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Post by bedlam36 on Feb 10, 2012 13:33:00 GMT -5
I don't know why, but once I tested exactly the same way shotty town did, and a pellet was behind the enemy. I mean, it passed through him or not? It damaged him or not? Anyway... KSG = A better Spas at close ranges. Spas = An arguably better KSG at longer ranges. Model = An arguably better Spas at longer ranges, but unable to be customized. (Grip or Ext. Mags). Bedlam, what you've done so far really helped the Den community (IMO). I salute you, sir. Anyway, is the KSG really 15 min damage? Going to test it out. Thanks. I'm not really sure what we have proved here, other than MW3 is confusing and shotguns are too weak.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Feb 10, 2012 14:56:56 GMT -5
Oh well. Anyway, even the bearer of bad news is welcome here.
... Testing the KSG:
Again, unexpected results.
-Private match testing, dual controllers.
-Health set to Half. (50)
-Health regeneration set to None.
-Apparently top range to damage opponent was achieved and after some testing, 4 hit markers was a kill. Then, to the damage dealt testing.
-After 3 shots with a Ext. Mags KSG (undamaged), it should have dealt 45 damage. However, after throwing 8 stuns, the enemy was still alive (then I gave up by laziness). I believe it's 13 damage, so it didn't killed in 3 shots + 8 stun damage (39 + 8) but killed in 4 (52) and, at the same time, couldn't be 12, since in four shots it would've dealt 48 damage. Also couldn't be 14 since I stunned the enemy 8 times and he didn't die (42 + 8).
I don't know if I was far enough to my opponent, but I guess this serves to prove that 15 is not, unfortunately, the minimum damage. I could be wrong about the exact damage, but 15 is surely NOT the minimum. Maybe it is 12 but I'm not sure.
Bedlam, could you test it out?
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 10, 2012 15:27:44 GMT -5
Someone needs to make sure stuns are doing 1 damage consistently.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Feb 10, 2012 16:08:29 GMT -5
Invite your clan to a Dome TDM 1 vs 6 and order everybody to keep throwing stuns at the loner. =P
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 10, 2012 16:12:19 GMT -5
yeah, there has to be something wrong with stuns, because even before the patch the KSG had this weird aspect where a sliencer didn't really reduce its 1HK range as much as other shotguns and it only made sense in the context of 6 pellets doing 25-15 damage each.
To put it another way, while the SPAS-12 has always been giving lots of hitmarkers even after the patch, the post-patch KSG is very good at getting 1HKs even at hitmarker range.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 10, 2012 16:19:15 GMT -5
Im on PS3 and free to do any private match testing today or tomorrow
L--Like--Turtles
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Post by -3055- on Feb 10, 2012 16:45:12 GMT -5
include me for any testing necessary on ps3 also
L-3055-L
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 10, 2012 17:10:37 GMT -5
Just ran pellet to kill test counts for a half hour to conclude you cant determine damage off of that..
Sometimes pellets penetrate the body, sometimes they do not..
Sometimes they just disappear altogether.
It does seem like the SPAS is a 4 pellet kill though, as sad as that would be...
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 10, 2012 17:16:56 GMT -5
just a thought, but wouldn't the best way to test the KSG be to set health to 30 and see if it is possible to get 3 hitmarkers?
And if the SPAS-12 and 1887 still do only 30 damage, people need to bombard their message boards and phone lines until they buff the SPAS-12, 1887, and AA12.
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 10, 2012 20:54:10 GMT -5
I just did some testing on splitscreen on 360, a few things I found:
1) split-screen is affected by patches (KSG w/grip fired 9 pellets per shot, spas-12 fired 8 pellets per shot w/mags)
2) KSG kills in two pellets long range when damage is set to 30 (never could get a second non-kill hitmarker) This is without damage, so Minimum damage is definitely 15.
3) Stun grenades definitely consistently do 1 damage (1887 w/ damage at max range (28 damage) + 2 stuns killed.)
4) The SPAS-12 does 30 damage (no hitmarker non-kills for 30 health and 3 Hits plus 10 stun grenades killed him at full health).
