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Post by rubionubio on Mar 4, 2012 11:32:35 GMT -5
Link to the post on Symthic's: symthic.com/f/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=558Jackson was kind enough to plot out the different attachments and a few combinations for the different guns in order to actually "see" how the changes will affect the guns. As I said in the FS v. HBar thread I am looking forward to these changes, and there are a few that I plan on continuing to run Grip, but now with the addition of HBar on a few. With the Grip by itself spread does have a noticeable increase on some guns (still not that much in my opinion) but with the HBar on it as well... See for yourself. I'm personally most intrigued by: KH2k2: Grip helps mitigate that horrendous horizontal recoil, and there's a very marginal decrease in spread over the HBar by itself - and with the two combined spread is actually less than half of what it is "naked". L85: Just overall a sexy gun for the way I play. I love guns w/ no recoil and I can typically deal with the slower fire-rate by avoiding the extreme CQB situations where TTK really becomes a factor; Let's face it, TTK is useful in that it's data, but since most guns become wildly inaccurate very rapidly I would rather have the reduced recoil to go for a longer burst - taking four, five, or six shots at a time - than use a gun that requires no more than three round bursts to stay on target. W/ both attachments spread is reduced by ~50% (just going visually) compared to naked, and shots 2,3,4, and presumably 5+ are basically centered on the same spot, with a slowly increasing spread. AKS-74u: When running "combo" - which is how I'll refer to the Hbar/Grip from here on out - It's more accurate than a naked M16 or M416 and has a lot less recoil... I expect that this will be a very "comfortable" gun to use for a lot of people - the recoil is very, very close to symmetrical, it will have better than naked AR accuracy, and the combo of a low 1st shot multiplier and low recoil should put it in the M416 category of "shouldn't be good but everyone does well with it". G36c: I'm bummed about this gun; The 1st shot multiplier is just enormous and this gun will kick like a mule, and have a pronounced left handed pull, which most people aren't used to compensating for (prior to patch most guns had right handed pull, if at all). G53: Frankly, I'm really thinking about switching from the QBZ to this gun after the patch. Similar recoil profile to the AKS with an extra 100 RPM. QBZ: I will probably continue to run this most times like I do now... I'm just so used to the attachment options and I've already run HBar on it for some time now. SCAR: Man, if you can handle that first shot I think this gun is going to be awesome. I just can't see using this without the HBar though, the recoil is symmetrical but it's so strong that you could be pulled hard left or right and miss a lot of shots. Long range use anyway, and you probably have time to whip out the new fast-deploying bipod. M27IAR/RPK: Sweet tits. Again, about half the spread of a naked loadout, AND reduced recoil/spread over naked with sustained fire. My favorite mobile LMGs just got better in my opinion, so yay. So, to summarize; I'm excited about the changes because it will let me run HBar to reduce spread by a huge factor while not having to really pay a penalty in regards to recoil - due to the Grip - felt on most guns. There are a few turds mixed in, but overall I'm happy and will be running the combo on most of my non-bipod/stealth loadouts.
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Post by raxcoswell on Mar 4, 2012 12:35:44 GMT -5
man symthic's board...hoob
but yeah, I don't have much to say beyond stuff you already noted. Interesting that literally all of the assault rifles I don't use atm (L85A2, KH2002, AK74M, G3A3, AN-94) are getting pretty meaty looking buffs. I guess that's balance at work huh.
I don't really have a handle on other guns like I do the assault rifles. Glad about the M27IAR, that's pretty much the only LMG I can use (because it's an AR)
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Post by IL TJ on Apr 1, 2012 10:37:57 GMT -5
The foregrip doesn't really cancel out the recoil added with the Hbar. Foregrip only affects horizontal recoil, while Hbar increases vertical recoil.
