wittyscorpion
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All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 16:24:23 GMT -5
Second this. Yesterday I had a game that I got spawn killed 3 times on Hijacked. In all cases I was spawned at the very end of the boat, and then immediately killed by the enemy who stood on the platform facing aft. Disagree. At least for Domination. Hijacked is not the typical BO2 map. It's very unique. Most of BO2's maps are employing a hourglass shape, featuring long 'tails', which makes for a ton of difficulty in doing the things you guys are claiming...bad spawns and trapping. So far, the maps have been fairly resistant to traps, spawn logic has been very consistent, and anything, some of the maps openly encourage teams to triple cap (see Overflow) So in that respect, if you liked MW2 and are consistent, you should love BO2. BO2 is even better. It reminds me of some old WaW maps like Seelow. Come think of it: I only have problems with Hijacked, no such issues for other maps I can think of.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 26, 2012 16:29:02 GMT -5
Take overflow again. This has to be one of THE strangest Dom maps ever made. I think our people lost a good bit on it, because it defies all prior CoD tactics, ....it needs to be triple capped. That is the only way to play it. If you aren't trying to triple cap, you will be triple capped. It's that simple. Stop halfway, you are toast. The game flow with that is ridiculously fast. Never seen this before. Most of our clan people still don't understand how strange this map is and what is even going on. I do think this was an experimental map Treyarch slipped in, to see how people would react.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Nov 26, 2012 16:33:09 GMT -5
Real gun skill: semi auto guns that require aiming shot after shot, where recoil is irrelevant as gun recenters fast (let's forget BO1 doo-dooty semi auto AR whatever the name of it was) Do not create an excuse / rationalize that BO2 requires more skill as you have lower performance, it is not a skill-indicator. I suppose that a lot of 2+ kdr guys are 2- now, while A LOT of noobs, that were 0.5 are 0.6 now. That benign increase of kdr of the masses cost stars a lot of kdr. Masses paid $1 billion for the game, stars paid $1 million. Whoooo, let's cool our jets there a bit bro. There's nothing 'star' related bout having a 2.0+ KD ratio. In fact, quite a many of those so called high KD 'superstars' are basically just scrubs who learned long ago that one could join Dom/KC lobbies, not do crap to help the team, just circle the perimeter, and get a good KD ratio. That hardly makes these players good. They're scrubs. They suck. They couldn't spell out win if i spotted them a W and a "I" sorry, I was having PC players performance in mind, 2.0+ is rare here, no idea where on xbox the "star-line" is. In BO2 it is easier to kill more experienced players hipfiring laser-like SMGs. I do not believe it is not on purpose. Activision wants more and more buyers, required skill must go down - NOT UP. Maps must be small, less thinking, more action, fast fun, "COD-McDonalds".
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Post by moyer on Nov 26, 2012 16:35:57 GMT -5
They've done a lot of things to cut the edge that good players have. SBMM, Spray n Pray SMGs, etc. The lag issues also, but that's probably not on purpose.
I do agree though that the perks have changed things somewhat. In previous CODs, I usually had only a stealth class and a standard class plus 1 slot for something fun to mess around with. In this COD, there's a chance that good players will have specialty slots for designed for certain gametypes/maps and also use several slots for specific "counter" type classes because it could really be needed if the other team is all spamming equipment or explosives or UAVs, etc. Only time will tell. One factor that hurts this is in league play, you play mixed games on different maps, so it'd be hard to really have specialty niche classes since you have only so many slots.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Nov 26, 2012 16:37:43 GMT -5
Dumien, why Flak Jacket? I like your class tho. I'm anxious to see if GamingUpgrade`s upcoming XP guide to Black Ops 2 will recommend something like this or no. Alright let us look at the options according to the rest of the class...because admittedly flak jacket is the most tacked on part of the class. 1. A second EMP grenade. The issue here is that one is almost always enough. In addition you have 2 black hat PDAs AND scavenger. This is almost, but not quite, the definition of overkill. 2. Ghost. One of the great things about this class is you are not really concerned about longevity. You have one specific goal. Shut the enemy out of any and all kinds of rewards. Demoralize them. Ghost supports longevity and therefore not this class. In addition, you are running stingers, the UAV's most powerful foe. 3. Blind Eye. Again longevity issues. You don't care if you die with this class. Scavenger is there just to make sure that if you are alive you can keep doing what you want to do without comitting suicide. 4. Hardline. Another longevity perk...but in a different way. I would actually consider using this over flak jacket in that you can shoot down a few things, own some equipments, and then get rewarded faster. It makes sense. However, I think there is a better option 5. Lightweight. The best part about this class is that you don't have to be close to do anything this class was meant to do. You don't even need to be near PEOPLE to do your job. Lightweight loses its purpose. Stinger the enemies. Hack things through walls. Change teammate's care packages. Emp sentrys/guardians. You don't need to get close to do any of that. 6. Flak Jacket. Without exception...all of my classes have a failsafe. They need to be able to play the objective if that is what is being called for at the moment. Here is one important differentiation I need to make...and I see people confuse it all the time... there are two kinds of longevity. There is long term longevity. This is for the purpose of amassing high killstreaks and getting a high KDR. This is supported by hardline, stealth perks, the counter meassure perks like flak/tac mask. The second kind is short term longevity. This is for the purpose of getting the job done, be it the 5 seconds you need to defuse a bomb or the 5 seconds you need to cap a flag. In that sense, the most immediate threats are countered not by stealth perks (because the enemy knows where you are regardless of the perk you are wearing), but by these counter messure perks like tac mask/flak jacket. Flak jacket on this class is a statement to myself and others, that I still have the capabilities to play the objective even if I don't have a class entirely suited for it.
