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Post by osqer on Apr 20, 2012 17:47:50 GMT -5
This does not limit the range of guns to just those that have the two burst option. An automatic gun is capable of being two bursted with skill.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 20, 2012 17:53:01 GMT -5
That would be the AN-94
Maybe the AS VAL, with it's tiny less than one first shot multiplier as well. But, the AN-94, just great.
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Post by osqer on Apr 20, 2012 21:16:09 GMT -5
What about the kh2k2?
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 20, 2012 22:16:50 GMT -5
Can't unless "two bursting" is two bursts of three. You could fire it semi-auto... but that's not a burst either. Actually, I like the G3 and SCAR for two bursting as well.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 21, 2012 1:46:54 GMT -5
The pkp and m240b while in bipod. 2 burst are pretty much on point at all ranges, it's sick
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phale
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Post by phale on Apr 21, 2012 18:59:07 GMT -5
AS VAL is great. The tiny first shot multiplier gives it practically no recoil in semi-auto or two-bursting. Plus it's suppressed and can be used on any class and with a 30-round mag.
Basically, the lower the first shot multiplier, the better the gun for 2-burst.
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Post by unforgivenxile on Apr 23, 2012 6:11:21 GMT -5
AN-94 with heavy barrel. Both bullets land within centimetres of each other at 200 metres, making it excel at long range combat, better than the G3A3 in my opinion.
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Post by didjeridu on Apr 23, 2012 16:56:31 GMT -5
AN-94 with heavy barrel. Both bullets land within centimetres of each other at 200 metres, making it excel at long range combat, better than the G3A3 in my opinion. Yeah, plus the insane fire rate means the bullets hit at pretty much the same time. G3 is actually pretty mediocre at range.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 23, 2012 17:33:04 GMT -5
Until you put a heavy barrel on it... G3A3 ttk at range isn't spectacular, but it's the most accurate AR, tied with the AN-94. It has a really long 2 head shot range with the heavy barrel, and that also applies to the 4 body shot range as well (same range). And adding the heavy barrel makes the projectiles go faster as well.
Also, the G3 has really balanced and low horizontal recoil, so you can 2pop at a good range as well.
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Post by didjeridu on Apr 23, 2012 19:37:53 GMT -5
It's fine at range, just not to the point where I'd call it better than anything else. It's good for potshotting, but the other ARs can burst at ranges where G3 can't. I love the G3 to death, but it's not like 22 vs 18.4 is that much of a strongpoint. I'd be a lot happier if the G3 actually had a headshot advantage. As it is now, it does basically the same headshot damage as all the other ARs. Might as well not bother. AK74M for the headshot machine!
Besides, the real strength of the G3 is midrange, and sometimes close range ganking. If I'm really concerned about long range on Assault, I'll go AN-94.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 23, 2012 21:22:56 GMT -5
I would too as my first choice, but the G3A3 is like a no-brain solution when you don't want to click a lot. It also has extra long-range, 60 instead of 50. That means end range is 90 instead of 75, pretty solid. The bullets go 50 m/s faster as well, and you can squeeze off 3 or 4 shots before they react. I'll agree with you to a point, just don't diss my precious 0.0
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Post by didjeridu on Apr 24, 2012 20:53:59 GMT -5
I'll say what I want! The G3 knows I still care!
