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Post by aidsaidsaids on Oct 14, 2012 9:24:59 GMT -5
Overall, in terms of general effectiveness end game I would say-
(speculation) Gaige Zer0 Maya Axton Salvador
However, it's worth restating that different situations warrant different skills, and some characters are more adaptable than others for different things. In particular, Maya is really good at controlling crowds of vanilla mobs, but less effective solo against bosses (due to the behavior of phaselock and the number of skills dependent on it). Salvador has a strong niche in abusing the Bee against those same bosses; high projectile count/time is the important thing there, and his lower accuracy is mitigated by the huge targets the major bosses in this game represent.
Fun factor is tricky because its so subjective, but for me I think it's probably
Gaige Zer0 Salvador Axton Maya
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Post by raxcoswell on Oct 14, 2012 15:15:58 GMT -5
do zer0 and maya get more fun as you level up like Salvador does? Because how they play early game bored me to tears
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Oct 14, 2012 21:59:24 GMT -5
I play Maya pretty much the same at all levels. Zer0 changes more as you get farther into your secondary tree (since his are so different), but he's still about hitting crits and avoiding damage at all levels (unless you want to run some Bloodshed+Law+Love Thumper gimmick build). You have a fair amount of freedom as far as weapon choice goes, but the basic formula is the same throughout, really. For me the fun factor is directly related to how fast the bodies are piling up.
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Post by jackaltornmoons on Oct 17, 2012 16:39:20 GMT -5
Zer0 + Axton winning combination:
Death Blossom Kunais + Death Mark + Turret with double guns that shoot Slag bullets along with numerous volleys of rockets = Everything dies.
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Post by Morshu on Oct 21, 2012 11:32:10 GMT -5
I don't know about zero. I just maxed him out but didn't find him all that effective. The sniping tree didn't do much, and the bloodshed tree was a joke. Only thing I found effective was using those kunai, hiding, them using them again. Salavador isn't a bad chararcter, but most people make the mistake of running out their thinking they can take all lot of damage when they can't. I'm getting to the siren now to see what she is like.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Oct 21, 2012 15:09:43 GMT -5
The problem with Sal is the way his ability pretty much forces you to be up close to get value. Every other character can use theirs to get value from any range, both for damage as well as an "oh shit" button to get away. Sal can't, really. For him to hit stuff from the hip (which gunzerking forces you to to) you have to be close enough that you're going to take a lot of fire a lot of the time. That would be fine if he had the skill set to mitigate it (Gaige, Maya) but he doesn't.
Of course you can survive by gunzerking from farther away, but at that point you would be getting more damage out of another character (Zer0 in particular). As it is currently, Sal mostly sees use as DPS against gigantic bosses (who can be hit from far away because xboxhueg) and as support (because he gets all the team ammo regen and team mag size mods).
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Oct 25, 2012 21:03:33 GMT -5
So I'm about at the end of the pirate DLC. My brother and I just beat Hyperius, and I'm curious what you guys think of that fight. It seems to be designed on the assumption of legendary gear, and the online social structures that enable players to realistically obtain it. I haven't heard of anyone beating him without it, and I'm nearly convinced it isn't even possible. Has anyone here beaten him and feel differently?
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Post by Morshu on Oct 26, 2012 9:57:29 GMT -5
Salvador + Gunserking + 2 good torgue shotguns= massacre Shotguns are hardly effected by the accuracy loss of gunserking and are devasting as a result.
I think I have decided axton is the best chararcter though. Powerful turrets, survivablity. Getting the slag turret with rocket pods and the longbow turret is a deadly combo.
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Post by Morshu on Oct 26, 2012 10:13:40 GMT -5
I heard that axtons turret makes him feel insignificant Axton and giage are easy mode. Poor mexican salvador has to work hard for little pay.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Oct 26, 2012 13:59:29 GMT -5
There is stuff in this game that trivializes normal mobs more than Daze ever did. Anarchy Gaige with Close Enough, Bee and CC can fire into a wall and have the pellets ricochet and kill everything around you, in playthrough 2.5, including enemies that just spawned that you can't even see yet, in 2 hits.