I am simply amazed at how little IW is able to fix their game. I don't even know any programming and I bet that if I was given 2 months I'd be able to create a working buff for these shotguns.
Can't believe they so stubbornly refuse to admit to how badly they balanced the shotguns and won't try and fix them.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Feb 10, 2012 20:58:09 GMT -5
I just did some testing on splitscreen on 360, a few things I found: 1) split-screen is affected by patches (KSG w/grip fired 9 pellets per shot, spas-12 fired 8 pellets per shot w/mags). Patches, yes. Hotfixes, no. So if they nerfed the min damage of the KSG, it wouldn't be nerfed in the split-screen. I know it is sad, but IW logic -> More pellets, bro? Less damage! I'm not sure, but my tests say otherwise... sure, I could be wrong. In fact, I'm hoping for that.
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 10, 2012 21:14:13 GMT -5
I just did some testing on splitscreen on 360, a few things I found: 1) split-screen is affected by patches (KSG w/grip fired 9 pellets per shot, spas-12 fired 8 pellets per shot w/mags). Patches, yes. Hotfixes, no. So if they nerfed the min damage of the KSG, it wouldn't be nerfed in the split-screen. I know it is sad, but IW logic -> More pellets, bro? Less damage! I'm not sure, but my tests say otherwise... sure, I could be wrong. In fact, I'm hoping for that. Well, did you try getting a second non-kill hitmarker with the KSG at long range with health set to 30? That's how I tested it (proficiency was kick).
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Feb 10, 2012 23:03:21 GMT -5
I got 3 hitmarkers on 50, which is right. However, after throwing 8 stuns, the target was still alive. Could you test it out, then? In Brazil it's 1 a.m and I'm sleepy =P
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 10, 2012 23:24:15 GMT -5
I got 3 hitmarkers on 50, which is right. However, after throwing 8 stuns, the target was still alive. Could you test it out, then? In Brazil it's 1 a.m and I'm sleepy =P I did, although it was in splitscreen, and like I said, it was always the second hitmarker that killed at minimum range. So unless there was some random hotfix they did that changed the damage on the KSG, I have a hard time believing that the KSG is somehow different in online matches. It just doesn't make sense that the patch that changed the KSG and USAS was later accompanied by a hotfix that had nothing to do with pellets (because as I said I was finding that the KSG fired 9 pellets per shot w/grip) but instead was done to reduce the long range damage on the KSG.
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Post by bedlam36 on Feb 11, 2012 14:20:36 GMT -5
I might try some KSG testing today. But yeah, make sure all tests are done in online private matches.
And I've noticed tons of hotfixes since the patch that they don't even tell us what they're doing. They could be tweaking all the weapons like trolls, and we would have no idea. I hate their lack of transparency. Why do we not deserve to know every detail about the game?
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 11, 2012 15:54:36 GMT -5
at least G IH A IN ID II said he is going to inform people on the hotfix forum about when buffs the shotguns got.
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Zero IX
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Post by Zero IX on Feb 11, 2012 17:08:22 GMT -5
This is why the most important test of all is how well you are able to do in a "real" combat situation with your weapon of choice.
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Post by llednik on Feb 11, 2012 19:05:53 GMT -5
The problem with the "real combat" test is that some games I might crush a lobby with a pm9 and others I might go negative with an acr. Doesn't make the pm9 a better weapon though.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 11, 2012 19:12:26 GMT -5
^Yep.
I really, really want to know if the Spas is a 3HK w/out damage... switched range for damage now, but I miss super long shot pre-damaged kill WTF BBQ lolz rage RWK in S&D
Oh, also, wouldnt a simple test be this:
Take ACR
Shoot opponent at min damage range twice.
Check screen blood.
Shoot 2 pellets of spas
Check screen blood.
If its 30 per pellet, it's gonna be the same.
If its 35, it should be super bloody, like a RSASS/MK14* shot to the chest.
