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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 8, 2012 13:12:46 GMT -5
We here on Den have traditionally not listed or discussed shotgun TTK, preferring instead to simplify it as being just zero, much as with snipers. However, unlike snipers, shotguns cannot consistently obtain one shot kills even with perfect use and thus they do, in theory (and most certainly in practice), possess TTKs. Work here has been done before, namely by timeitself, but I’m trying to be a little more comprehensive. To calculate these, I make two assumptions. First, the target enemy has an area of 842 square units, based on a guesstimate that the player is about 72 units tall and 12 units wide. This is just a constant and if someone (marvel, I’m looking at you) has a more accurate number, I can sub it in. More importantly, this premise assumes that the target has all of his area exposed to the player (i.e. is perfectly parallel and has no cover). Second, that pellet distribution is even across the cone of fire. This is a huge assumption as it is most definitely not true in practice. However, when calculating TTK for normal weapons we also make a huge assumption: that the player is one hundred percent accurate. This is the same principle, but applied to shotguns. Taking these into account, I have generated this spreadsheet. There are still some kinks to work out, but the groundwork is done and the numbers are of some use. The spreadsheet has three main areas. -Range of x pellets to kill shows the range at which the shotgun will kill in x pellets. This is equivalent to range of x hits to kill for traditional weapons. -Range of x shots to kill shows the theoretical range of a one shot kill, a two shot kill, and so forth. -TTK by x shots to kill then shows the TTK of an x shot kill. You may notice that the numbers in the spreadsheet are quite high: these are theoretical kill ranges for the shotguns and there are a number of reasons why they are reduced in practice. A) The target’s area was reduced (ex. the enemy was not parallel to you, he was behind some cover, or you did not have him properly centered). B) Lag. The target was not properly centered in the host’s view. C) Pellet distribution was uneven. Now that that’s all of the way, we can finally discuss what I wanted to talk about in the first place: shotgun TTKs. Shotgun TTKs suck. They don’t just suck: they are ludicrous and absolutely hilarious in how terrible they are. Unless there is a complete paradigm shift in Call of Duty shotgun design, shotguns will always be uncompetitive and purely humiliation weapons.On Den, we have known this by merely glancing at the stats and from personal experience. This spreadsheet, however, quantifies the actually kill ranges and subsequent TTKs of the shotguns. At even moderate ranges (and moderate for a shotgun!), shotguns possess abysmal TTKs. MW2 featured the overall strongest shotguns in the series…which were secondaries, which is probably the only means to balance the current shotgun design. In MW2 and BO, SMGs generally lose one shot to kill at around 875 units and ARs at 1800 units. In MW3, these are about 650 and 1300 units respectively. Within these ranges, these weapons typically have TTKs in the range of 0.200 s, with some going much lower (particularly in MW2, although the Type 95 and PP90 sport some absurd kill times). …in contrast, the MW3 Spas with base stats is a zero second kill up to 493 units and then transitions from a one second kill to a three second kill up to 700 units. Three seconds. At 700 units. Where virtually all guns will kill in 0.200 seconds, a difference of fifteen fold. Granted, this analysis dramatically favors higher fire rates (manual actions have atrocious damage per second, hence why they score poorly by this metric), but even faster semi autos are uncompetitive in this perfect, idealized environment. The base Striker becomes a two shot kill taking 0.170 s at 411 u, which is kind of okay, I guess, but then becomes a three shot kill taking 0.341 s at 530 u, which is shit. (The irony here being that the pre-patch MW3 Striker with Specialist could one shot up to 750 units. Which is legit beastin’. The MW2 Spas couldn’t do that in any configuration.) In light of these numbers, the BO shotguns were not really that bad…compared to other shotguns. Their ADS stats are comparable to shotguns that have variations of SP and SA…so they would have been competitive in other Call of Duties if imported straight. In Black Ops, the Stakeout and HS10 can operate at maximum efficiency without any perks (although Sleight of Hand is probably a really good idea, they don’t need it like other shotguns do). When BO2 comes out, I can add them to the chart and we can see truly how much they suck, both compared to historical shotguns and to other weapons in that game. I’m hoping that the trend seen in BO1 where shotgun effectiveness increases dramatically upon ADSing will continue (and would explain the dismal performance seen in footage so far). Regardless, these numbers show how truly uncompetitive shotguns are: they require immense range and map control to use well that no other weapon class demands. Encountering an enemy in even the two shot kill range for most shotguns (about 400-600 units for most) dramatically favors an opponent using any other weapon. Encountering an enemy after the pellet range infinitely favors that enemy. At the edge of the pellet range, most shotguns have hilariously bad TTKs: this is a great argument for removing the maximum pellet range. Even if shotguns had infinite range, they would take several magazines to kill at any respectable distance. The MW2 Masterkey is a great example of this: with SP and SA, it takes 8 shots to kill at 1,285 u and would take 5.385 s to do so…without accounting for reload times. If anything, giving shotguns infinite range would make it harder for the uninformed to use them by merit of how bad they would be in their new range. Players currently can tell if they are outside the pellet range by merit of hitmarkers. With infinite range, shotguns would produce hitmarkers from ranges where it would take several seconds to kill the target possibly deluding players into thinking it is remotely possible to kill the target from that range. Penny for your thoughts. Nickel for spotting typos in the spreadsheet (there’s a ton).
