arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 16, 2011 23:52:54 GMT -5
Interesting.
Is it really necessary to put kick on G36c then, since its predictable enough as it is?
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neverlast74
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Post by neverlast74 on Nov 17, 2011 2:19:08 GMT -5
was thinking about it - to me - these pictures are pretty accurate just that they do not have sway included. now that is not that much of a problem unless you compare weapons with very little with ones with a lot of sway. this is how I interpret this data. so noone plays the acr without kick - which makes it very good but it takes looong until you get "steady" for your m4. so everyone is says acr>m4 but having the right addon might be more the topic than how good the weapon is.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 17, 2011 2:27:43 GMT -5
Showing the recoil scatter plot at the max firerate at least shows the worst the recoil could possibly be. OK, I'll produce one. Or maybe a range of plots at different fire rates: 4 shots/sec 5/sec 6/sec 7/sec 8/sec max fire rate
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Post by psijaka on Nov 17, 2011 2:41:11 GMT -5
Is "visual kick" in this game? I'm a noob to the COD science, but is the term visual kick refering to how it looks like the gun is kicking, but not exactly how the recoil is acting? For example, seems the Blops AK47 just had an upward recoil from your view, yet the bullets sprayed all over. So if I'm understanding all this correctly (probably not lol), I'm wondering if there's guns that look like they are recoiling different than they actually are. Viewkick is the actual velocity applied to the gun when it is fires, and centerspeed is a deceleration applied to this to return it to the starting point. If the centerspeed can return the gun to it's starting point before the next shot is fired, then all you will see is the gun bounce upwards (and/or left/right) and return to your aim point; this is good, as your next shot will be on target (discounting sway, that is). If the viewkick is so large that the centerspeed cannot return it to it's start point before the next round is fired, then your next shot will not be on target; bad. This is represented by one of the dots on my scatter plots. If the gun has not recovered, the viewkick from the next round may take it further off target; a cumulative effect. Take a look at the Skorpion plot; you can clearly see the distinction between the first few rounds as the recoil cumulatively pulls the gun upwards (I used to love the Black Ops Skorpion for it's almost total lack of recoil - so sad ) Re- the BOps AK47 The kick figures were 60 up, left, right, and 30 down, if I recall. This means that the gun would appear to bounce all over the place when you fired it, but it would mostly recover from any downwards kick before the next round was fired. Some of the more random recoil guns had surprisingly high 3rd, 4th shot accuracy, as the random kick could pull the gun back towards the aim point. Remember, the plots represent where the next rounds are fired, and do not show the maximum extent of viewkick.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 17, 2011 2:44:18 GMT -5
The AK47 still has terrible visual recoil, despite the scatter plot showing it as being surprisingly accurate. It's just the animation of the gun itself kicking up and down. While it doesn't have an effect on where the shots actually land, it makes it look like your gun is flying way off target, which is disorienting and can make it hard to track your targets. EDIT: It seems to me like the G36C is the gun to beat in terms of full-auto ARs. Second best TTK up close (only bested by the M4A1 by a measly 2 milliseconds, which is trivial), and the single best TTK at range, even besting the FAD by ~6 ms. That being said, of course, the FAD has a 50 ms faster ADS time, which instantly gives it the best TTK of the full-autos at both close and long range if you assume you snap to ADS before you fire. Unfortunately, Quickdraw and Stalker both mess with that concept. I don't fancy the G36 myself; like the look of te FAD and M4. But what do I know; haven't bought the game yet lol.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 17, 2011 2:47:04 GMT -5
Wow, I just tested the acr, fad, and the g36 against a wall at medium range. Your charts are dead on. The g36 stays in a straight line. Sometimes the recoil makes the whole cluster not climb and other times it climes quite a bit. The Acr when bursted dosent rise but moves left and right like the green. When held down it climbs in a z pattern up which in enough clips in the same spot would fill it in like the blue part. The fad climbs as much in my testing as the g36 but the cluster is fatter like yours shows. It is also more random on which way it is going too bounce. These were all tested ads whithout kick or anything else to help compernsate there recoil. Thanks for the feedback; appreciated. I really will have to buy the game now; if only to test the guns myself. But I have become addicted to Battlefield Play4Free. "Must not buy Battlefunds, Must not buy Battlefunds...."
