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Post by snakex on Jul 5, 2010 19:45:17 GMT -5
Nothing needs Stopping Power. on MLG u need it (exclude the UMP) |
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Post by tplazarno on Jul 6, 2010 0:30:35 GMT -5
The spas will be great without stopping power. But if it is a knife distance encounter and you shoot instead of knife, you will probably die.
If I had to use a close range weapon to go with the FAL, I would probably use akimbo pp2000s or m93s with steady aim. But if you aren't using steady aim, I would use akimbo G18s or magnums. I always like them more because you don't have to worry as much about range.
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Post by ParaGoombaSlayer on Jul 6, 2010 20:35:48 GMT -5
M1014 if you aren't using Stopping Power, SPAS-12 if you are.
If I'm using the SPAS, I don't want hit markers. If I get a hit marker with the M1014, I can just quickly fire off another shot. Can't do that with the SPAS.
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Post by chyros on Jul 7, 2010 10:03:26 GMT -5
M1014 if you aren't using Stopping Power, SPAS-12 if you are. If I'm using the SPAS, I don't want hit markers. If I get a hit marker with the M1014, I can just quickly fire off another shot. Can't do that with the SPAS. Well, this. Exactly this. |
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dog
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Post by dog on Jul 7, 2010 11:32:14 GMT -5
Nothing needs Stopping Power. In Soviet Russia, Stopping Power needs you. |
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Post by pooneega on Jul 7, 2010 11:36:14 GMT -5
M1014 if you aren't using Stopping Power, SPAS-12 if you are. If I'm using the SPAS, I don't want hit markers. If I get a hit marker with the M1014, I can just quickly fire off another shot. Can't do that with the SPAS. Well, this. Exactly this. Took the words out my mouth. SPAS 12 is fine without stopping power. SPAS 12 is EFFING AMAZING with it. |
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xeros612
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Post by xeros612 on Jul 7, 2010 15:32:47 GMT -5
I say use a pistol, [...], it swaps fast and it means whichever gun you are using it's semi auto so it feels similar. THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. While pistols are easily outclassed by other secondaries and the almighty nuclear knife, the extra swap speed plus good trigger finger speed will save you in CQC many a time, like the good old days of WaW and earlier. As for the SP, do any guns besides the Vector really need it? It's such a waste considering there's no counter to it, and unbalanced due to that, but that's beside the point. All it'll do is increase your chances of a OSK at ranges closer to the SPAS's max range, so you may as well keep hardline and/or grab yourself a sidearm. |
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niteshadex
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Post by niteshadex on Jul 8, 2010 4:17:36 GMT -5
I say use a pistol, [...], it swaps fast and it means whichever gun you are using it's semi auto so it feels similar. THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. While pistols are easily outclassed by other secondaries and the almighty nuclear knife, the extra swap speed plus good trigger finger speed will save you in CQC many a time, like the good old days of WaW and earlier. Imo, MP and Shotguns outclass Pistols in all meaningful ways. I never encounter situations where I empty my weapon and switch to my secondary. If I'm going CQB, I just switch to my secondary.As for the SP, do any guns besides the Vector really need it? It's such a waste considering there's no counter to it, and unbalanced due to that, but that's beside the point. All it'll do is increase your chances of a OSK at ranges closer to the SPAS's max range, so you may as well keep hardline and/or grab yourself a sidearm. All weapons benefit from Stopping power, some just beefit more than others. Any 40-30 rifle is much better off with stopping power, going from 3HK to 2HK is a bigger difference than 4HK to 3HK, if its gonna take 4 bullets, if the first 3 connect, odds are they are viewkicked so bad they wont be able to return accurate fire and are yours for the taking. Unless its close range, because of ultra knife. As for shotguns, the Semi autos and AA12 basically dont need stopping power, as you will fire until the enemy dies |
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Post by roguehunter on Jul 8, 2010 17:13:59 GMT -5
i sincerely wish this were true. in practice though, you got the first part of it right (the pistols are easily outclassed by shotguns/machine pistols), the primaries are so strong, and the handguns so weak. plus, the raffica (single or akimbo) can basically do the usp/m9 role much better anyway.
it all depends on how you define 'need'. based on a strict definition, obviously no gun 'needs' stopping power in the game. however, if by need, you really mean 'greatly benefits from', obviously many options apply. again, it seems like you have some grasp of the situation since you correctly point out that there's no counter and unbalanced.
some primaries (TAR, M16 holo, many others) are ridiculously strong with stopping power. sure you can use the TAR for example without it...... but why would you want to? Going from a 3 hit kill to 2 hit kill is a ridiculously strong (and overpowered) buff.
the same general principle applies to the secondaries. I'll give 3 examples.