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Post by unforgivenxile on Apr 2, 2012 4:39:02 GMT -5
It looks like the horizontal recoil reduction of the foregrip doesn't cancel out its increased bullet spread... That bipod is looking really attractive right now.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 2, 2012 5:41:05 GMT -5
I think these plots don't take in account one important thing for the HB
1,5x extra spread per shot. I know it isn't there for the G3A3 and the AN94 (they don't get extra spread/shot when using the hbar, so use that on them!) but for all other weapons I think the hb makes full auto fire way less accurate
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 2, 2012 7:59:04 GMT -5
I think these plots don't take in account one important thing for the HB 1,5x extra spread per shot. I know it isn't there for the G3A3 and the AN94 (they don't get extra spread/shot when using the hbar, so use that on them!) but for all other weapons I think the hb makes full auto fire way less accurate The spread/shot is mitigated by initial spread reduction. It only shows the first 3 shots, so the spread would bloom if he was looking for the 4th and 5th shots. HBar+no forward attachment has been my go-to arrangement. EDIT: It also makes weapons destroy at range. MIN damage range gets a 50% boost when the weapon has an HBAR on it, which makes hits at ranges between 50-90m deadlier. Tres sexy.
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Post by didjeridu on Apr 2, 2012 15:11:04 GMT -5
Symthic said the spread per shot was a bug.
So yeah, unless you're a crazy hipfire person, the HBAR is cool beans. 10-15% is barely anything with recoil; much less vertical, which is easy to correct. Better yet, go HBAR + laser and win at everything. That, along with the damage "nerf," is why I'll never touch the AKS again. QBZ is just the same thing with better attachment choices and better velocity.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 2, 2012 16:56:44 GMT -5
Symthic said the spread per shot was a bug. So yeah, unless you're a crazy hipfire person, the HBAR is cool beans. 10-15% is barely anything with recoil; much less vertical, which is easy to correct. Better yet, go HBAR + laser and win at everything. That, along with the damage "nerf," is why I'll never touch the AKS again. QBZ is just the same thing with better attachment choices and better velocity. I think that only a few guns can use the HBar+Laser combo. No ARs I think.
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Post by didjeridu on Apr 2, 2012 18:37:21 GMT -5
True, I was just using that as an extra means to turn the AKS into more of a punching bag. I hate it so much because I care. Same goes for the AK and RPK. They're better now that the game is the way it is, but they're still inferior to everything. The only difference is that they're super easy to use. It'd be nice I guess to use them just for the hell of it, but after the patch I've found myself centered on 3 guns: G3, SCAR, M60. Looking back, they're all practically the same weapon, so I guess it makes sense. I'm just all around in love with these 3 weapons, and the fact that they all handle about the same just makes it better. I tell you what, the G3 and SCAR are damn good at range, and the M60 in bipod is a scary thing.
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 3, 2012 8:10:40 GMT -5
Symthic said the spread per shot was a bug. Well, he is right about the 1.1x extra spread per shot being a bug, since that was supposed to be 1.5x like it always had been The guys at symthics use a script that only picks out the data that was changed between the prepatch files and post patch files (manually picking out those lines would be hell). You only see actual changes listed that's why you don't see anything about the extra spread per shot. It hasn't been changed pre and post patch (I know this because symthic didn't do the files for the heavy barrel and flash suppressor; another guy did it for him and he said the 1,5x spread/shot is still in tact) There is one notable exception though. In the original planned patch files, the G3A3 has a 2.0x multiplier for spread per shot (it always had that). In the actual patch, that one is the only one that got removed (it's 1.0x now) so that makes the hbar an even better attachment on the G3. You would be crazy for not using it For other weapons, the heavy barrel is ok. But on things with low recoil (meaning long accurate bursts) like the AK-74m the heavy barrel might not be the best thing. Its all about playstyle though