DERP or do it even more easily with a 35 damage full auto. Derp derp :[
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Zero IX
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Post by Zero IX on Feb 11, 2012 19:25:48 GMT -5
Naturally, but if your sample size is large enough, you will be able to pass a more informed, if subjective, judgment on the usefulness of a weapon or game mechanic to you than you could just by knowing the numbers. If I had a choice between knowing all the actual gun stats or being able to download hours of experience with each one into my brain, I'd take the latter option for sure.
It's not unlike you running SitRep versus Steady Aim on the AA12, or the people who ADS with their shotgun because it gets them better results, you know. If I crushed more lobbies with the PM9 than the ACR, well, I'd conclude that my mindset and skills are more suited to that weapon despite it being statistically inferior... although I'd definitely have to be using the ACR wrong to wind up in such a scenario, lol.
One of my most impressive games in Black Ops was a 56 kill, 10 death game in Demo with the Ballistic Knife only and Spy Plane-CSP-BB as my killstreaks. I used the Ballistic Knife in that game to great effect on a number of occasions, and it was definitely my favorite secondary even though it was outclassed by a pistol in most cases.
Long and short of it is, my experience tells me that no matter what minute differences exist between the manual-action shotguns in MW3, they're all in basically the same boat with basically the same capabilities: not unusable, but still largely underpowered by comparison. I definitely support any attempts to find the real numbers out since the devs refuse to be straight with us, but I like to keep it in perspective.
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 12, 2012 2:20:33 GMT -5
Just did the same KSG test on private match and I can say in no uncertain terms that the KSG does 15 damage per pellet at long range and probably 28 damage close range.
For the test, I had range on the KSG (not damage) so that I could have the minimum damage be a distance where the spread is as big as possible. It was NOT possible to get a second hitmarker without killing them in the process.
And to make sure that miniscule health is still 30, I went close range and, after a few tries, was able to get a hitmarker on the enemy without killing them, which means that miniscule is still 30 health and the KSG does 28 damage close range.
And of course, just as an extra check, I got one hitmarker with the ksg at long range and then fired at them with a USP at long range, and one pistol bullet enough, so it's impossible that the gun is doing less than 13 damage.
EDIT: Just confirmed that the KSG does 28 damage up close. In miniscule health, 1 pellet plus two stun grenades is enough for the kill.
I'm starting to think that there must have been something wrong with your KSG test.
Now based on that, I can safely say that private match is an effective way to test the shotgun damage, meaning:
Spas-12: 30-14 x8 1887: 30-20 x8 KSG: 28-15 x9
clearly the KSG is the best pump-action and they only things they need to do is:
1) increase the KSG to 30-15. the 9 pellets at 30-15 make it great for 1HKs even without damage, especially when yo consider the fact that it can OHK even at hitmarker range
2) change the spas-12 to 35-10 and increase the RoF to 75 RPM
3) change the 1887 to 40-20. No one finds the 1887 with damage unusable, but it does seem to be unusable without damage, so why not make it do 40-20 damage so that it's good with damage or range.
4) increase the AA12 damage to 18-8 w/out damage and make it normally have 8+24 mags w/out scavenger pro.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Feb 12, 2012 14:19:56 GMT -5
Make AA-12 have a drum mag of 20 bucks.
And I don't know, glad it is still 15 minimal damage on the KSG... but still don't know what happened on my testing. On HALF life settings, it was possible to get 3 hitmarkers but it wouldn't kill in 5 stuns.