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Post by I Am Hollywood5 on Apr 25, 2012 0:06:33 GMT -5
SCAR-H + heavy barrel is extremely effective 2-bursting, at least for me. With the amount of recoil it has you pretty much have to 2-burst, but with HBAR it gets a 4 shot kill out to about 42 meters. G3 is the in the same vein so it's obviously just is as good as the SCAR-H at 2-burst
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 25, 2012 6:42:46 GMT -5
SCAR-H + heavy barrel is extremely effective 2-bursting, at least for me. With the amount of recoil it has you pretty much have to 2-burst, but with HBAR it gets a 4 shot kill out to about 42 meters. G3 is the in the same vein so it's obviously just is as good as the SCAR-H at 2-burst Really? I always like the SCAR-Hs recoil for longer bursts. I mean, sure, it has high recoil, but it's 1st shot multiplier is 1.35 so it pretty much stays constant Once I got a feel for the amount of vertical recoil, I was blasting accurate bursts of 4-5 at decent range. It's the main thing the SCAR has over the other 7,62 weapons (and why it was probably nerfed near launch): it has much more predictable/controllable recoil
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Post by unforgivenxile on Apr 25, 2012 6:48:54 GMT -5
OH, thats what makes the SCARs recoil seam so well balanced, that low first shot multiplier... also, does the scar really do .5 left/right horizontal recoil? When shooting I hardly notice any deviation from verticle on that thing, and this is without a foregrip.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 25, 2012 7:24:53 GMT -5
OH, thats what makes the SCARs recoil seam so well balanced, that low first shot multiplier... also, does the scar really do .5 left/right horizontal recoil? When shooting I hardly notice any deviation from verticle on that thing, and this is without a foregrip. Wow, I just only noticed now it has.. It's weird; the A91 has 0.5 - 0.5 too and it's very noticable on that thing to the point it hurts at mid range. Maybe it's just the high vertical recoil along with the low rate of fire that make it feel so controllable. But I don't really remember my SCAR recoiling any other way than straight up
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 25, 2012 9:44:31 GMT -5
I think that the difference between the SCAR and the A-91 is three things, along the line of tiesieman's reasoning:
1.) The first shot multiplier: The A-91 has a 3.0[/b][/u] first shot recoil, which leads to a...
2.) lower first shot deviation, both horizontal and vertical, for the SCAR, as well as...
3.) Spacing between 1st and 2nd shot.
That means that on the first shot, your shot deviates between 1.5 to the left and 1.5 to the right, along with some vertical recoil. That is pretty serious, like MP7 serious horizontal recoil. The SCAR, on the other hand, deviates .675 to the right or left on the first shot, 45% less horizontal deviation on the first shot than the A-91.
Further, average human reaction time (to blink, the simplest, most common reaction to outside stimuli) is about 0.1 seconds. The A-91's second bullet comes out 0.075 seconds after the first, and the SCAR-H's second shot comes out 0.1 seconds after the first. That means that gamers actually can react to the SCAR's first shot recoil at or before their second follow-up shot, whereas they will be compensating for the A-91's larger horizontal recoil after the second shot. There is no way to predict whether it will kick to the right or left, but you know it has a good chance to kick hard towards either direction.
All three combined mean that when you are hunting for a vertical (standing) silhouette out in the distance, you pick the SCAR, because you can (A) compensate for lighter, slower horizontal recoil, (B) You have lighter vertical first shot recoil, and you can pull down your sights at a steady pace, and (C) you have the time to pull right or left between the first and second shot.
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On a semi-related note:
Low-horizontal LMGs are always preferable to high-horizontal lmgs for me. Here is why:
LMGs fired in a non-bipod position tend to reach their maximum vertical ceiling fairly quickly, at most 10 or so shots (not confirmed through the number sources, but through anecdotal experience). Once that vertical ceiling is hit, to maintain accuracy, I take 2-3 shots and rest for the space of about 1 shot. LMGs as a class have extremely low recovery, so they tend to stay at that max height, or right below it, as long as you don't pause for an extreme time to "reset" your recoil. Thus, when their vertical deviation is at its maximum, horizontal recoil is the only factor which dictates where your gun pulls. Lower values (and thus foregrips) are great when you hit this tip. I used this very successfully with the PKP pre-patch, but it should work just as well post-patch if you burst for a shorter amount of time.
Test the above out yourself. Fire off 15 shots on an LMG with no mouse input, starting by staring about 5m infront of yourself. Once the sights don't rise anymore, you can easily tell the horizontal deviation of each individual shot. Take quick shooting breaks, and check where your bullets are going. On 3.4x sights, the cone should be no bigger than enough to form about half of the circle area of your sight, which is small enough to hit non-prone targets out to 60-70m.
Good LMGs (low horizontal deviation) are most, except for the M249, the M240, andType 88. This technique is less viable on the M27 IAR because it has a faster recoil recovery rate (15) than the others (12-13).
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 25, 2012 10:12:53 GMT -5
First shot recoil only applies to vertical recoil (I'm pretty sure of that; lemme find the source) so that 0.5 horizontal recoil should hurt the SCAR just as much as it hurts the A91.