Spas-12 - one hit kills out to very far range (for a shotgun) and has an effectively limitless magazine (16 with extended mags, 1-2 hit kills, do the math...)
PP2K - SMG benefits, 2 hit kill, lowish recoil, ROF lower than MP5k but higher than UMP, fast reload and drop times.
Single raffica - like the handgun, gets the quickdraw advantage, albeit with a slightly longer raise time. However, you can burst at 900rpm, 30 round mag, low recoil in the context that it takes the role of a handgun, etc.
A hardline magnum (or akimbo magnums), while they have their place, just can't compete with the above options. You can argue that the balance of the game is silly, but it is what it is.
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Post by roguehunter on Jul 8, 2010 17:17:42 GMT -5
example of a place where akimbo magnums have a nice niche: hiding behind a shield with danger close/cold blooded/whatever, no other gun besides the akimbo magnums or akimbo deagles can really fill that role.
another that i used for a while was a cold blooded, thermal wa2000 class with akimbo magnum secondary.
marathon/lightweight magnum tac knife is another example.
in the vast majority of situations i stand by what is written above, however.
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Post by chyros on Jul 8, 2010 18:58:54 GMT -5
I say use a pistol, [...], it swaps fast and it means whichever gun you are using it's semi auto so it feels similar. THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. While pistols are easily outclassed by other secondaries and the almighty nuclear knife, the extra swap speed plus good trigger finger speed will save you in CQC many a time, like the good old days of WaW and earlier. Just use a raffica, it has quick swap too. There really is no excuse for ever using a pistol unless you're a knife runner, in which case you should use a tac knife. Using any pistol without a tac knife is not viable under any circumstance. |
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 8, 2010 23:59:45 GMT -5
A magnum is way better then raffie without sp
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Jul 9, 2010 0:17:17 GMT -5
Raffica is way better at even a little range than the Magnum without SP. Once the Magnum has to shoot a third shot it's way weaker. (about 11 meters per snakex's chart) Mag size is also a note here.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 9, 2010 5:22:23 GMT -5
close range --> magnum kills faster (I can get two bullets to hit, whenever I choose to pull the trigger, not when the rafica decides to give me those extra two bullets per pull. ppl think all those bullets hit often, but they really dont. magnum is way better against non stationairy targets, and you get a free tac-knife for it (what else would you want) though I get 1 knife kill in 10 games max  . other then that, I think the magnum kills faster up close then the raffie, and one missing bullet is easily happend with the raffie. medium range --> magnum kills in three shots, raffie in two burst (if your lucky) I cant say the raffie is really better. other then that, I always run with my WA out when I use that class, so that little more swap time makes a BIG difference! if you use a cold blooded sniper (WA), use a decent secondairy and use it as your primairy in CQB (shotgun, pp2K,G18's), or use a deagle/magnum and use your sniper to walk with. The raffie does everything fairly well, but not good enough for both of these roles without SP. heck, when 2 guys meat with both snipers in hand, the rafie dude is probably dead before he can shoot his raffie... I am not saying the raffie is worthless. it is verry good. but it is not better then magnums/deagle in EVERY situation... |
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Post by chyros on Jul 9, 2010 5:59:03 GMT -5
A magnum is way better then raffie without sp No. Short range = 1BK > 2 magnum shots Medium/long range = 2BK with 0 recoil > 3 magnum shots QED |
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 9, 2010 6:24:24 GMT -5
short range = 1 BK !! IF YOU HIT ALL BULLETS !!
on a moving target on close ranges, you wont
the faster quickdrop also helps.
really, my secondairy weapon next to my WA+ thermal + SOH + CB + any have been a BIG problem for me. It is the hardest class discision I had to make, and have been thinking about it for to much time I dare to admid. after all this time I got to the conclusion the magnum is better next to it.
Do you play much with the raffie chyros? because it doesn't seem that way. 1BK on close range are pretty rare, because they are pretty rare with an M16 already, WITH SP!! you want to use a weapon as secondairy for close range, wich is weaker then the M16/famas (shorter 40 dmg, no SP). but M16/famas users advice using a secondairy for CQC....
and what is QED?
p.s. you play on PC and I play on Xbox, that is a pretty big difference!!!
