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Post by dhakhar on Nov 18, 2011 10:54:01 GMT -5
Would be interesed to see how kick affects the Type 95/M16, if it tightens the burst itself similar to MW2 M16 Holo.
YAMB, B.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 18, 2011 16:55:32 GMT -5
OK, I've tested a couple of guns in a private match and had a look at sway. As has been posted earlier, the sway only starts to build up in speed and amplitude after ADSing, eventually reaching maximum values (is it my imagination, or does the the UMPs sway travel in a figure of eight slightly below the aim pont?).
So this poses me a priblem; do I just assume that the recoil plot bursts take place immediately after ADSing and ignore sway, or do I assume the bursts take place after sway has built to it's maximum? At this stage the answer is easy as I don't have the data or understanding to factor in sway. That may change, in which case I'll plot both.
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Post by wcparker on Nov 18, 2011 17:05:29 GMT -5
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Post by psijaka on Nov 18, 2011 18:43:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the link. Nice to get confirmation that I am on the right track. Looks as if the relationship between viewkick and centerspeed is the same as it was in bops.
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Post by xflrstx on Nov 18, 2011 18:55:29 GMT -5
from what i see kick seems to do iether nothing or its effects are miniscule, also rapid fire seems to add almost no recoil and on some weapons appears iether take away recoil or make it easier to control. at the very least i would suggest people try it out for them self for the weopons they use most. and maybe someone could look into it. for a specific example try the p90 with kick then try it with rapid fire , rapid fire seems to reduce recoil by like 50 percent.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 18, 2011 19:09:15 GMT -5
from what i see kick seems to do iether nothing or its effects are miniscule, also rapid fire seems to add almost no recoil and on some weapons appears iether take away recoil or make it easier to control. at the very least i would suggest people try it out for them self for the weopons they use most. and maybe someone could look into it. for a specific example try the p90 with kick then try it with rapid fire , rapid fire seems to reduce recoil by like 50 percent. Ah; I remember having this discussion about rapid fire in my Black Ops recoil thread. What happens with RF is that when you get big viewkick, the next round can occur before the visual recoil has reached it's maximum, and I believe that when this happens, the residual velocity is cancelled and replaced by the new Viewkick velocity, before the maximum displacement has occurred. Sorry if I'm not explaining this very well; I'll have a search through my Black Ops thread and see if I can find the relevant posts.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 18, 2011 19:15:56 GMT -5
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Nov 18, 2011 20:36:23 GMT -5
tl;dr Regarding RF... It's complicated... >,> (yes yes, I know it's long. That's why I tl;dr myself and describe myself as a "wordy bastard". Just ignore me...)
(I believe the great question over whether velocity was conserved or overwritten and Den's testing using modded weapons in CoD4 finally proving that it was overwritten. This was a key issue and if I recall was the last great hurdle to completing the recoil model theory currently employed by psijaka.)
As psijaka says the relationship between the viewkick/centerspeed stats aka the recoil characteristics and the rate of fire are not as simple as one might think. Generally the assumption is that faster rate of fire means more recoil. Something backed up by personal experience largely due to the increase in the visual aspect. In other words the screen jerks around a lot faster.
Since every single recoil kick starts at center and takes a path away from, and then back to center, the exact timing of the next shot is incredibly important. In other words there is not one sweet spot for ROF, but two. If you take any given weapon and start at a very slow ROF you will find a rate that recenters 100% of the shots fired. This would be like single firing on long range targets. If you begin to increase the ROF you'll find fewer shots settling all the way back to center, but that the kick still has enough time to jump out and begin returning in before the next shot is fired.
Increase the ROF some more and you are giving the weapon less time to recenter, thus increasing the recoil pattern. (Not that the actual recoil has not changed, merely the timing of shots fired.) At some point the ROF becomes the worst possible ROF for a given weapon. This would be a ROF that results in the next shot happening at the apex of the kick at the furthest point away from center, for the most and largest kicks. (Given that guns do not kick exactly the same amount each shot we'd have to use a statistical model to give us the actual worst possible ROF. But you get the idea.)
Now once we have reached this worst possible ROF increasing the ROF even more actually improves the shot grouping, because shots are now going off before the weapon has reached the end of it's kick. This produces a tighter pattern overall, but even more importantly it produces tighter bursts because several shots can be fired closish to center before the gun has kicked appreciably off target. This is in fact the key to the accuracy of the burst fire weapons. They have a very high ROF which enables tight grouping, and then the enforced delay allowing recentering between bursts.
