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Post by seanbateman on Nov 9, 2013 16:32:39 GMT -5
Ok, question by someone who knows nothing about this. I have an older 360. I constantly see my FPS dip in the really large maps. If I'm playing online, and I get in a gun fight with someone, is my FPS dipping actually going to affect the fire rate of the actual gun fight, or will it just change the way that I see it on my console?
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Post by I Am Hollywood5 on Nov 11, 2013 20:08:06 GMT -5
I'll add to this a little bit.
Consoles run at a solid 60ps where every frame is displayed for the exact same amount of time. Aside from the current state of Ghosts on the PS4, it is EXTREMELY rare for the frame rate to deviate from 60 fps on consoles. Consoles always have Vsync on, so they do not drop from 60fps to 59 or 58 fps. They drop all the way to 30fps for a very brief moment. With Vsync (again, always on with consoles) the only frame rates that can be displayed are 60, 30, 20, and other constant numbers that are even lower (on consoles at least, there are more variables on PC), so sometimes the frame rate will flip-flop between 60 fps and 30fps, and at 30fps certain weapons RoF will still be exactly the same (although guns that have RoF between 601 and 899 - SC2010, SA805, FAD - will be limited to 600 rpm).
If for some random reason the console GPU cannot finish rendering a frame within 16.6ms (the individual frame time at 60fps) but game will just skip that frame (display the previous frame again instead) and you'll never see it, which will result in a noticeable stutter that disrupts the smoothness of the game. Your gun will probably delay a single bullet which overall has almost no effect on your average RoF when shooting a stream of ~10 bullets (the 750rpm SC2010 ends up at 722rpm while the 857rpm ARX-160 ends up at 737 rpm). Again, this rarely ever happens on consoles.
Any weapon that is programmed to fire between 600 and 719 RPM will end up shooting at 600rpm. Any weapon programmed to fire between 720 and 899 RPM will end up shooting at 720rpm. Any weapon programmed to fire between 900 and 1199 rpm will end up shooting at 920 RPM. This is why Treyarch programs their weapons to fire only at 600, 720, 900, 1200, and 1800 rpm. Apparently IW is still oblivious to the fact the engine they originally modified from the Quake engine ties RoF to frame rate.
Now on PC, things are quite different. Vsync can be turned off and frame rate will be constantly varying, so RPM will always be fluctuating and never 100% steady like it is with Vsync on. However, if you either have a powerful GPU or lower settings enough to run the game over 100fps at all times, you can use a frame rate limiter to manipulate RoF. The game has it's own built-in 91 frame rate limit, and that's because most of the time weapons will have the same RoF at 91 fps as they do at 60fps. But if you use Mousey's chart (or equations) you can set a FPS limit anywhere below that to maximize RoF for certain weapons. For example, if you set a FPS limit at 85fps and configure settings so that you never dip below that number, you can make the ARX-160, FAD, K7, and Vepr shoot at 850rpm, and some of those can go higher still.
Here are some optimal frame rates I've used for various guns:
ARX - 85fps FAD - 88fps K7 - 89fps Vepr - 86fps MTAR - 81fps CBJ-MS - 66fps Honey Badger - 80fps AK-12 - 80fps
At these frame rates the guns will shoot as close as possible to their programmed RoF thus making them competitive again. The ARX-160 was given damage, range, and recoil values to match up with the theoretical 857rpm, at which rate it would be balanced, but since it only shoots at 720rpm in reality, it ends up being under powered when compared to the SC2010 which was balanced around a 750rpm RoF.
If you're a console player, you should stick to the SC2010, SA805, Bizon, and Vector for full-auto ARs/SMGs, because they were all balanced around fire rates there are very close to the real 60fps fire rate. (MTAR-X can be thrown in their too as it's still borderline OP even when firing far below the programmed 810rpm).
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Post by I Am Hollywood5 on Nov 11, 2013 20:32:17 GMT -5
Do you still have a link to Marvel's testing?
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Post by corpsecreate on Nov 11, 2013 22:18:18 GMT -5
I'll add to this a little bit. Consoles run at a solid 60ps where every frame is displayed for the exact same amount of time. Aside from the current state of Ghosts on the PS4, it is EXTREMELY rare for the frame rate to deviate from 60 fps on consoles. Consoles always have Vsync on, so they do not drop from 60fps to 59 or 58 fps. They drop all the way to 30fps for a very brief moment. With Vsync (again, always on with consoles) the only frame rates that can be displayed are 60, 30, 20... False. Consoles drop from 60 very often. Also, the framerate can vary between 0-60 with v-sync. This is because of triple buffering, with double buffering you can only get a framerate that is a multiple of your refresh rate but with triple buffering, anything in between is possible.