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 3, 2012 9:40:12 GMT -5
For other weapons, the heavy barrel is ok. But on things with low recoil (meaning long accurate bursts) like the AK-74m the heavy barrel might not be the best thing. Its all about playstyle though Don't discount that it boosts damage at range now, making the long range cut-off 50% more. That's huge for those AR-type encounters, and can also make guns like the SCAR-H kill in 4 shots out farther. Here is some quick math that is probably wrong: SCAR-H does 30 damage close, 20 at range. Without the HBar, it starts dropping off at 8m and finishes at 50m. This means that the 4 shot to kill (no legs) range goes out to (50-8)/2 + 8 = 29mIf you add on the HBar, the max range cutoff goes to 75m. That means the 4 shot to kill range now goes to (75-8)/2 + 8 = 41.5mI think that's huge, and really makes the weapon shine. The G3 is also great with it. Range goes from 60m to 90m (cutoff), and the damage is now 34-22. So, 4 shot kill range normal is: (60-8) * (3/4) + 8 = 47mWith HBar and the 90m range, it's (90-8) * (3/4) + 8 = 69.5mKeep in mind that 25 damage will also kill in 2 headshots, or 3 shots (1hs, 2 body). Sure, you have to deal with more recoil, but the payoff is tremendous if you can control it. Burst mode or single-fire helps, but both of the above weapons can easily be single-fired with proper trigger control when set to fully-automatic fire. FOR FURTHER COMPARISON: 5 Shot Range for Carbines (25-14.3), 20 dmg.: (50-8) * (5/10.7) + 8 = 27.6m before (75-8) * (5/10.7) + 8 = 39.3m after (+42.28%)6 Shot Range for Carbines (25-14.3), 16.67 dmg.: (50-8) * (8.33/10.7) + 8 = 40.7m before (75-8) * (8.33/10.7) + 8 = 60.2m after (+47.82%)5 Shot Range for AR's (25-18.7), 20 dmg.: (50-8) * (5/6.6) + 8 = 39.8m(75-8) * (5/6.6) + 8 = 58.8m (+47.56%)Someone tell me if I am off.
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 3, 2012 10:44:00 GMT -5
But that's the thing about all weapons other than the G3A3: while the hb gives more damage, it also gives more spread when you're going full auto. The recoil increase is purely verical so for me, that's not really a huge downside.
So the question is wether the spread increase is high enough to make the 5th/6th shot miss at 50 metres. Cause if that's the case, the non-hb weapon might have the advantage...I don't have a clue though
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 3, 2012 10:47:10 GMT -5
But that's the thing about all weapons other than the G3A3: while the hb gives more damage, it also gives more spread when you're going full auto. The recoil increase is purely verical so for me, that's not really a huge downside. So the question is wether the spread increase is high enough to make the 5th/6th shot miss at 50 metres. Cause if that's the case, the non-hb weapon might have the advantage...I don't have a clue though I typically burst about 4 shots no matter what, so doesn't affect me a ton. Though you do bring up a very valid point.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 3, 2012 14:20:43 GMT -5
SCAR-H with HBar, extra damage as noted above, plus: 1.) 6% more recoil 2.) 20% wider min hipfire 3.) 75% REDUCTION IN MIN SPREAD + NO EXTRA PER SHOT SPREAD[/u]
Yeah, not bad, not bad at all.
G3A3 with HBar: 1.) 6.7% more recoil 2.) 14.3% wider min hipfire 3.) 75% REDUCTION IN MIN SPREAD + NO EXTRA PER SHOT SPREAD[/u]
Yeah, the HBar is nasty on those two.
Moreover, for the SCAR-H: Foregrip: 50% reducition in horizontal recoil Only 25% increase in first shot deviation.
Wow. How do those two interact? You have a 0.25 and a 1.25 multiplier, do they multiply?
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 3, 2012 14:53:18 GMT -5
How'd you get the no extra per shot spread on the SCAR-H? Can't find anything in the symthic data meaning it has to be 1,5x
Or did you check the actual in game data?
