK: TTK is the fire rate multiplied by the bullets needed to kill minus one.
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