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Post by psijaka on Nov 17, 2011 2:50:11 GMT -5
Also with sub machine guns, I did some testing with the mp7 with some of the different arrangements that you can do with it. I listed what appears to from my testing to be the least amount of recoil/climb to the most amount of recoil/climb. mp7; 1. kick 2 kick with rapid 3. stock 4. rapid Also, one more side note, the sway does affect the pattern. A gun like the mp7 that shoots pretty much up and down, you can watch the pattern curve side to side as the sway moves side to side causing slight bends in the pattern as it goes upward. I thought that sway would have an impact. As soon as I track down the data on sway, and figure out how it works, I'll re-do the plots to include it. Anyone know where I can find sway data for MW3?
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Post by rejectionrole on Nov 17, 2011 10:22:11 GMT -5
Re: The AK47 and visual recoil. Visual Recoil (also called gunkick, I believe?) is different than viewkick—it's just the animation that the gun displays while it's firing. Using Black Ops as an example, the AK47 and the Commando had exactly the same recoil values and center speed, but the Commando LOOKED more accurate because it's animation wasn't as all over the place. A lot of times the bouncing of the AK47 could obscure your actual targets.
I don't really like the G36 either, which is weird. But the more I play, the less I like anything that's not the MP7. I'm starting to see very little reason to use any other full-auto weapon (though the Type 95 and MK14 are still useful). It's got amazing controllable recoil, which will never pull horizontally off target, and as an SMG it has Stalker and Quickdraw virtually built in. 40 round mags are nice, and with Rapid Fire it has a better TTK than any full-auto AR at either short or long range. The only thing I wish it had was rifle bullets to mow down multiple enemies, but that's about it.
Don't know about the sway data, but there's an inherent problem with incorporating it. Sway starts at zero when you snap to ADS, and increases as you stay in ADS mode. The amount it increases depends on the gun and the stability proficiency. But realistically, sway makes very little difference at anything but extremely long range, since early on the sway isn't enough to really pull you off target, and it's extremely easy to just release-tap L1 again and reset your 'sway timer' to zero.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 17, 2011 10:33:10 GMT -5
I dont think that we had gunkick on the wii version of black ops. I believe that the gun always recovers from gunkick, so the effect is purely visual.
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Post by rejectionrole on Nov 17, 2011 10:35:55 GMT -5
No you're right, it is purely visual. It's just that different guns have different visual effects while firing, and some people will prefer some visuals to others. The BO Enfield, for example looked like it was about to kick back into your face it was so bad. That's all I'm saying.
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Post by wcparker on Nov 17, 2011 10:52:48 GMT -5
re the MK14 I always hesitate to post recoil scatter plots of semi auto guns because they would only be valid if someone were to fire at EXACTLY the right speed; not possible in practice. Or am I being naive? I admit one can't generally sustain EXACTLY the fire cap speed, but I think that when I spam the trigger I'm generally hovering somewhere near it. It's certainly not like COD4, where a modded controller would turn it into a super-automatic. Firing more slowly really applies to all of these guns (bursts for the automatics), so I think it's still useful to see the maximum possible recoil.
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neverlast74
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Post by neverlast74 on Nov 17, 2011 11:32:53 GMT -5
But realistically, sway makes very little difference at anything but extremely long range, since early on the sway isn't enough to really pull you off target, and it's extremely easy to just release-tap L1 again and reset your 'sway timer' to zero. I am still searching for my L1 button on my PC mouse
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Post by rejectionrole on Nov 17, 2011 11:40:11 GMT -5
But realistically, sway makes very little difference at anything but extremely long range, since early on the sway isn't enough to really pull you off target, and it's extremely easy to just release-tap L1 again and reset your 'sway timer' to zero. I am still searching for my L1 button on my PC mouse Very funny. The same logic still applies.
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Post by reganmil on Nov 17, 2011 12:48:34 GMT -5
Re: The AK47 and visual recoil. Visual Recoil (also called gunkick, I believe?) is different than viewkick—it's just the animation that the gun displays while it's firing. Using Black Ops as an example, the AK47 and the Commando had exactly the same recoil values and center speed, but the Commando LOOKED more accurate because it's animation wasn't as all over the place. A lot of times the bouncing of the AK47 could obscure your actual targets. nice points. i will definitely give it more of a 'go' this time around. also had the same sentiments about sway, quick tap and who gives a $h!t
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Post by reganmil on Nov 17, 2011 12:50:26 GMT -5
I don't really like the G36 either, which is weird. But the more I play, the less I like anything that's not the MP7. I'm starting to see very little reason to use any other full-auto weapon (though the Type 95 and MK14 are still useful). It's got amazing controllable recoil, which will never pull horizontally off target, and as an SMG it has Stalker and Quickdraw virtually built in. 40 round mags are nice, and with Rapid Fire it has a better TTK than any full-auto AR at either short or long range. The only thing I wish it had was rifle bullets to mow down multiple enemies, but that's about it. oops, chopped the wrong text. this was the part I enjoyed most ;D
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neverlast74
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Post by neverlast74 on Nov 17, 2011 14:49:47 GMT -5
SWAY TEST as always - non scientific - I loaded up seatown and on the side where the large well/canons are you see a sign saying Hotel. I stood on the wall on the other looking east and aimed at the "o" in hotel to see the difference in which guns are moving out of the "o" when I ADS (no addons) naked guns. Here my results... I realized it was not only the size/strech of the sway but also the speed is different. FAD & M16 have a fast sway - the speed of the sway- which is pretty severe and for me (PC camper) is a no go; unless you hip fire. Or on Xbox only reflex L1 aim fire.