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Post by beavernator on Oct 26, 2012 15:41:48 GMT -5
I always challenged myself in bl1 Like, lilith had that daze bullet effect. None of us ever bought that because it was too easy and made the game easy as balls. Lilith is still pretty easy to use without Mind Games. Without it you still have Quicksilver, Spark, Diva, Girl Power, that skill that lets you stay in phasewalk for 10 seconds. I'd say a real challenge would be playing as Brick while only using his berserk skill to heal up. I never got to level 69 doing that. Mostly because Brick specializes in launchers, and launchers are terrible weapons in BL1.
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Usagi
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Post by Usagi on Oct 28, 2012 15:28:57 GMT -5
I only used launchers as elemental weapons. IIRC they were guaranteed to proc and had pretty decent damage on hit, so guerilla tactics worked pretty well. Fire a rocket, hide behind cover and wait for the enemy to die or the proc to run out, repeat.
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Post by kirbyderby on Oct 28, 2012 15:58:40 GMT -5
Helix rockets or bust
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Post by beavernator on Oct 28, 2012 20:55:26 GMT -5
Point taken, I guess rocket launchers just don't suit me... BUT grenade launchers do. Sometimes I whip out my soldier class, pull out a Heavy Gunner mod and a Dahl Jackal while pretending to be a demoman from TF2. Aye, they'll have to bury what's left of ye in a soup can!
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Post by beavernator on Oct 28, 2012 21:25:28 GMT -5
Come to think of it Grenade Launchers could work if they were their own weapon type in Borderlands. Instead of the accuracy stat grenade launchers could vary in grenade velocity so that higher-quality grenade launchers can have higher grenade velocities and thus more range. Their damage/carrying capacity can match that of the BL1 single-shot rocket launchers; maybe a slightly elevated fire rate wouldn't hurt. I also think equippable melee weapons can make for a fun addition to the game. I guess you can have it occupy a weapon slot, and if you press the melee key you automatically pull that melee weapon out. If you have multiple melee weapons in your weapon slots it'll prioritize your 1st weapon slot, then your 2nd and so-forth. Instead of the accuracy stat there will be melee reach. Weapon manufacturers can then have certain melee weapon types fashioned like the rest of their weapons using the materials used in their weapon. Flame throwers could make their way into Borderlands, but I'm guessing that's very unlikely. If they were implented their base firepower will be stunted because they'll all be elemental weapons with a (small) AOE, but their firepower is much more sustainable to make up for that. Shotguns will still be as viable in close range, but the difference is that shotguns are still effective at medium range too. Instead of accuracy there can be a number that indicates how far the tip of the AOE reaches. I then thought about accommodating other elements to fit into this weapon type. Why not have the weapon spew out acid and slag, or have an electric variant that blows out sparks into the air when fired? They're no longer flame throwers... they're just throwers now. Either way the badass factor persists, so I'm all for this idea. I'm undecided on the rest of the details of Flamethrowers in general like magazine size (if any), carrying capacity, and what the weapon will look like in-game. But still, the flammenwerfer can always use a little more loving in the world of gaming. Thoughts?
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Post by kirbyderby on Oct 29, 2012 1:23:38 GMT -5
Those are all neat, but there's just not going to be good enough variety/balance when you have such similar weapon classes. They'd be better off as a special variety/unique effect of a certain weapon (probably a legendary), or a certain manufacturer's take on that class (like how Jakobs pistols are actually high-power revolvers)
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Oct 29, 2012 1:42:52 GMT -5
Torgue torpedo ARs are already pretty much grenade launchers.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Oct 29, 2012 5:31:08 GMT -5
Nah, torgue with a torgue barrel fires rockets When Dahl has the torgue barrel, it fires actual grenades (normal ones, not affected by the grenade mod)
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Post by beavernator on Oct 29, 2012 15:25:43 GMT -5
Those are all neat, but there's just not going to be good enough variety/balance when you have such similar weapon classes. They'd be better off as a special variety/unique effect of a certain weapon (probably a legendary), or a certain manufacturer's take on that class (like how Jakobs pistols are actually high-power revolvers) For grenade launchers I was thinking of having it as a sub-class to the launcher category; Like how battle rifles and machine guns fall under the same weapon type. I think the curved projectile arc can help wittle down enemies on the high ground. The melee weapons idea I'm sticking to. I think going ONLYUSEmeBLADE in Borderlands is like buying a bucket of KFC and not eating the skin. You'll have fun, but you're missing out on the best part! Throwers are unlikely, I just think there should a weapon more dedicated towards close-ranged combat with more sustainable firepower; melee weapons might just do the trick.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Oct 30, 2012 2:12:57 GMT -5
There already are melee weapons in a way. Law, Captain Blade's Rapier, etc. Having melee weapons override character melee animations would be bad, I think, because it would undermine the very builds that would otherwise use them (melee builds).