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Post by jaedrik on Oct 8, 2012 13:34:53 GMT -5
I say just make them so 'realistic' while keeping the 'arcade game' feel of CoD to the point that they have very tight spread and do massive amounts of damage over a very large range, just like in real life, while still keeping that 'arcadey' feel! On a slightly more serious note, I agree that something should be fundamentally changed with the design of shotguns. I am still, after such a long time, rather fond of BO's Stakeout, and I know it was not as good but MW2's Striker also holds that place in my heart. I wish I could offer something more to this discussion, but I can't, so I'll just say that your post was a nice condensation of otherwise somewhat spread out facts, thank you.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 8, 2012 13:39:27 GMT -5
Thoughts on fixing shotguns (besides the obvious of increasing damage, range, and pellet count):
- Even pellet distribution. Make the shotguns shoot the same pellet pattern all the time, every time. Some shooters (ex. Gears of War) already do do this. This would be the best solution, but involves the most effort by developers.
- Increase pellet count while compensating with lower damage. A shotgun that fires 16 pellets at 25 damage should be more consistent than a shotgun that fires 8 pellets at 50 damage: by merit of more pellets, it should probabilistically obtain a more even pellet distribution.
- Increase pellet count while compensating with higher spread. A shotgun that does 100 damage per pellet and fires 36 pellets would statistically be the same strength as the MW2 Spas with SP…with 15 spread (i.e. sniper spread). Increasing pellet count while increasing spread makes the shotguns easier to use: the target has to occupy a smaller percentage of the weapon spread for a kill. Akimbo shotguns are overall easier to use (yes, even the HS10s) because they generally require such a smaller part of the spread to be occupied by the target (the akimbo Rangers with SP require only 9% of the spread to be occupied for a one shot kill).
This takes that principle and expands it. If you double the area of the spread, you can double the pellet count. It is now easier to hit targets, but more importantly, the larger cone of fire will be more resistant to lag. Because the cone is larger, it is more probable that the target is actually inside of the cone, even if his exact position deviates from your view.
Because spread area increases exponentially with spread degrees, pellet count must, too, increase exponentially. SMGs, ARs, LMGs, and snipers have spreads of 5, 7, 10, and 15. Each of these steps roughly corresponds to twice the area of the former (25, 49, 100, and 225). If we assume a standard shotgun spread of 5, we must double pellet count when going to AR spread and then double it again when going to LMG spread. The last option would give us 36 pellets on an 8 pellet scale.
- Provide dramatic spread reductions when sighted. The Stakeout is a step in the right direction for this. Its 3 spread when sighted is a 544% increase in accuracy over its nominal hipspread of 7, but we can go even farther. How cool would it be for an ACOG to be a viable attachment on a shotgun? Shotguns should operate on the same principle as all other weapons: hip fire at close range and ADS at long range, with the difference being what constitutes those ranges.
This can be combined with the previous idea of increasing spread size: the spread reduction need only be proportional. For example, a Stakeout with doubled spread size would have spread stats of 4.2 and 10.
- Same mobility as SMGs when sighted. In CoD4, the W1200 had 100% mobility when sighted and the M1014 had 50%. All shotguns since have one or the other depending on which gun they were copied from, up to the release of MW3, which standardized this at 40%. Because they are exclusively close quarters weapons, shotguns should not be penalized for ADS movement, much like SMGs are not. In MW3, SMGs do receive a penalty to ADS movement due to the presence of Stalker, in which case, shotguns should match SMGs.