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Post by didjeridu on Apr 3, 2012 15:19:54 GMT -5
Well, that sucks if true. Spread is the worst thing ever. So if I was using HBAR, the new suppression goes from "You probably won't hit anything," to "After the first shot, you definitely won't hit anything." The problem with the HBAR is it's just too good. If it only had the range increase or the velocity increase, I'd just write it off as a loss. With both though, and I just can't do it. I refuse to use it because of spread, and I refuse to not use it because of how awesome it is otherwise. Way too difficult. I know it doesn't mean much in most situations, but if there's even a chance that my bullets won't go where I'm aiming (unsupressed), I just can't handle it. And since weapons like the G3 have higher than normal base spread per shot, the 1.5x only makes it that much worse than other guns. Although I guess I can take comfort in the fact that by the time the spread really kicks in on the G3, the enemy should be dead already. I don't know, it's a big mental thing. Looking at it the other way, without the HBAR I'd be stuck with the G3's turtle 500m/s velocity. At longer ranges, that slight delay or necessary leading may more or less equal any spread I'd be experiencing. I just obsess over these things, and there's something wrong with me.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 3, 2012 15:32:22 GMT -5
How'd you get the no extra per shot spread on the SCAR-H? Can't find anything in the symthic data meaning it has to be 1,5x Or did you check the actual in game data? I am pulling from someone's dump onto mediafire: Link: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK HEREThis matches up with Symthic's info on his site. For the SCAR-H, the link is HERE (Scroll Down) On the mediafire link, all of the non-changes are included (usually 1.0). Somehow, on Symthic's site, they aren't there (I was looking at the "IncreasePerShotModifier 1.0" under SCAR-H, Heavy Barrel) I think that Symthic was listing what he received from DICE, probably all right, but not clean. Just to let you know, it was Aenonar that ripped it and hosted the mediafire stuff. Here is a link quoting his post. HERE Below the last linked post, he explains that he pulled it from an auto-extractor script, so I trust it, I guess. Personal anecdote: I have been kicking ass with all things naked+Hbar and Sq. Cover. It's the new AEK+Silencer+Foregrip DOUBLE EDIT: Didjeridu, rest easy m8, nothing that I see indicates that Hbar affects max spread (though the recoil when suppressed is FREAKING EPIC! I actually smile when I am suppressed and shoot and it looks as if my gun is shooting out large game rounds instead of 25g projectiles!
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 3, 2012 15:36:50 GMT -5
hmm..can you check another weapon, see if this is true for those too? Makes the heavy barrel a no-brainer though
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 3, 2012 15:41:01 GMT -5
I will check some others, it remains to be seen if the data I am using is official or not, but I have every reason to believe it is.
HBar does increase recoil a bunch, so it is still tough to auto at range compared to Supp/FS
EDIT: Checked files, 6 or 7 guns of different classes, no increased recoil modifier on any of them.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 3, 2012 15:47:53 GMT -5
Another quick find: The belt-fed 7.62 LMGs look nice enough w a foregrip M60: 16% higher minimum spread (pretty tame) {GunSwayDispersionModData: MinAngleModifier 1.16} 15% reduction (.85 multiplier) in recoil {RecoilMagnitudeMod 0.85} 50% reduction in horiziontal recoil (NICE) {RecoilAngleMod 0.5}
M240B w foregrip: 16% extra min spread, 25% reduction in recoil 20% reduction in horizontal recoil
PKP w foregrip: 16% extra min spread 23% reduction in recoil 25% reduction in horizontal recoil
Still tough to control but at least useable.
Don't know if I am interpreting these modifiers correctly.