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 12, 2012 15:36:01 GMT -5
Make AA-12 have a drum mag of 20 bucks. And I don't know, glad it is still 15 minimal damage on the KSG... but still don't know what happened on my testing. On HALF life settings, it was possible to get 3 hitmarkers but it wouldn't kill in 5 stuns. Maybe there is a range where stun and flash don't actually do damage? Try redoing the test in HC health and then in half health making sure to always have the stun grenade land right right next to him. And I think 20 rounds would be ridiculous even for the AA12. 8 mags could work if it was 18-8 damage instead of 15-5 damage. That way: w/out damage, it would be a 6-13 pellet kill instead of a 7-20 pellet kill. w/damage it would be a 4-10 pellet kill instead of 5-15 pellet kill. It also should have for starting rounds: 8 + 24 normal 12 + 36 w/extended mags 8 + 54 w/scavenger pro 12 + 84 w/scavenger pro + extended mags for comparison, the USAS has the following for starting rounds: 6 + 30 normal 9 + 45 w/mags 6 + 56 w/scavenger pro 9 + 84 w/scavenger pro + extended mags
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Zero IX
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Post by Zero IX on Feb 12, 2012 15:36:36 GMT -5
I just want to see at least one manual-action shotgun with the same stats as MW2's SPAS. High risk weapons are novelties if the reward isn't equal to the risk. MW2's SPAS got it right; when will IW realize that none of MW3's manual-actions, which they were nice enough to give us three of instead of the actual variety we had in MW2, are just not worth using except for fun? :/
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 12, 2012 15:45:34 GMT -5
I just want to see at least one manual-action shotgun with the same stats as MW2's SPAS. High risk weapons are novelties if the reward isn't equal to the risk. MW2's SPAS got it right; when will IW realize that none of MW3's manual-actions, which they were nice enough to give us three of instead of the actual variety we had in MW2, are just not worth using except for fun? :/ they need to buff the shotguns, but 40-20 w/damage for the spas12 would be too powerful for these maps However, 35-14 would work great for the spas-12 and then with the 1887 36-20 would work because of the larger hipfire spread.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 12, 2012 15:50:10 GMT -5
Larger hipfire makes it easier to use. I cant see that as a need to buff it.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Feb 12, 2012 16:21:56 GMT -5
Make AA-12 have a drum mag of 20 bucks. And I think 20 rounds would be ridiculous even for the AA12. 8 mags could work if it was 18-8 damage instead of 15-5 damage. Sarcasm Oh yeah, return MW2 16-round ext. mags + 1 mag. That is fully acceptable IMO. One would need to grind a lot to achieve this.
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Zero IX
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Post by Zero IX on Feb 12, 2012 16:53:18 GMT -5
The SPAS being 40-20 would not be too powerful at all on these maps. A shotgun should dominate at close quarters; that's its whole point. The SPAS-12, Model 1887 and KSG currently under-perform significantly versus the USAS and Striker, and are even less reliable at what they do than the newly de-improved AA12 is at what it does! We are all painfully aware of the extremely effective machine pistols secondaries that kill almost instantly in close quarters and maintain enough accuracy to go toe-to-toe with SMG users at middle ranges, not to mention ARs like the Type-95 or MK14 which can remove a player from the battlefield in an instant. Sometimes I'm taken out by a Type-95 and expect to see a sniper rifle in the kill cam... and considering I've out-hipfired akimbo FMG9 users with the Type by sheer dumb luck on multiple occasions, a pump-action shotgun that's actually good will not, in any way, shape, or form be anywhere close to overpowered.
MW2's SPAS-12 coexisted peacefully with the Striker and M1014 in MW2, and it won't be any different in MW3 if it were returned to its former glory. Considering the fact that manual-action shotguns are PRIMARY weapons now, there's no excuse for me to engage two opponents within the 12m range with a Model 1887 +Damage only to get hitmarkers on both guys (edit: to clarify, I fired twice, once at the first guy then snapped to the second because I expected the first guy to be toast at that range), then die to their return fire... or in the same game, I'm rushing into the bunker on Dome and kill one guy at about 8m or so, and another guy comes around the corner... I shoot him at almost the exact same distance, get hitmarkers and die.
It was still a fun game, and I finished 34-14 with one nice five kill annihilation where I took out the entire team with the Model in under 20 seconds, but if I had been using the akimbo FMG9s in those same situations as above, I probably would have died half as much or less and scored even better. (Edit: There was one lulzy moment shortly after the first scenario above where, charging back into the Dome to revenge kill the guys who killed me, I thought, "foxtrot it," sprinted in and just knifed both of them without taking a scratch, lol.)