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 8, 2012 13:41:08 GMT -5
They propably won't increase the amount of pellets so dramatically. I think the engine would die ro something. They already said that AA-12 kicks the crap out of it.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 8, 2012 13:47:11 GMT -5
They propably won't increase the amount of pellets so dramatically. I think the engine would die ro something. They already said that AA-12 kicks the crap out of it. Robert Bowling also said that the CM901 is a great gun. Fun starts at 2:00. Tell me again that the engine can't handle the pellets. For reference, the Ranger fires at 6666 RPM, giving us 1,333.2 pellets per second in that video. A full auto shotgun shooting 36 pellets at 600 RPM would put out 360 pellets per second, in comparison. The issue is that, while theyre underpowered, a lot of people still find them overpowered. So they can't affprd to buff them IW had no problem buffing the fuck out of sniper rifles. If kids can't evalulate properly balanced weapons properly, the short answer is too bad. I sincerely hope league play improves weapon balance. If anyone comments on weapon balance and isn't even in the 50th percentile of players, we can immediately discard his opinion. Conversely, Treyarch can look at the top 1% of players and immediately see that no one, absolutely no one, is using a shotgun and know that there's a problem.
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 8, 2012 14:09:21 GMT -5
I think I have a verse that sums up my thoughs about that video "Your mind is naked along the first gate to the world of magic What's up, man? Hocus-Pocus, Hankey-pankey. Already spellbound?" At least that's how I felt seeing that. Then again, you shouldn't trust anything IW says, so points too you.
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 8, 2012 14:17:19 GMT -5
It WAS a secondary, after all. IMO if shotguns are as good as the Spas-12 they deserve their place as a primary. But I certainly wouldn't mind to have a Sniper Posing As Shotguns-12 in my secondary spot.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 8, 2012 14:26:25 GMT -5
...but if it were a primary, the MW2 Spas would still be criminally underpowered. It was balanced entirely by merit of being a secondary.
With SP, it stopped being a one shot kill after 600 units. In MW2, that was extreme CQC. A one second kill at 600 units is incredibly weak for a primary, but just right for a secondary.
The closest thing this series has ever seen to a true primary shotgun was the pre-patch MW3 Striker, which could one shot up to 750 units and had a fire time of 0.178 s, giving it a competitive TTK even if the first shot failed to kill. A pump action designed to the same level of efficacy would be gnarly indeed.
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Post by wg4f on Oct 8, 2012 14:29:31 GMT -5
I can understand someone saying that the pump action shotguns aren't good enough, but guns like the Usas/ Striker/ Spas12/ (Blops version) don't make sense to complain about. They're amazing on small maps.
There's not really a lot of ways for them to balance shotguns to be good on large maps without making them too good for crowded maps.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 8, 2012 14:31:25 GMT -5
There's not really a lot of ways for them to balance shotguns to be good on large maps without making them too good for crowded maps. SMGs are god in CQC maps and good in large maps. If an SMG is good in CQC, then a shotgun should be better. And CoD tends to has beast SMGs.
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 8, 2012 14:33:32 GMT -5
Striker with Extended Mags and Specialist bonus... awww yeah!
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Post by wg4f on Oct 8, 2012 14:38:46 GMT -5
SMGs are god in CQC maps and good in large maps. If an SMG is good in CQC, then a shotgun should be better. And CoD tend to has beast SMGs. Your spreadsheet shows they already are better in CQC Good job on it btw. It's nice having them all together like that
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Oct 8, 2012 14:57:03 GMT -5
MW2 Shotguns were incredible. IMO, they would be excellent as primaries, if there are good mid range secondaries available (Revolvers, Handguns, Rafficas). Also, the fully removal of easy quickscoping. Shotguns should be unbeatable at close range, with each of them having a niche.
Striker is "weak", but capable of killing in two hits fairly easy and big magazines allow for long runs, without caring much about reloading.
SPAS-12 is slow, but very strong. Holds the middle ground. Fairly accurate but easily beaten by 2 or more enemies.
M1014 is a weaker SPAS but more suitable for more than one enemy. What it lacks in range, it has in fire rate.
AA-12 is CQC strong and doesn't require a lot of aiming. Good to breach places especially against nasty campers.