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GoHarvard
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It's not that serious.
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Post by GoHarvard on Nov 26, 2012 16:38:05 GMT -5
Latency > everything.
It's too difficult to determine skill differential between non-casual players when latency is king in determining who wins a face to face encounter, and even a non face to face encounter at times. (read below)
I would be a believer that skill based match making is the reason I don't see many players far south below 1.0 compared to MW3 or BO1 if there wasn't such erratic and often lopsided latency on here.
I'm on Xbox and play TDM which is always the most played mode based on the number of online players it shows for it.
One round I'll go 28-3. The next round, against the same players and with the same host, I'll go something like 15-9 and every kill felt like a chore. I could feel a significant difference in latency compared to the previous round. All the while someone who went overly negative in the previous round is running around in god mode. E.g: He walks past a corner in a reload animation and I empty half a clip into his chest, but end up dying and the kill cam reveals me shooting bullets off to the side which is where his model was on my screen. This scenario is business as usual on here.
My brothers friend plays while high and leaning back on his sofa and has always had a KDR south of 0.8 in previous games. He runs around mindlessly not checking his mini map or his corners. He's a 1.11 on here now and says it's because he thinks he's playing against players with slower reaction times because all the kids haven't got the game for Xmas yet....
I'm a believer that the net code is being used to bridge the gap between the wolves and the sheep. They did take Death Streaks out of the game which were used to help struggling casual players. Would they suddenly stop helping them out completely? I doubt it.
Lag Compensation is Skill Compensation now.
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Post by moyer on Nov 26, 2012 16:40:56 GMT -5
In BO2 it is easier to kill more experienced players hipfiring laser-like SMGs. I do not believe it is not on purpose. Activision wants more and more buyers, required skill must go down. Maps must be small, less thinking, more action, fast fun, "COD-McDonalds". YES. I wish they would've either went full bore skill-based ranked everything (based on W/L) and kept out the hipfire SMG crap. Doing a little of both just sucks.
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wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 16:53:07 GMT -5
2 (unrelated) comments:
1) is SMG hipfire really that powerful? To judge this it is not a good idea to rely on perceptions of how you are killed. To make an analogy, in MW3 I heard plenty of people complaining about being killed by Shotty, but yet Shotty is widely considered UP.
The better way to judge is to compare with yourself. If you are on console, check Elite and see how well you are doing with Laser Sight attachment, both from KDR point of view and accuracy point of view. I have been content with my MP7 Laser Sight hip spray style until I found out that my KDR with that is a horrible 0.67. I started using QD instead to force myself to ADS more and the result is significant improvement.
2) Regarding lag: can bros who played Leagues extensively comment on whether the experience is better or worse there?
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wwaa
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PC / PS4 / X1
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Post by wwaa on Nov 26, 2012 16:54:45 GMT -5
my highest scoring class atm looks a little something like this... PDW Long Barrel Laser Stinger EMP Tactician Black Hat Black Hat Engineer Scavenger Flak Jacket Pick 11 ?