It should be noted that although this very high ROF can be beneficial it will also accentuate directional kick. In other words if you compare a weapon that kicks more up than down and you compare a slow ROF to a fairly equivalent high ROF version, on either side of the worst possible ROF. The high ROF version will be able to match the low ROF in horizontal kick, but at the ROF where it does it will kick up a great deal more than the other version. However, this is also what we would call predictable recoil, which can be compensated for. And thus it is not necessarily a bad thing in experienced hands. Probably the best example is the infamous Famas from BO. The gun had unbalanced recoil in not just one axis, but two... both right and up. And it had a high ROF. But look at the recoil plots. Yes it has a lot of recoil and won't stay on center for very long at all. But the recoil pattern is still fairly tight and extremely predictable with only so much scattering beyond the "box". Master that box and you can go full auto at mid range with pretty decent confidence.
Unfortunately, what all this means is there is no easy rule of thumb when it comes to RF. You know it will increase visual recoil, but the actual shot grouping could be better, worse, or largely unaffected. It will tend to enhance the directional bias of a weapon, for better or worse. As to the effects on the overall pattern or even just the pattern for the first 3 shots I wouldn't hazard a general rule as there are too many variables. If the weapons in MW3 are all similar enough then a general rule as it applies to MW3 could be ascribed, but only after doing the calculations for each individual weapon has been accomplished. I'm sure psijaka will be attending to that. (A service for which he deserves much credit. Thanks bro.)
I would argue for patience while the work is done, but also knowing a little bit about how recoil works should let bro's make informed guesses and do some testing of their own.
PS. Don't ask for an ideal ROF either. There are several possible answers here. The first option is the ROF that is as fast as possible, but slow enough to 100% recenter every single shot. However, this ROF is slow enough to lose most firefights. A ROF that is still fairly accurate, but allows you to kill quickly a high percent of the time is more ideal, even if you sometimes miss and lose a firefight due to nothing more than chance. There's a thread about firing 3 and 4 shot bursts vs pop firing rates that graphs this quite eloquently. But if you really want to be technical about it and you aren't constrained then an insanely high ROF would always be better. In fact the best possible is numerically impossible because it would be infinite, firing your entire clip instantly. (There was a MW2 glitch to allow you to do just that at one point I believe. heh) Although we can calculate the worst possible ROF in terms of accuracy, there truly are two equal extremes when it comes to the best. I'll also note that while high ROF often incurs more directional bias both the predictability along with the faster TTK tend to make this actually more beneficial than the low ROF equivalent, all other factors being equal. Honestly I think Treyarch failed to understand this when designing the Famas, and still failed to fully acknowledge it with their minimalist nerf.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 19, 2011 3:03:53 GMT -5
Thanks for your excelent reply, mannon. You explained things so much better than I did. Worthy of the title "wordy bastard" indeed ! I will be doing RF and other atachment plots, as well as some for Kick, just a ssoon as I find a rock solid source of data (and the time).
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Post by randomguy987 on Nov 19, 2011 3:27:08 GMT -5
^This. Wow, you actually made me think about topology for the first time since grad school. You win the internets today in my book, bro.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Nov 19, 2011 3:50:17 GMT -5
BTW page 8 of the BO recoil plots has some of those kill times and probabilities charts that psijaka did, showing the effects of various means of recoil compensation, including merely firing different length bursts or manually firing at a slower rate. denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2699&page=8Also note that I didn't mention it above but range to the target is a KEY variable. Meaning that every weapon with it's particular recoil stats will have a statistically worst possible ROF that is also range dependent due to more distant targets requiring more precision. (Something psijaka's charts do, in fact, take into account. Very much looking forward to similar charts on MW3... even though I don't have the game. Lord I'm such a nerd! heh In fact I guarantee I've spent more time here on this message board than playing W@W, MW2, and BO combined Oh well...)
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Post by psijaka on Nov 19, 2011 10:05:13 GMT -5
mannon, randomguy I have spent a grand total of 30 minutes on MW3; 3 private matches lol. I really don't like the maps, but that is for a different thread. But I enjoy messing about with spreadsheets - nerdy or what? Better than just heading for the bar in the evening when I am working away from home. I will eventually produce kill time probablity charts; all in good time though. I wan to see full data for attachments, kick, and to get a better undrstanding of the effects of sway.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 19, 2011 11:35:39 GMT -5
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Post by sh58 on Nov 20, 2011 13:06:38 GMT -5
what about the akimbo machine pistols. i hear a rumour that akimbo skorpions have almost no recoil.
i guess they'll have to be tested against a wall rather than with simulations as we don't have the files yet
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 20, 2011 13:12:12 GMT -5
What was the deliberate mistake that no one saw?