Model 1887 is the best at long range engagements, since the steady aim isn't as necessary as other shotguns for this role. Rewards accurate players... punish the others.
Rangers were the #1 at very close range, but had too little ammo to compete with the AA-12. Regardless, the 1 pellet kill with Stopping Power made it the most consistent shotgun. You couldn't get more than one hitmarker... and even if you did, Akimbo was there for you.
Make those primaries and you got a balanced game. Make that in a game with overkill and the perk is finally good.
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 8, 2012 15:00:46 GMT -5
Wow, AA-12 of MW3 has 250 7 pellet kill. That just shucks.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 8, 2012 15:07:41 GMT -5
The difference being that the spas 12 got far more complaints than the snipers did ever A sniper can one shot kill at any range. The average shotgun can one shot kill up to 500 units and does zero damage past 700. Seems legit. Your spreadsheet shows [shotguns] already are better in CQC Shotguns are infinitely better than any other weapon in CQC. However, once they become two hit kills, every shotgun is worse than every SMG, period. We consider SP and SA when using shotguns, but remember that SMGs and ARs do not require such a specific perk loadout to maintain an acceptable level of effectiveness. When divorced of any perk, shotguns are bad. In BO, no shotgun one shots past 380 units and, in MW3, no shotgun one shots past 500 units. Past these ranges, yes, shotguns are substantially inferior to SMGs. Yes, shotguns have the potential for immense strength, but this comes at the cost of any and all versatility. In contrast, ARs are good at all ranges and pay nothing for it. SMGs are marginally less useful at range, but complete destruction in CQC. There is no meaning for this.
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Brick2urface
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 8, 2012 15:56:00 GMT -5
I just did some real life testing on my 870 with buckshot. I was able to get sub 9 inch diameter grouping at 25 yards with custom load 00 buckshot with flight control wads. If you are wondering that is about .5 degrees of spread. Not to mension maintaining a lethal velocity out to 57 meters.
I always laugh when people say shotguns are only lethal for like 20 feet in real life. Want to stand 21 feet away from me and test it?
Pump shotguns should be lethal in the hands of a skilled player. Bf3 spas with slugs is begining to get it. High skill+spas with slugs = a good time.
For mw3's small maps shotgun range is okay (could definitely be better) but it doesn't have the power in that range that it needs.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 8, 2012 16:07:49 GMT -5
Pump shotguns should be lethal in the hands of a skilled player. Shotguns should be like every other primary: devastating with a skilled player, but still quite useful and viable for even the average player. In the hands of the average player, most weapons are just good guns, but it is a skilled player that milks every bit of effectiveness from the gun. My suggestion of increasing spread while increasing pellet count would make shotguns much easier for the general population to use. If you then give the shotguns comparatively tight spread when ADSed, skilled players can then use their superior aiming abilities to make the weapon even more powerful.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Oct 8, 2012 16:21:31 GMT -5
Lol, give shotguns 100 pellets. Some of them are like that anyway. Just make it 4-2 damage each
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Brick2urface
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 8, 2012 16:31:34 GMT -5
If they fix the spreads then yes increaseing the spread to combat lag effects is a visable option. I think the idea of individual pellets is somewhat flawed. It alows for some fluctuations in performance (small fluctuations is the pellet density is high enough).
I don't particularly care if the shotguns are easy for use in the general population. I do care when there are obvious deficiencies in performance and reliability. There is a point where it could become "too easy" with a large spread. I do want to avoid that. But there is room for improvement in how the shotguns fundamentally function.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 8, 2012 16:50:15 GMT -5
There is a point where it could become "too easy" with a large spread. I do want to avoid that. But there is room for improvement in how the shotguns fundamentally function. I can have a three hit kill 1250 RPM SMG with a 48 round magazine. There is no way to make the shotguns "too easy" to use. Also, shotguns should be unstoppable at point blank. These engagement distances give players the least amount to think and aim: it is in the role of a shotgun to make it exceedingly easy to use in extreme CQC. With my suggestion (extremely loose hip spread, very tight ADS spread), the shotgun is very easy to use up close, but very difficult to use at range. When sighted, it would kill to a great distance, but only if the player is very accurate. The equivalent of 2 spread or less on a Spas would give very little leeway for inaccuracy.