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wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 16:57:05 GMT -5
my highest scoring class atm looks a little something like this... PDW Long Barrel Laser Stinger EMP Tactician Black Hat Black Hat Engineer Scavenger Flak Jacket Pick 11 ? Probably just 1 Black Hat. The Scavenger gives you the illusion of > 1 :-)
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wwaa
True Bro
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Post by wwaa on Nov 26, 2012 17:00:00 GMT -5
I'd get rid of long barrell, PDW is strong enough.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Nov 26, 2012 17:00:41 GMT -5
yeah I think I used it with 1 attachment. That was my mistake. Sorry guys.
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asasa
True Bro
fuck
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Post by asasa on Nov 26, 2012 17:01:00 GMT -5
Id drop the tactician and emp. Not worth 2 points for just a single tactical grenade.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 26, 2012 17:01:16 GMT -5
2 (unrelated) comments: 1) is SMG hipfire really that powerful? To judge this it is not a good idea to rely on perceptions of how you are killed. To make an analogy, in MW3 I heard plenty of people complaining about being killed by Shotty, but yet Shotty is widely considered UP. The better way to judge is to compare with yourself. If you are on console, check Elite and see how well you are doing with Laser Sight attachment, both from KDR point of view and accuracy point of view. I have been content with my MP7 Laser Sight hip spray style until I found out that my KDR with that is a horrible 0.67. I started using QD instead to force myself to ADS more and the result is significant improvement. 2) Regarding lag: can bros who played Leagues extensively comment on whether the experience is better or worse there? I played it twice, two different accounts. I saw no noticeable improvement in the quality of the play. If anything, i am finding better competition, closer matches in the regular lobbies.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Nov 26, 2012 17:02:26 GMT -5
Id drop the tactician and emp. Not worth 2 points for just a single tactical grenade. emp is necessary for the role I am looking at. Black hat takes too long to take down sentry's guardians.
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wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 26, 2012 17:02:50 GMT -5
Id drop the tactician and emp. Not worth 2 points for just a single tactical grenade. Keep in mind that he has Scavenger, coupled with SMG's focus on CQC = unlimited number of EMP + Blackhat... I personally feel that EMP is more necessary than Black Hat. On my "engineer" class I have 2 EMP and 1 Black Hat (until I unlock Scavenger)
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Dumien
True Bro
Black Market Trader
No engrams. Only disappointment.
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Post by Dumien on Nov 26, 2012 17:07:09 GMT -5
yeah I was running that until I found out that a truly skilled, informed, and dedicated player could indefinitely protect his sentry/guardian by constantly throwing down trophies which stop emp grenades.
This numeration stops that possibility...
however yes...emp grenades are generally much much more powerful...my situation is a niche situation that I have only run across once.
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Post by Broadband on Nov 26, 2012 22:39:32 GMT -5
Sound whoring is cheap? Facepalm do you even back up your arguments? Wait do you even have this game? I think he meant in general sound whoring is cheap. Did you bother to read my other post? Here, I'll save you the time: By that same stretch, making your footsteps silent so you're immune to sound whores is cheap too, right? Because you can hear people without Dead Silence, but they cannot hear you.
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Post by seanbateman on Nov 27, 2012 1:49:26 GMT -5
This game is not more skill based at all. I actually I'm really disappointed in Treyarch. This game seriously takes less gun skill than MW3, I"m not sure how they accomplished that but they did. This game is really bad.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 28, 2012 11:28:48 GMT -5
It's interesting that this thread is 52 posts long without anyone stopping to define what "skill-based" means. I would say that a game is more "skill-based" than another if a skilled player wins more frequently, all other significant factors being the same (most notably how frequently they play in a party). However, no one has yet mentioned their W/L.
This, of course, raises the question of what makes a player skilled. This is where I suspect there is a lot of the disagreement.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 28, 2012 11:45:41 GMT -5
You said: that being said, I do agree that it's more skill based in the sense that the game takes pressure off of strategy by impeding the success of older methods (spawntraps, tactical loitering, etc) That's not a definition of "skill-based", unless your definition is that a game is more "skill-based" than a previous game if it makes the old methods of success more difficult, which "takes pressure off of strategy". I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were not defining something as more "skill-based" if it requires less strategy.
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Dumien
True Bro
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Post by Dumien on Nov 28, 2012 12:08:41 GMT -5
Skill is a general term. There are many different kinds of skills. Planning, information gathering, physical skills, application of game knowledge, teamwork, etc, etc, etc. People are skilled in different ways.
The point is...there are too many skills to count. It is generally the sum of those skills applied to the game that we recognize as the general term "skill."