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pwn3d
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Post by pwn3d on Nov 12, 2013 3:46:58 GMT -5
I miss my 125fps from BO2 in ghosts... It was very nice to play. A frametime with 125fps is exactly 8ms and nearly all firetimes in BO2 are multiples of 8 resulting in maximum possible RPM for every gun. Best thing: if you cap your fps at 120 in the menu, it's actually 125 because q3 engine can only cap at some specific values (don't know source anymore), it's easy to see when you draw fps that it's 125. Even when your framerate drops to 124 or 123 those are still very good framerates. It even improved your movespeed / jumpheight. In Ghosts it seems there is no real advantage from having 90/91 fps. But ghosts doesn't even support drawing fps
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Post by sixone on Nov 12, 2013 7:36:22 GMT -5
If you're a console player, you should stick to the SC2010, SA805, Bizon, and Vector for full-auto ARs/SMGs, because they were all balanced around fire rates there are very close to the real 60fps fire rate. (MTAR-X can be thrown in their too as it's still borderline OP even when firing far below the programmed 810rpm). You wouldn't include the R5 since its the closest 600-719 AR to 600 @ 639rpm?
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Post by theuberelite on Nov 12, 2013 14:52:42 GMT -5
it's easy to see when you draw fps that it's 125. Even when your framerate drops to 124 or 123 those are still very good framerates. It even improved your movespeed / jumpheight. In Ghosts it seems there is no real advantage from having 90/91 fps. But ghosts doesn't even support drawing fps You can see FPS through Fraps I believe. Also, 125 FPS does not improve movespeed. What certain FPS values do, though, is this: 1) Affect jump height (basically, a gravity calculation) 2) Affect fall damage (again, gravity calculation) 3) Affect fire rate, as explained in OP 4) Affect distance you can move before you make a footstep (by far the most complicated change) Funny thing - 91 FPS is one of the worst values in the game for your fall damage and jump height. At a fall distance of 300, 91 FPS will die before almost every other FPS value. The only ones worse are 83, 166, and 500. 500 is extremely buggy, though - when 91 fps takes 50 damage, 500 takes 85 (ouch!). Fire rate is dependent on the developer's values that they set. Just about the only thing they change and control, really. Basically the best valid FPS values, in order from best to worst, for jump height and fall damage: 333, 250, 125, 111, 76, 71, then theres a bunch of other values. 333 is by far the best for jump height. You get almost a 20% increase in your jump height, and fall damage is far less. Fun fact: com_maxfps is actually set to 85, but because this is an invalid value according to the quake engine, it goes to 90.90909 (basically, 91). Valid values for maxfps are found by doing (1000/x) where x is an integer. The only way to get a different maximum FPS than this is using something like DXTory, which allows the limiting of FPS to a specific number. For a full set of information about FPS values in CoD, there's this website: wiki.modsrepository.com/index.php?title=Call_of_Duty_:_A_Study_on_FPSAlso as a reference, my friend made an extremely quick video when I released my MW3 FPS unlocker displaying the jump height and fall damage differences (the video gets a bit glitchy at the start, sorry):
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Post by shatt3r on Nov 13, 2013 22:18:47 GMT -5
Wow thanks for the info guys. I kinda always knew ROF and FPS were somehow affecting each other but not exactly sure why or how. This clears it up a lot.
For PC players how can I know my in game fps and how can I limit my frame rate if I wish to do so? Can it be done in-game or do I have to d/l a program/programs. Sorry for noob qn and thanks for all the work and info.
To be sure I understand this right: Am I right to say you want a time between frames that's a factor of your time between shots for the gun of choice? Or in another way frames per sec should be multiple of bullets per sec. So for example if gun's ROF is 840rpm = 14rps. You'd want your frame rate to be a multiple of 14, e.g: 56, 70, 84. Am I on the right track?
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Post by mrpotatohead on Nov 14, 2013 4:49:35 GMT -5
Hey all,
Long time lurker, first time poster. You are my bro, bro.
I have a question about how the valid frame rates are calculated.