good: ump, type95, m16, 901, acr,m14 (slow) medium: ak74 (slow),FAD (fast) large/bad =~30% more than "good": m4, g36, scar, mp7 (fast)
So I clearly see this needs to be kept in mind when looking at the spread pics from OP.
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neverlast74
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Post by neverlast74 on Nov 17, 2011 14:53:51 GMT -5
I am still searching for my L1 button on my PC mouse Very funny. The same logic still applies. hm darn your right - I have to test how this feels. Looking at a corner and ADS in and out all 2 sec. .. not sure if I like that. I thought L1 is also the "snap to enemy" function that PC does not have....
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Post by swoopwithnon4m3 on Nov 17, 2011 15:34:50 GMT -5
Very funny. The same logic still applies. hm darn your right - I have to test how this feels. Looking at a corner and ADS in and out all 2 sec. .. not sure if I like that. I thought L1 is also the "snap to enemy" function that PC does not have.... Target snapping only works outside of MP.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 17, 2011 16:16:10 GMT -5
SWAY TEST as always - non scientific - I loaded up seatown and on the side where the large well/canons are you see a sign saying Hotel. I stood on the wall on the other looking east and aimed at the "o" in hotel to see the difference in which guns are moving out of the "o" when I ADS (no addons) naked guns. Here my results... I realized it was not only the size/strech of the sway but also the speed is different. FAD & M16 have a fast sway - the speed of the sway- which is pretty severe and for me (PC camper) is a no go; unless you hip fire. Or on Xbox only reflex L1 aim fire. good: ump, type95, m16, 901, acr,m14 (slow) medium: ak74 (slow),FAD (fast) large/bad =~30% more than "good": m4, g36, scar, mp7 (fast) So I clearly see this needs to be kept in mind when looking at the spread pics from OP. Very interesting. I really am going to have to get to grips with how sway affects different weapons. Having low recoil is of little benefit if the gun is swaying around all over the place.
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Post by reganmil on Nov 17, 2011 16:54:37 GMT -5
RE: Sway -- Ok, I can see why it might matter on PC. But on console why would it factor into your weapon choice at all if it's negated by a simple tap? You 'flutter' the button every few seconds and no more sway. If you're ADS'ing longer than that or god forbid walking around ADS'd (Stalker boys) you're going to get p*wned hard anyways.
I see the 'sway' stat being akin to 'empty reload'. If it really matters to you, you're not playing right.
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eLantern
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Post by eLantern on Nov 17, 2011 17:04:47 GMT -5
RE: Sway -- Ok, I can see why it might matter on PC. But on console why would it factor into your weapon choice at all if it's negated by a simple tap? You 'flutter' the button every few seconds and no more sway. If you're ADS'ing longer than that or god forbid walking around ADS'd (Stalker boys) you're going to get p*wned hard anyways. I see the 'sway' stat being akin to 'empty reload'. If it really matters to you, you're not playing right. Well, I think it's a good thing to factor in anyways, knowing all stats that affect a gun can only help our understanding of what guns offer the best package, but you are right that if it's really important to someone, then that someone is likely a huge camper. IMO, hard-core tactical loitering is not really a method of play that should be supported by the game developers nor is it one that the community should be supporting either, so yes, those people are not playing the game right and therefore belittles the importance of the stat.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 17, 2011 17:07:13 GMT -5
Interesting. Is it really necessary to put kick on G36c then, since its predictable enough as it is? absolutely, as the recoil often goes up and down repeatedly. it's not a constant upwards pull like the BO M14
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 17, 2011 17:18:25 GMT -5
Would have been nice if the G36c had its sway from COD4. Interesting. Is it really necessary to put kick on G36c then, since its predictable enough as it is? absolutely, as the recoil often goes up and down repeatedly. it's not a constant upwards pull like the BO M14 If that sway test is accurate, then that means G36c has heavy sway. Wonder if Kick or Stability will help more in the long run... Or maybe I shouldn't ads for more than 2-3 seconds. lol
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Post by reganmil on Nov 17, 2011 17:22:03 GMT -5
RE: Sway -- Ok, I can see why it might matter on PC. But on console why would it factor into your weapon choice at all if it's negated by a simple tap? You 'flutter' the button every few seconds and no more sway. If you're ADS'ing longer than that or god forbid walking around ADS'd (Stalker boys) you're going to get p*wned hard anyways. I see the 'sway' stat being akin to 'empty reload'. If it really matters to you, you're not playing right. Well, I think it's a good thing to factor in anyways, knowing all stats that affect a gun can only help our understanding of what guns offer the best package, but you are right that if it's really important to someone, then that someone is likely a huge camper. IMO, hard-core tactical loitering is not really a method of play that should be supported by the game developers nor is it one that the community should be supporting either, so yes, those people are not playing the game right and therefore belittles the importance of the stat. ... Yep and I agree its still nice to have on a stats break down, just as long as it doesn't further obscure stats that really do matter. Basically, I wouldn't pop a vein over it It could get pretty deep, like time scoped effecting degree of intensity -- which I would assume to be the same on every weapon (or at least weapon class), but I don't know.