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Post by Morshu on Oct 30, 2012 12:11:02 GMT -5
Launchers are just good for pulling them out in fight for your life.
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 30, 2012 13:48:48 GMT -5
I was just wondering - can you gunzerk two rocket launchers? That would be hilarious.
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Post by Morshu on Oct 30, 2012 13:53:24 GMT -5
I was just wondering - can you gunzerk two rocket launchers? That would be hilarious. Yes You can't regenerate rockets though.
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 30, 2012 13:59:21 GMT -5
You can't regenerate rockets though. :C
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Post by beavernator on Nov 12, 2012 3:14:00 GMT -5
Okay, scaling down to a less-crazier idea. What about shotguns and sniper rifles that reload one shell at a time?
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Post by beavernator on Dec 8, 2012 23:03:57 GMT -5
Alright. I finally got a character up to level 50 after 40 hours of playing the game. That being said I like how it took longer than it did in Borderlands 1; you could whiz through level 1 to 20 in 150 minutes.
I really like how much the weapon brands have aesthetically deviated from each other in Borderlands 2. In Borderlands 1 all the weapons shared the same model parts. If all the guns in BL1 were the same colour and had no model names it would be near impossible to tell which gun belonged to which manufacturer.
I also like how damage/ health/ shields/ price tags/ loot in general will scale exponentially as you advance in level. While there have been a few instances where I barely put a dent in the enemy because I didn't find any really good weapons, I think this need to constantly replace my equipment with even better stuff every few levels is a good thing. It certainly keeps things a lot more interesting in the later levels. In Borderlands 1 I have found Maliwan Legendaries that had me set for 20, maybe 30 levels before finally finding something to replace them with.
I honestly think the overall weapon balancing between each weapon type is decent enough. My only complaint would be that ammo is ridiculously expensive when you're fighting in arena challenges and nobody has passive ammo regeneration. I get that its cost is supposed to scale to your level, but on the other hand I really don't want to be dishing out half my earnings over something like ammo.
Somewhere around level 47 I bought everything that could be bought from the black market; it would be nice if there was further use for Eridium after that. Maybe I want even an even bigger shotgun SDU! 300 rounds might be enough; there's shotguns that fire 4 shots per trigger pull; I could use that. In my experience I think fire and acid aren't as viable as electric or slag weapons in true vault hunter mode. I think the damage penalties for something like a fire weapon on shields is too high.
Eridian weapons are gone? Good. I never found a use for them anyways.
Launchers are power weapons now? I'm perfectly okay with this. It's pretty funny how Tediore launchers become another rocket when you throw them away.
I'm hoping there will be something resembling the General Knoxx Armory Glitch in Borderlands 2. That added a lot of longetivity to Borderlands 1.
Overall I'm really liking this game; especially the part where I'm not obligated to use any particular weapon type because of which character I am.
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tooros
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Post by tooros on Jan 8, 2013 6:45:08 GMT -5
I'm loving it. Really surprised at how much. Only on playthrough #1 - as Maya circa lvl 22 just now. I keep hiding offline to play this instead of COD at the moment.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Jan 12, 2013 15:03:19 GMT -5
I found this to be most accurate.