According to my calculations these are the valid FPS recognized by the quake engine
1000/1 = 1000 1000/2 = 500 1000/3 = 333 (333.3..) 1000/4 = 250 1000/5 = 200 1000/6 = 166 (166.6..) 1000/7 = 142 (142.857) 1000/8 = 125 1000/9 = 111 (111.1..) 1000/10 = 100 1000/11 = 90 (90.90..) 1000/12 = 83 (83.3..) 1000/13 = 76 (76.92) 1000/14 = 71 (71.428) 1000/15 = 66 (66.66..) 1000/16 = 62 (62.5) 1000/17 = 58 (58.82) 1000/18 = 55 (55.5..) 1000/19 = 52 (52.63) 1000/20 = 50 1000/21 = 47 (47.61) 1000/22 = 45 (45.454545..) 1000/23 = 43 (43.478) 1000/24 = 41 (41.6666..) 1000/25 = 40 1000/26 = 38 (38.46) 1000/27 = 37 (37.037) 1000/28 = 35 (35.714) 1000/29 = 34 (34.482) 1000/30 = 33 (33.3..) 1000/31 = 32 (32.258) 1000/32 = 31 (31.25) 1000/33 = 30 (30.30..) 1000/34 = 29 (29.41) 1000/35 = 28 (28.57) 1000/36 = 27 (27.7..) I'm going to use an example of the M27 IAR from ghosts which is 705RPM
FPS=RPM 45=675 46=690 47=705 48=576 49=588
There are 2 possible FPS that the quake engine will understand 1000/21 = 47 (47.61) 1000/22 = 45 (45.454545..)
Which would give a better RPM?
47 FPS is 705, but if the engine rounds up 47.61 to 48 then it drops dramatically to 576.
Whereas 45.45.. (rounded down to 45=675 rpm, rounded up to 46=690). Are the FPS always rounded up or is it rounded based on the number itself? Does it look at the whole number or just the 10th's position?
50.45 Rounded up to 50.5 which is then Rounded up to 51? or Rounded down to 50?
50.1 Rounded up to 51 or Rounded down to 50?
50.99 Rounded up to 51, or considered 50 by the engine?
In a related question,
If you set e.g.
seta com_maxfps "50"
Does then engine never let it go above 50, or will it fluctuate around 50, jumping to 51 then back down to 48-49 then back up to 51 etc.... (this is assuming you have no bottlenecks from your cpu/gpu).
p.s. Does seta com_maxfps only work on some CoDs? It doesn't seem to do anything in Ghosts as far as I can tell (I add it below seta com_recommendedSet "1"). I tried seta com_maxfps "2" and seta com_maxfps "02". because 2fps should be obvious. It looked exactly the same as the origninal config_mp.cfg which doesn't include seta com_maxfps.
Is this because it doesn't do anything in ghosts or does it have something to do w/ what Mousey was saying about the engine's FPS and the screens FPS not being directly related?
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pwn3d
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Post by pwn3d on Nov 14, 2013 6:53:08 GMT -5
Your valid fps table is correct but this is only for manual set caps in config. (does not work in CoD Ghosts I think). BO2 allowed to set to 60,90,120,uncap (which were actually 62,91,125,200) in menu.
Every framerate is still possible depending on how fast your computer runs. With cap the framerate should not ever go above, but it might drop lower.
To get your ideal framerate for your gun: Look at Mouseys graphic. The yellow bracket called desynchronization delay is what you want to keep as small as possible. To achieve that a multiple of your frametime (=ms needed per frame) should be slightly larger or exactly as high as your firetime. (being slightly lower is the worst thing to happen)
Frametime = 1000/fps in milliseconds. Firetime = 60/RPM in seconds (*1000 for ms). If you know the firetime, always calculate with it, since RPM is derived and mostly rounded.
705rpm = 85,107.... ms (rounded up). This is likey not the set firetime in the game file, maybe 85ms? (85ms = 705,88... rpm) The goal now is to get a frametime thats a fraction of 85ms. 60fps is 16.666....6667 ms frametime
85 = 5*17, so 17ms frametime or slightly above should be good.
58 fps = 17,2413.... frametime.
you could shoot then every 86,2ms = 696 rpm.
with excel table if found 70fps = 700rpm and 82fps = 703rpm
But I don't think you can make use of that, since every gun has a different ideal rof, and you can't set your fps easily.
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Post by mrpotatohead on Nov 14, 2013 7:42:42 GMT -5
If Ghosts FPS really is capped at 91, that means if you're running the max fps there guns are going to vary noticeably in what they should be firing at and what they actually are.