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Post by reganmil on Nov 17, 2011 17:25:15 GMT -5
Actually, based on the plot tests each weapon appears to have unique sway variables so it's likely an entirely different dataset all together. if you bros are up for the challenge go for it but to me it's just too darn trivial.
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Post by RageHulkSmash on Nov 17, 2011 22:07:13 GMT -5
Any way you can simulate with grip attachment on lmgs? Possibly kick too with all primaries if you have the chance? Ty!
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 18, 2011 0:10:26 GMT -5
Any way you can simulate with grip attachment on lmgs? Possibly kick too with all primaries if you have the chance? Ty! I'm interested to see how M60 w/ grip and Kick's recoil plot will be like(as well as every other lmg)..
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Nov 18, 2011 2:31:06 GMT -5
Is "visual kick" in this game? There are a few different forms of visual kick in the game. The animation of the gun model was already mentioned. This animation can obscure targets and give you a false sense of recoil. Similarly the muzzle flash on some weapons is obscuring enough to be put in this category as well. There is also a more kick-like component of visual kick in a sense. That is that the view and aim will kick out further away from your target than your general bullet spread. The reason for this is due to the recentering effect of centerspeed. In other words the gun kicks in a semi random direction at a given speed. Centerspeed exerts a constant force as long as the aim is off center. Thus the aim slows down, then starts to return to center. If the kick it-self was not strong enough the gun will fully 100% recenter and all of the kick will have been rendered "visual kick". If the kick is large enough then there isn't enough time between full auto shots and the shot will fall off center. Keep in mind that vertical and horizontal kick are handled independently. Thus viewkicks tend to take slightly pointy leaf shaped paths unless the kick is purely in one of 8 principle directions, which results in a strait line out and back. This is also what creates the clusters of shots falling directly above or to the sides of center. These are shots that recentered in one axis, but not the other. BTW I think it is actually a fairly safe bet that recoil works the same in MW3 as in BO. In fact a lot of the testing that led to figuring out recoil was actually done in modded versions of CoD4. Neither IW nor Treyarch have changed the core mechanics. In fact they probably have not changed since at least as far back as CoD2 if not 1. The stats and whether or not there is sway has changed from game to game. Also just to clarify. If a plot lacks blue dots it is because that is a burst fire weapon incapable of firing a 10 round burst, at least according to the best information that Psijaka had at the time. I am slightly curiuos if it is possible to fire these burst fire weapons fast enough to have not fully recentered between bursts, and thus potentially build up a progressively more off center pattern... But even if it's possible it's not realistically valid. In practice you're usually only going to fire a few bursts at a time and even then most players will fail to get every single burst fired as absolutely fast as possible. Also... Once again, great work psijaka! I remain jealous. ;3 Not that I can get into this too much since I don't have MW3...
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Post by psijaka on Nov 18, 2011 3:19:15 GMT -5
Any way you can simulate with grip attachment on lmgs? Possibly kick too with all primaries if you have the chance? Ty! As soon as I get hard data on the effects on centerspeed/viewkick for attachments and "Kick" I'll be doing more plots.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 18, 2011 3:21:00 GMT -5
Is "visual kick" in this game? Also... Once again, great work psijaka! I remain jealous. ;3 Not that I can get into this too much since I don't have MW3... Thanks for the feedback, mannon. The sad thing is, I dont have MW3 either.
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