Anyway, the point is that the MW2 SPAS would fit perfectly into MW3, and seriously, the MW2 SPAS as a primary has much more of a right to be in the game than obscene akimbo machine pistol secondaries. If the SPAS-12 is to cough up 8 pellets per shot, it should 1) be able to kill in two pellets with Damage so that it doesn't get BS hitmarkers, 2) have an OHKO range advantage versus the semi and full auto shotties to justify its existence, and 3) kill in three pellets without Damage so that Range actually has a selling point and leveling it up isn't a pain in the ass.
Btw, larger hip fire cross hairs make is easier to hit a target, but make it less deadly by decreasing the shotgun's effective range and increasing the chances of getting hitmarkers. The "best" cross hair size is going to depend in part on the power of the weapon... for example, the MW2 SPAS could get away without using Steady Aim, but lack of Steady Aim definitely diminishes the efficacy of the Black Ops shotguns.
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 12, 2012 17:10:34 GMT -5
The SPAS being 40-20 would not be too powerful at all on these maps. A shotgun should dominate at close quarters; that's its whole point. The SPAS-12, Model 1887 and KSG currently under-perform significantly versus the USAS and Striker, spas-12 and 1887 underperform. The KSG is fine though, especially with steady aim and damage or range. 9 pellets that do 28-15 damage each works well. You seem to assume that I don't want a nerf done to machine pistols (especially akimbo machine pistols), a RoF decrease on the type 95, and a nerf to the long range damage on the MK14, MP7, and ACR. Yes it would be different, because these maps have a lot more close range areas than in MW2. see, you need to look at what the real problem is. It's not the fact that the spas-12 only does 14 damage at a distance, it's the fact that it only does 30 damage up close. If the close range damage were buffed to 35, you would see a lot less close range hitmarkers (especially with damage) without making it cheap. And for the 1887, have it be 38 close range instead of 30, that way the gun wouldn't NEED the damage proficiency to become decent. I'm going to have to stop you right there and ask if you were aware of how the shotgun spread worked in Black Ops. As in, were you aware of the fact that when you aimed down the sights with the stakeout it had ridiculously tight spread regardless of Steady Aim?
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Post by shottytown on Feb 12, 2012 17:45:20 GMT -5
Hey guys this is SHoTTy. Thanks for all the testing you have done as well. I wanted to shed some light on some other valuable possibly not valuable testing that Ive done. Possibly not valuable first: Before the patch damage dealt to vehicles by shotguns (white pickup truck on bakarra map) as follows:
Model 1887 5 shots to destroy/ After patch still 5 Spas 12 6 shots to destroy/ After patch 5 KSG 12 6 shots to destroy/ after patch still 6 USAS 12 6 shots to destroy/ after patch still 6 Striker 6 shots to destroy/ after patch still 6
Dont recall the AA - 12 These tests were not affected by the damage proficiency. These tests are probably also not valuable, however I did notice the spas 12 got a higher vehicle damage post patch then before.
What may be valuable: In private match tested to see how many shots It takes to kill the Jauggernaut with all different health levels. Heres what I found...
KSG 12 and USAS 12 both kill in the least amount of shots to body and a few shots less when shooting the head. KSG 12 will kill in less when Damage prof is added. The USAS 12 doesnt change much.
The model 1887 and the spas 12 take exactly the same regardless of Damage proficiency but here is the Key!!!!! If you shoot the jauggernaut in the head with both the model 1887 and the spas 12 the model 1887 will kill in fewer shots.
Also.. The striker takes more than all to kill except the AA 12 which takes a rediculous amount of hits to kill the jauggernaut.
What does this mean? well perhaps not much but based on this test alone it would suggest that The KSG 12 and the USAS 12 are the strongest shotguns in the game and are both equal in terms of damage dealt to the jauggernaut unless Damage proficiency is equipt and then the ksg 12 wins out. Both are stronger than the model or spas. The model and spas are also stronger than the striker . And the AA 12 is by far the weakest.
This may be valuable in some ways but based on testing that we have done The ksg 12 should be the strongest as it is but the usas 12 should not be killing in less hits than the spas 12 or model and it does on the jauggernaunt. The model is slightly stronger than the spas 12 win shooting the head. and you can figure the rest out. Hope this answers some questions but I have a hunch that it will just create even more.
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