Then of course people debate over the correct application of the sum of these skills...be it having a high W/L, K/D, or SPM. Just because a player might be misapplying these skills according to some sort of held belief does not mean that the player is not skilled. Unless of course... you feel like arguing that this application of the sum of your skills is in fact a skill, and not part of some preconceived notion about how CoD works or part of the way you enjoy the game. That would be tricky though.
^my philosophy (if you want to call it that) of skill^
Edit: So, a skill based game according to this definition would be one that takes into account that incredibly large amount of available skills and brings them some equality. Some skills will always be more powerful than other. However, if you skills incline you as a player to be on the move more than a person whose skills incline them to move much less, there should be a balance there. Of course that is just one hot button issue, but there are others and I think this game is doing a great job of balancing in that sense.
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Post by beer0clock on Nov 28, 2012 16:06:44 GMT -5
My definition for this post - A game is more skill based if the cause of the outcome is more reliant on intentional player action than random chance or unintentional actions.
Based on the Pick 10 , I would say that increases required skill - as there is a large breadth of intentional player action involved in class selection. These actions lead to the outcome. In previous COD's where there was less variety, that was less intentional player action.
ScoreStreaks - This complexity of the scoring system seems to offer a much greater variety of tactics to gain score, as opposed to just getting kills. This system seems to encompass everything skillfull about the killstreak system, but incorporating many more options - increasing the possible intentional player action. The only thing that might be less skill based here is if they are priced "too high", they are out of everyone's reach and play less of a factor, decreasing intentional player possibilities. I think a significant portion of players have experienced this.
Gunplay - With faster handling speeds, players can react to enemies faster. This makes positioning less important, and reaction / controller skills more important. Positioning still gives an advantage, so that is encompassed, but it is not as powerful. I would argue that the increased power of reflexes and controller skills opens up more possibilities based on how quick and precise you are, opening up more possible intentional player action. I'm not sure if the recoil itself makes anything more or less skill-based than previous games, but certainly having more viable weapon selections with different recoil patterns seems as if it opens up the possibilities - and thus different micro skills to master - more than using just a few OP guns. The recoil itself is not as "random" as BO1, and not as minimal/precise as MW3 - jury is still out there for me.
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Post by RageHulkSmash on Nov 30, 2012 4:15:15 GMT -5
I was watching a youtube star (xcalizorz) and he mentioned something that caught my interest. He said BO2 feels a lot more like halo than previous CoD games. In most 1v2 encounters, it feels a lot tougher to survive and kill them both. Also, hipfire seems so strong, especially on these small maps.
It got me thinking that they made BO2 more team-oriented, especially compared to MW3. It's nearly impossible to be that guy that can counter everything that's thrown at him with this pick 10 system. Between the powerful perks, proficiencies and specialist, an MW3 player felt like a legend.
I'll list an example custom class from mw3 and see how it would look in BO2 if the pick 10 system allowed it.
ACR w/ Silencer + Ex Mag FMG w/ Akimbo SoH Pro, Assassin Pro, Stalker Pro Bouncing Betty, 2x Flash Nade Specialist
Pre specialist, here's the amount of points needed from the pick 10 system (excluding attachment/perk limitations and wildcard costs).
AN-94 w/ Silencer, Ex Mag, Stock, Fast Mag, Laser Sight (6 points) KAP-40 w/ Akimbo, Ex Mag, Fast Mag, Laser Sight (5 points) Ghost, Fast Hands, Coldblooded, Hardwired (4 points) Bouncing Betty, 2x Flash Nade (3 points) 3x Scorestreaks
So you would need up to 18 points in the pick 10 system to match a MW3 loadout. This is excluding attachment limitations, wildcard costs and full specialist bonus, which skews it more in favor of MW3 at the cost of 3 scorestreaks from BO2. I'm sure there are other MW3 loadouts that would require more points from BO2 equivalents but this is just a quick example.
Important to note, there is no ACR-caliber weapon in BO2. This drives my original statement in that this game requires a lot more team skill rather than individual skill. Each individual player is limited so strictly by pick 10, they need teammates to help cover their weaknesses.
I've always been the lone wolf player in CoD. In MW3, my wlr was nearly identical to my kdr (I mostly played KC and some TDM). In BO2, I've been having a hell of a time keeping my wlr well above 1.0 playing my lone wolf style.
This is just what I noticed so far from my experiences. Does anyone else feel this way? Is the complete opposite happening? Is BO2 exactly like the other CoD games in this aspect? Let me know (god I sound like a youtube commentator now).
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