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Post by psijaka on Nov 20, 2011 17:03:41 GMT -5
what about the akimbo machine pistols. i hear a rumour that akimbo skorpions have almost no recoil. i guess they'll have to be tested against a wall rather than with simulations as we don't have the files yet No idea, but very unlikely. Dual wields had very wide hip spread in bops; making recoil of secndary importance. I presume it is the same in mw3.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 20, 2011 17:06:42 GMT -5
What was the deliberate mistake that no one saw? You are very sharp eyed, asasa. I originally posted plots with rounds 1-4 in green; not 1-3 as stated.
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Post by jango on Nov 20, 2011 23:58:55 GMT -5
what about the akimbo machine pistols. i hear a rumour that akimbo skorpions have almost no recoil. i guess they'll have to be tested against a wall rather than with simulations as we don't have the files yet No idea, but very unlikely. Dual wields had very wide hip spread in bops; making recoil of secndary importance. I presume it is the same in mw3. I tested the akimbo skorpions myself on PS3 and they have far,far,far less recoil than a single skorpion (Almost none actually, its comparable to the ACR but because your hipfiring its very hard to notice most of the time). And if im not mistaken the crosshairs are also slightly smaller than the other machine pistols. Since the skorpion is other wise easily the worst MP i think this is the niche that infinity ward wanted them to fill. Also a note psijaka the size of the akimbo MP's cross hairs is the same as the MW2 MP ones (Saying this because it seemed you thought they were the same as blops smg akimbo's)
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 21, 2011 1:39:46 GMT -5
Ahhh. I C WUT U DID THAR I think we all forgot that the first shot is accurate and the 3 lines of green just made sense Anyone else find the MP7 RF + Range to be the best shotty and sniper rifle in the game?
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Post by psijaka on Nov 21, 2011 7:55:54 GMT -5
Ahhh. I C WUT U DID THAR I think we all forgot that the first shot is accurate and the 3 lines of green just made sense I missed it for a while, but the penny dropped when I was looking at the 3 green horizontal bands on the uncorrected Skorpion plot. The Skorpion is dead. Long live the MP7!
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Post by psijaka on Nov 21, 2011 14:16:45 GMT -5
I would like to expand the OP to include plots with attachments, and to show the effect of kick.
Dos anyone have any hard information on the following:
1- rapid fire rates of fire 2- the effects of grip on centerspeed 3- the effect of acog on centerspeed 4- the effects of kick
Please post your sources.
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Post by rejectionrole on Nov 21, 2011 15:12:09 GMT -5
I haven't heard anything to indicate that Rapid Fire has changed from its previous statistics of RoF x 1.33 (Fire Time x 0.75). Kick, according to the guide, reduces your recoil by 20%. Not sure on the other two.
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Post by reganmil on Nov 21, 2011 15:29:01 GMT -5
Yep. Also, to my knowledge it has yet to be confirmed whether kick effects recoil (-20%), or centerspeed (+20%)?
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 21, 2011 16:09:47 GMT -5
Should reduce the kick values
Which when you look at the ACR, it's pretty clear they put some thought into it.
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Post by psijaka on Nov 22, 2011 3:56:42 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies.
I'll do one or two trial plots. Tonight.
MP7 with and without RF (based upon 1.33 x normal ROF)
ACR with and without Kick (based upon Kick reducing Viewkick by 20%)
Any other requests? Please be very specific.
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Post by reganmil on Nov 22, 2011 11:16:00 GMT -5
P90 with and without RF (based upon 1.33 x normal ROF)
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moses
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Post by moses on Nov 22, 2011 11:37:15 GMT -5
All LMGs fully loaded with Kick and Grip, to see how they really stand against the automatic ARs.
PP90, P90, MP7 with RF, AND PP90, P90, MP7 with RF + Kick, because those are the three SMGs that people want to get as much info on when comparing which they want to use.
Thanks for doing this!
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Post by psijaka on Nov 22, 2011 19:07:27 GMT -5
P90 with and without RF (based upon 1.33 x normal ROF) All LMGs fully loaded with Kick and Grip, to see how they really stand against the automatic ARs. PP90, P90, MP7 with RF, AND PP90, P90, MP7 with RF + Kick, because those are the three SMGs that people want to get as much info on when comparing which they want to use. Thanks for doing this! OK; here are a few: - WOW - !!! moses: I don't have data for grip yet.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Nov 22, 2011 19:31:32 GMT -5
O,O Wow... I want this game now just so I can play with the MP7. That looks deadly! P90 also looks to me like RF definitely improves the spread. ;3 Though I suppose if you run the simulation a few times you might get a few different patterns, but notice that both the blue and green groupings look to be more narrow, at least horizontally.
Hooray for Science! >,> Well, math anyway. heh
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 22, 2011 23:02:48 GMT -5
It may be similar in max x/y distance from center, but the non-RF P90 will recenter in one of the two much more often. You can see it has a nice upside down T while the RF version does not. Also, see what I meant about the ACR + proof of them putting thought into it?
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