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Post by wg4f on Oct 8, 2012 17:15:25 GMT -5
There is no way to make the shotguns "too easy" to use. Surely you don't actually think that... I can have a three hit kill 1250 RPM SMG with a 48 round magazine. You could also have three hit kill 2000+ PelletPerMinute Shotgun with a 108 Pellet mag.
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 8, 2012 17:23:02 GMT -5
a 1000 RPM 3HK SMG with a 36+ round mag has happened before, but a shotgun that fires more than 12 pellets never has.
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Post by Disgruntled Jigglypuff on Oct 8, 2012 17:28:58 GMT -5
[ I can have a three hit kill 1250 RPM SMG with a 48 round magazine. You could also have three hit kill 2000+ PelletPerMinute Shotgun with a 108 Pellet mag. He was talking about the PP90 Remember, the SPAS is a potential OHK at 60 RPM, at the same time the PP90 is a potential 2HK at 1000 RPM. Flawed logic is flawed. Just because it can happen doesn't mean it will.
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Slick
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Post by Slick on Oct 8, 2012 17:32:06 GMT -5
They propably won't increase the amount of pellets so dramatically. I think the engine would die ro something. They already said that AA-12 kicks the crap out of it. Robert Bowling also said that the CM901 is a great gun. Fun starts at 2:00. Tell me again that the engine can't handle the pellets. For reference, the Ranger fires at 6666 RPM, giving us 1,333.2 pellets per second in that video. A full auto shotgun shooting 36 pellets at 600 RPM would put out 360 pellets per second, in comparison. The issue is that, while theyre underpowered, a lot of people still find them overpowered. So they can't affprd to buff them IW had no problem buffing the Foxtrot out of sniper rifles. If kids can't evalulate properly balanced weapons properly, the short answer is too bad. I sincerely hope league play improves weapon balance. If anyone comments on weapon balance and isn't even in the 50th percentile of players, we can immediately discard his opinion. Conversely, Treyarch can look at the top 1% of players and immediately see that no one, absolutely no one, is using a shotgun and know that there's a problem. lol Damn that's an awesome rebuttal. IW really is full of sh!t, eh?
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Post by wg4f on Oct 8, 2012 17:43:39 GMT -5
You could also have three hit kill 2000+ PelletPerMinute Shotgun with a 108 Pellet mag. Flawed logic is flawed. Just because it can happen doesn't mean it will. He was saying you can use a PP90 RF + Ex mags and I was saying you can also use a Striker Ex mags + Damage. There's nothing that's flawed with what either of us said. We're just stating facts
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 8, 2012 17:46:27 GMT -5
Striker takes at least 3 shots to kill at longer range, unless you are DEAD accurate. Dead, as in he is perfectly between the crosshairs, steady aim, dead on. Knife is better at uber close range, Striker is good at in-between, but after that PP90 rapes it.
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Post by llednik on Oct 8, 2012 18:23:55 GMT -5
a 1000 RPM 3HK SMG with a 36+ round mag has happened before, but a shotgun that fires more than 12 pellets never has. That said, buff the shotguns.
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Post by Disgruntled Jigglypuff on Oct 8, 2012 18:24:49 GMT -5
a 1000 RPM 3HK SMG with a 36+ round mag has happened before, but a shotgun that fires more than 12 pellets never has. That said, buff the shotguns. But it was only on PS3 for two days. Two WHOLE days with a good shotguns...
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 8, 2012 18:26:53 GMT -5
Well, I never saw it.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 8, 2012 18:28:57 GMT -5
There is no way to make the shotguns "too easy" to use. Surely you don't actually think that... Yes. Actually. Given the current paradigms of shotgun designs, you will never see a legitimately overpowered shotgun in Call of Duty. I can have a three hit kill 1250 RPM SMG with a 48 round magazine. You could also have three hit kill 2000+ PelletPerMinute Shotgun with a 108 Pellet mag. The Striker has a fire rate of 352 RPM and the PP90 1250. At the same shots to kill, that gives us TTKs of 0.341 and 0.096. The PP90 kills in less time than the Striker between the ranges of 459 and infinity. I don't see what your point was. But it was only on PS3 for two days. Two WHOLE days with a good shotguns... 13 pellets doesn't change the USAS too much on paper: it does become a 3 hit kill at all ranges, but only slightly extends its one shot range. I'll guess that the primary difference was insane consistency.
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