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 3, 2012 16:04:07 GMT -5
I will check some others, it remains to be seen if the data I am using is official or not, but I have every reason to believe it is. HBar does increase recoil a bunch, so it is still tough to auto at range compared to Supp/FS EDIT: Checked files, 6 or 7 guns of different classes, no increased recoil modifier on any of them. Recoil? You mean spread right, but just said "recoil" Also, for the foregrips horizontal recoil. You pretty much have to do -0,1 horizontal recoil on both sides; all the numbers are made to do so Look at the m60; 0,2 horizontal recoil on both sides x 0,5 = 0,1 reduction M240B: 0,5 horizontal recoil on both sides x 0,2 = 0,1 reduction. Instead of a global 0,5 multiplier, it's now a global 0,1 reduction
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Post by didjeridu on Apr 3, 2012 19:49:54 GMT -5
M60 doesn't really have horizontal recoil to begin with, so it just seems like a waste. And seeing how I would never, ever full auto the M240 outside of CQC and bipod, I'm not sure the foregrip is worth it. It'll make your bursts tighter I guess, but is 0.4 - 0.4 really that much of a difference as opposed to 0.5 - 0.5? It's going to kick to the sides regardless of what you do. Might as well just accept it and use the bipod when you can. I'd use the foregrip on the M249, if it wasn't so...mediocre. The huge hit to first shot recoil and moderate hit to spread decrease make its bursts pretty lame now. Although I will be the first to admit that the previous M249 was a bit too easy to use. It's just not attractive anymore now that all the LMGs are more or less great. Well, the T-88 is still a joke. I think the T-88 would make more sense if it had burst mode or something. It doesn't have anything else going for it, so you might as well give it something slightly unique.
Is the foregrip both vertical and horizontal for every LMG? If so, I think the QBB is looking pretty good. Add in the FS (HBAR if available?), and you can laser down enemies as good as the RPK, but with more rounds and better velocity. It's been forever since I've used it, but I'm pretty sure extended only gives it a max of 100. 75 is plenty, especially since the reload isn't too bad.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 3, 2012 20:19:33 GMT -5
Recoil? You mean spread right, but just said "recoil" \ HBar does not increase spread, it does increase recoil...
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 5, 2012 12:39:39 GMT -5
Update: When I said recoil above I meant VERTICAL recoil. "RecoilMagnitudeMod" in the files is vertical, "RecoilAngleMod" is horizontal. Still curious as to how the sighted deviation between HBar and Foregrip interact... Double Update: More perusing shows me this: they are multipliers that are averaged: If a foregrip is 1.5 for deviation and the hbar is 0.25, and the original spread is .1, that means the result is:
[(.1*1.5) + (.1*.25)]/2 = 0.0875
Some people think it's that and some people think it's multiplicative, like 1.5*.25*original sighted deviation. This is correct, the modifiers are multiplicative I am pretty dumb
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 5, 2012 13:21:11 GMT -5
Another thing that I have found, adding an HBar increases your suppressive effect: +3% pts, and adding a suppressor decreases your suppressive effect: -3% pts. HBar is king, I tell you.
(above applies to several, not all guns)
Some are speculating that HBar increases muzzle velocity of some of the ARs and Carbines as well...
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Post by didjeridu on Apr 5, 2012 15:23:17 GMT -5
Hmm, silencer decreasing suppression. Now where have I seen that idea before?
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 5, 2012 17:13:44 GMT -5
Another thing that I have found, adding an HBar increases your suppressive effect: +3% pts, and adding a suppressor decreases your suppressive effect: -3% pts. HBar is king, I tell you. (above applies to several, not all guns) Some are speculating that HBar increases muzzle velocity of some of the ARs and Carbines as well... I think there was a list for weapons who get extra velocity by the heavy barrel. The M4 was on it (dont ask me why, that thing has good velocity as is) and the G3A3 and SCAR-H. I think that chinese carbine was mentioned too
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 5, 2012 17:33:26 GMT -5
Hmm, silencer decreasing suppression. Now where have I seen that idea before? Ha I remember your discussion. But then I heard Demize say that if they lowered the suppression, it would be hard to tell that you were getting shot at. I guess they fixed that by hugely buffing the range of suppression To find it, I dug through the bullet files. The bullets were broken down into 5.56 Carbine, 5.56 Carbine Cold, and 5.56 Carbine Heavy, and stuff like that. Some bullets are not affected by suppressing (cold loading) like pistol bullets.
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