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Post by zuluzuluzulu on Jul 9, 2010 10:25:42 GMT -5
Anyone care to comment on a semi-related rumor I heard that the spas raises faster with grip?
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Post by roguehunter on Jul 9, 2010 14:02:08 GMT -5
this is absolutely not true. 1 burst kills are very common (expected) with the m16 if you have good aim.
the raffie is a bit more complicated. it has more recoil, no zoom, and less aim-assist range. i still get a fair amount of 1 burst kills with stopping power in cqb, but in fairness i don't use it all that often and when i do, it's almost always with stopping power. i'll have to try it more on classes without it, but that's fairly difficult because, from a practical standpoint, lightweight, cold-blooded, and DC classes tend to have CQB or explosive/oma secondaries. to me, the raffie makes the most sense as a quickdraw/backup secondary on classes that already have a good all-around primary (stopping power AK-47, for example). even then it's debatable.
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Post by roguehunter on Jul 9, 2010 14:02:44 GMT -5
Anyone care to comment on a semi-related rumor I heard that the spas raises faster with grip? i'm pretty sure this was debunked a while ago but i'm not positive and can't find the link. |
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xeros612
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Post by xeros612 on Jul 9, 2010 18:18:46 GMT -5
That's the "need" I was referring to, yes. As for standard pistol vs. Raffica, the pistols are more forgiving if you miss a shot because it's significantly faster to get another shot off if you're off target instead of waiting for the burst cycle to go through(provided you're playing legit, not using some jitter mag due to your incompetence[the "you" being hypothetical, of course]), and if you miss the burst for whatever reason, it's entirely likely that you'll die before the next burst is ready, especially if you're up against a hero with his godly knife, though granted if you're against a knife hero and you don't knife first with commando you'd probably die anyways. |
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Post by avemcree on Jul 10, 2010 2:03:08 GMT -5
another penis swinging contest I see
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Post by chyros on Jul 10, 2010 6:01:29 GMT -5
short range = 1 BK !! IF YOU HIT ALL BULLETS !! on a moving target on close ranges, you wont the faster quickdrop also helps. really, my secondairy weapon next to my WA+ thermal + SOH + CB + any have been a BIG problem for me. It is the hardest class discision I had to make, and have been thinking about it for to much time I dare to admid. after all this time I got to the conclusion the magnum is better next to it. Do you play much with the raffie chyros? because it doesn't seem that way. 1BK on close range are pretty rare, because they are pretty rare with an M16 already, WITH SP!! you want to use a weapon as secondairy for close range, wich is weaker then the M16/famas (shorter 40 dmg, no SP). but M16/famas users advice using a secondairy for CQC.... and what is QED? p.s. you play on PC and I play on Xbox, that is a pretty big difference!!! First time I ever used the Raffie is almost got a nuke straight out, and that was FFA on Rust. Ever since, when I'm not unlocking stuff, I only play with glocks akimbo, raffies and pistols with tac knives as secondaries (or a SPAS if I'm feeling like something else). The Raffie is arguably better than the FAMAS or M16. It has absolutely no recoil, and a small hip spread as well. It also reloads quickly and of course you can swap quickly. Up close, opponents are much bigger and even if you hipfire it's very hard NOT to land all shots on target. I don't think it's much harder for the M16 and FAMAS, tbh. A little, but not much. I'm not really sure how playing on an xbox with built-in aimbot would make it much worse, but I can't tell from experience of course. |
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 10, 2010 11:31:54 GMT -5
lol, that MUST be a difference between PC and Xbox then. because a raffie is NO WAY better then a famas/m16. and the hip spread makes almost no difference between these two.
next to that, we were arguing about magnum + no SP vs raffie + no SP. not that it is better then most guns. because it is.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Jul 10, 2010 13:35:33 GMT -5
I don't know where this Fam16 is worse than M93 came from, but its ain't true on XBOX at least. Aim assist is king. Also M93>Magnum. Always. And I get a lot of kills CQB with burst fire guns. I don't understand why people say that they are completely useless CQB.