As for human reaction times...Maybe, it's possible. But you gotta remember, the horizontal recoil is completely random so if you're expecting a kick to the right and it kicks to the left, your average reaction time won't mean nothing. It's gonna kick to the left.
Maybe recoil decrease has a bigger impact than we think it has (maybe bigger effect on horizontal recoil than vertical?). I can't think of anything else that would cause this much of a difference. Also weird thing is, I think the SCAR-Hs recoil decrease was nerfed I think, but I didn't notice much of a difference. Probably means I'm wrong.
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And yeah, that LMG trick is good and I agree that lower horizontal recoil is better. I think bipods generally reduce less horizontal recoil than vertical recoil too so even for that low horizontal lmgs may be better
Which is good, since I like the M60. as in how it looks
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 25, 2012 12:51:18 GMT -5
Ah, didn't know that First Shot only affected V Recoil. Hm. Still, A-91 has more 1st shot vertical recoil than the SCAR-H, so there...
Still, I think human compensation occurs in the SCAR-H faster than deviation throws off your aim to the right or left of your target.
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Post by unforgivenxile on Apr 25, 2012 16:32:30 GMT -5
The symthic chart 'could' be wrong about the horizontal recoil on the scar. I know Den's charts arent up to date with the latest patch, but they say the scar only does .2 horizontal recoil left/right. I may be wrong here, but I dont remember dice saying they ever nerfed the recoil on the scar, only its damage, therefore Den's charts should be correct.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 26, 2012 10:09:38 GMT -5
The symthic chart 'could' be wrong about the horizontal recoil on the scar. I know Den's charts arent up to date with the latest patch, but they say the scar only does .2 horizontal recoil left/right. I may be wrong here, but I dont remember dice saying they ever nerfed the recoil on the scar, only its damage, therefore Den's charts should be correct. You're 100% right, it has 0.2 - 0.2 on symthics new site too seems like we were thinking too far out of the box, rudy
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 26, 2012 10:21:16 GMT -5
Indeed.
Speaking of which, is it a bug on his new site for ARs equipped with HBars? The 25-18 ARs have longer range than the G3A3 does...
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 26, 2012 15:48:39 GMT -5
Absolute worst answer: FAMAS, F2000, and M249
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Post by unforgivenxile on Apr 26, 2012 16:21:51 GMT -5
The symthic chart 'could' be wrong about the horizontal recoil on the scar. I know Den's charts arent up to date with the latest patch, but they say the scar only does .2 horizontal recoil left/right. I may be wrong here, but I dont remember dice saying they ever nerfed the recoil on the scar, only its damage, therefore Den's charts should be correct. You're 100% right, it has 0.2 - 0.2 on symthics new site too seems like we were thinking too far out of the box, rudy Haha, sweet
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Post by didjeridu on Apr 26, 2012 19:05:39 GMT -5
If only you could mount on the SCAR. I just use the foregrip because...might as well. Not like a 20-round carbine is going to get a lot of mileage out the bipod. I still think we need at least one more attachment for the second slot. Even something as simple as laser/flashlight, I don't care...I know! Slings and bayonets, a la Brink. Man, that game was such a failure.
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Post by unforgivenxile on Apr 27, 2012 0:24:33 GMT -5
I dont know, i find the bipod rather useful for super accurate semi automatic fire at longer ranges (going for dem headshots), as well as accurate full auto at medium range. Sure, you cant camp/spray down corridors due to the magazine, but the bipod really does help for longer ranged combat if you choose the right time to use it. Also, I honestly dont notice any change in the scar's firing pattern when equiping the foregrip, all I notice is that annoying spread increase.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 27, 2012 7:15:55 GMT -5
I would agree. I was running with a foregrip when I thought that it would be beneficial to run with a foregrip, but I may switch to bipod for those instances where I have time to prone-bipod before someone sees me.
Speaking of which, I started using the M60 last night, with bipod, the first 10 shots are like more accurate than the MGs on tanks and Jeeps... What a buff! I don't know exactly how much it helps, but I was experiencing "true TTK" (no missed bullets) at really long range targets...
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Post by unforgivenxile on Apr 27, 2012 9:09:27 GMT -5
I knew the M60 with a bipod was better than the other LMG's bipoded, but I had no idea it was that good. Ill have to give it a spin tomorrow.
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