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Post by beavernator on Jan 13, 2013 6:15:54 GMT -5
Lol Alright, here's a few picky complaints I have on the game. This is all just an opinion; please don't misconstrue this as 'RAARGH I hate the game'. Because I certainly don't. I actually think Maya's medic build much more funner than Roland's since Roland didn't have a lot of good options for healing on the move. Anyways, without further ado:
With the neat introduction of Eridium to buy storage upgrades, I've found less need to be careful with my money while leveling up. Slot machines were a decent way to mitigate that so I could find something better than the white/green weapons the RNG gods usually send me, but eventually you just don't have time to burn through half a million bucks in $3000 increments for some slightly better weapons. I think the root of the problem is how vendors tend to have worse weapons than borderlands 1. Having more guns in a game doesn't seem all that grand when the vendors still only put out 10 guns every 20 minutes. I guess this is just the nostalgia kicking in; but I miss the thrill of finding a legendary for sale.
The concept that specific Legendary weapons have a small chance of dropping from certain boss characters alone takes away from the fun of the game. I'm not very keen on farming the same boss over and over for one particular piece of loot; it might be kind of fun the first 5 times but after that it's going to feel like work. I think the game would be a lot funner if I never had control over the loot I was getting, and where I was getting it. While this was probably done to increase the longevity of the game through loot grinding; I really don't want to remember this game for that.
That being said the introduction of E-tech is a welcome, viable addition to the game. Burning through twice as much ammo for a little more elemental power seems reasonable. Legendary shields, class mods, and grenade mods are definitely a step forward as well, along with relics.
I feel that white-purple shotguns are a LOT less effective at point-blank range than they were in BL1, and this is especially noticable in True Vault Hunter Mode. If I didn't have the Conference call I'd be in a world of hurt right now... though 14 rounds is nothing compared to potentially having 50+ rounds in your shotgun in BL1.
Same goes for white-purple SMGs. I think SMGs have taken too big of a damage compensation compared to rifles and pistols. They don't even mitigate this through a higher fire rate or the ability to fire multiple rounds at once like they did in BL1. Simply having a large bandolier doesn't make these guns viable. Unless you're a Siren using a Cat class mod, ignore these guns unless you either get an E-tech or a Legendary. Come to think of it I've been having a hard time finding a weapon that naturally fires more than 10 RPS; thanks to Vladof those things were everywhere in BL1. Throw on a 50% fire rate boost with the heavy gunner mod, and you were pretty much manning a minigun.
Crawmerax was a better raid boss than Terramorphus and Vermivorous IMO. With Crawmerax you had to kite him around the arena until you and your buddies nailed every critical spot on his body. If one of his minions took you down you needed the right elemental weapon to blast its face off and continue on. With Terry the best legit strategy is to hide behind a rock and shoot at it. It probably wasn't the designers' intention for that to happen, but it's still there. Vermi is even worse considering how you have to bunker down with the limited areas with overhead cover to at least have a fighting chance against him. It's still more engaging than sitting behind a rock, but also more annoying since he doesn't have minions for you to leech off of when you go down.
I have no thoughts on Seraph Crystals in the Capt. Scarlett DLC, but there is something unsettling about the ability to just purchase really good pink-rarity weapons.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jan 13, 2013 8:59:50 GMT -5
That vid is pretty spot-on in hindsight
Borderlands is pretty good in some parts, but I'm not really interested in it anymore. Once the shine of getting new abilities and filling up the skill trees wears off, there's not much to the combat anymore
Enemies don't get progressively smarter, with interesting abilities. They just get more health and more damage, slowing the pace down, which is stupid since the game is supposed to be about badass abilites. And if you do die, the fight for your life mechanic pretty much garantuees you'll stand up again. Except when that last enemy hides behind cover, so that deaths actually end up feeling cheap. They should probably get rid of the mechanic entirely because of that. Deaths will always end up feeling cheap.
The actual weapon variety is pretty low. There aren't really a lot of guns that aren't done before. It stays close to the pretty standard assault rifle + shotgun + smg + sniper rifle build all modern shooters have, and just stylizes them
And there's some pretty good humour, but all the meme references are grating yeah
So yeah. It's a good game, but it'd like to see it get crazier with the stuff it gives you while providing more of a challenge, though that's probably an impossible thing to ask
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