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xeros612
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Post by xeros612 on Jul 11, 2010 13:38:05 GMT -5
The Raffie is arguably better than the FAMAS or M16. It has absolutely no recoil, and a small hip spread as well. It also reloads quickly and of course you can swap quickly. Well, before someone hops in with some "consoles has aimbotz!!!!11" argument- Spoke too soon. Anyways, the aim assist range on the raffica is far shorter than the range for the Famas and M16, and unless you've got yourself some of those "FPS Freaks" things, a controller modified to have better analogue sticks, or what have you, you're going to have a tough time lining up a good long range shot with the Raffica, especially without any zoom. |
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Post by chyros on Jul 11, 2010 18:26:53 GMT -5
Well, before someone hops in with some "consoles has aimbotz!!!!11" argument- Spoke too soon. Anyways, the aim assist range on the raffica is far shorter than the range for the Famas and M16, and unless you've got yourself some of those "FPS Freaks" things, a controller modified to have better analogue sticks, or what have you, you're going to have a tough time lining up a good long range shot with the Raffica, especially without any zoom. Ah, I see. Yeah, without auto-aim at longer distances I can imagine it being harder to kill with the Raffica. |
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Post by spifnar on Jul 12, 2010 16:21:54 GMT -5
Back to the original question:
The SPAS without SP is a gamble at longer (10m+) ranges. Yes it can OHK at ranges the M1014 will deal no damage. But without SP (and posibly SA if you like aiming), it's chances of that OHK aren't that good.
The range the SPAS becomes a 4-hit kill without SP is about the same range that the M1014 stops dealing damage (+/- a meter). And getting 4 hits out of 8 is straight luck when the target only fills 1/4 of the circle.
And a little closer in, M1014 when double-tapped has a much larger change of getting the kill (landing 5 hits out of 16 vs 3 out of 8). I've never regretted getting in the habit of double-tapping, given that I don't play ground war
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Post by roguehunter on Jul 13, 2010 0:00:44 GMT -5
short range = 1 BK !! IF YOU HIT ALL BULLETS !! on a moving target on close ranges, you wont the faster quickdrop also helps. really, my secondairy weapon next to my WA+ thermal + SOH + CB + any have been a BIG problem for me. It is the hardest class discision I had to make, and have been thinking about it for to much time I dare to admid. after all this time I got to the conclusion the magnum is better next to it. Do you play much with the raffie chyros? because it doesn't seem that way. 1BK on close range are pretty rare, because they are pretty rare with an M16 already, WITH SP!! you want to use a weapon as secondairy for close range, wich is weaker then the M16/famas (shorter 40 dmg, no SP). but M16/famas users advice using a secondairy for CQC.... and what is QED? p.s. you play on PC and I play on Xbox, that is a pretty big difference!!! First time I ever used the Raffie is almost got a nuke straight out, and that was FFA on Rust. Ever since, when I'm not unlocking stuff, I only play with glocks akimbo, raffies and pistols with tac knives as secondaries (or a SPAS if I'm feeling like something else). The Raffie is arguably better than the FAMAS or M16. It has absolutely no recoil, and a small hip spread as well. It also reloads quickly and of course you can swap quickly. Up close, opponents are much bigger and even if you hipfire it's very hard NOT to land all shots on target. I don't think it's much harder for the M16 and FAMAS, tbh. A little, but not much. I'm not really sure how playing on an xbox with built-in aimbot would make it much worse, but I can't tell from experience of course. speaking from experience on console (xbox360): the raffie is nowhere near as good as the fam16, for a lot of reasons. - less aim assist range - no ADS zoom // worse penetration stats - more recoil - mis-aligned iron sights? - effective loss of an attachment (raffica extended mags would fairly be compared vs m16 holo, famas tube, etc.) the effective result is this: the raffica is a glorified handgun (and in the context of a quickdraw weapon probably a little overpowered), but you'll never see someone running around dominating while using it as a primary. it's just harder to aim on console, especially outside of aim-assist range. also the recoil thing is a big one-- one of the m16 holo's best attributes is that you can easily headhunt people behind cover in 1 burst at just about any range. you just can't do that with the raffie. |
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Jul 13, 2010 0:09:44 GMT -5
I would still put the M93 over the FAMAS recoil wise tho. But M16 Holo is a beast.
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Post by roguehunter on Jul 13, 2010 0:38:32 GMT -5
that's interesting. I always was under the impression that the recoil on the raffie was more like a naked m16 (I'm probably wrong). 100% agreed that the M16 holo is a beast though. it's really pretty silly.
also forgot to point out the range thing. FAMAS > M16 >> Raffica
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