For 91 FPS I've come up w/
Gun Base RPM - 91 FPS adjusted RPM (% drop in RPM)
SMGs Vector 759 - 703 (7.38%) MTAR-X 810 - 774 (4.44%) CBJ-MS 1000 - 967 (3.3%) K7 895 - 860 (3.91%) PP-19 Bizon 937 - 860 (8.22%) Vepr 869 - 860 (1.04%)
Chain SAW 857 - 774 (9.68%) M27 IAR 705 - 703 (0.28%) Ameli 631 - 595 (5.71%) LSAT 800 - 774 (3.25%)
Assault Rifles AK-12 689 - 645 (6.39%) Honey Badger 800 - 774 (3.25%) ARX-160 857 - 774 (9.68%) CZ-805 769 - 703 (8.58%) FAD 882 - 860 (2.49%) MSBS 448 - 430 (4.02%) R5 RGP 631 - 595 (5.71%) SC-2010 750 - 703 (6.27%)
I wonder if there's a way to cap it below 91, since it sounds like you can't go above it.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Nov 14, 2013 8:39:41 GMT -5
Is there a way to measure the frames per second on xbox? I would like to create a FPS distribution during a few games (maybe select only the moments when I am actually firing the weapon), to calculate an average fire rate per weapon on xbox. (or do I forget about something and is this a bad idea? )
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pwn3d
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Post by pwn3d on Nov 14, 2013 9:01:13 GMT -5
Consoles are capped at 60 as far as I know, but it might drop slightly below when a lot is going on where you currently are looking at.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Nov 14, 2013 9:03:49 GMT -5
I know they are capped, but I think they actually fluctuate all the time, instead of being 60 most of the time (thought that was one of the biggest selling points of COD on new generation). Please tell me if I'm wrong...
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Nov 14, 2013 9:32:25 GMT -5
So creating a distribution of frame rates during all the time your primary weapon is fired during one (or 10) game(s), and then using that distribution to calculate the fire rate for those certain FPS, and then averaging that fire rate should give the most accurate RoF we will ever get for current generation consoles I guess?
It is going to be quite some work I guess. Especially the first part....
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Post by theuberelite on Nov 14, 2013 13:48:17 GMT -5
If Ghosts FPS really is capped at 91, that means if you're running the max fps there guns are going to vary noticeably in what they should be firing at and what they actually are. I wonder if there's a way to cap it below 91, since it sounds like you can't go above it. The FPS table you gave for valid max FPS values still applies. It's capped at 91 because the configuration setting has it at 85. There is a way to change this - I create a tool for every Ghosts update that allows the changing of this variable, but no confirmation that it's allowed. @candyslexia has already confirmed the FoV unlocker to be allowed at least, and said she's trying to get an answer on the FPS unlocker. The valid maxFPS at 1000/x where x is an integer still applies. I would highly suggest never going over 333 as values over that get really buggy. MW3 also had some method of making the highest FPS you could go to 250 apparently - I don't know if that continued through to Ghosts, but even with my tool, the max we could get it to go was 250. DXTory has an FPS limiter. If you can't get Ghosts to work with it, you need to download the hotfix on DXTory's website. This is the only program I know of that allows you to keep the FPS at a specific amount other than those valid Quake engine FPS values. (DXTory is a program much like Fraps, but with WAY more options)
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Post by xFEARtheSHIELDx on Nov 18, 2013 22:09:57 GMT -5
EDIT: Gamefaqs found this thread. If you're reading this from gamefaqs, I hate you. Fuggin hilarious. Mousey, I really can't wrap my brain around all the math in this thread, but I have a question. Since all the auto ARs in Ghosts fall between the magic numbers of 600 and 900, does that mean console players should ignore RoF when picking a gun? Does the R5 end up at the same RoF as the FAD? I know RoF fluctuates with FpS, does that mean RoF doesn't mean much on consoles (as long as they are both between the magic numbers)? Just wondering how this info applies, practically, to console players. Thanks!
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Post by RageHulkSmash on Nov 19, 2013 2:26:48 GMT -5
If the newer consoles can maintain a consistent (or close to it) 60 FPS then you can effectively ignore RPM differences. I can tell you now that won't happen. PS4 gets random and extreme fps stuttering at times and I'm sure xbone won't be any different.
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Post by deston on Nov 19, 2013 3:20:10 GMT -5
If the newer consoles can maintain a consistent (or close to it) 60 FPS then you can effectively ignore RPM differences. I can tell you now that won't happen. PS4 gets random and extreme fps stuttering at times and I'm sure xbone won't be any different. The thing we've been hearing for weeks now was that whereas yes, the ps4 supports native 1080p, it can not maintain a steady 60 fps like the xbox one should be able to. However this raises the following question, in previous years cod was developed for xbox 360 and ported to other systems. This year hearing the 1080p deal, coupled with many pro-ps4 articles talking about how ps4 was so much more friendly for developers (something that was amiss for the ps3) made me wonder if they developed ghosts for ps4... It's more complicated though, considering there isn't just the ps4 and xbox one this year, but you still have pc, wii u, and the old xbox and playstation. Maybe they still made the game for the xbox 360. Ported it over to the different systems, with better textures for the next gen consoles. Considering how little each cod is developed though, at it's base it mostly stays the same. Well, maybe they did develop it for one of the newer generation consoles, but if it was the ps4 they did a shitty job. The ps4 ghosts related stutters sound very much like issues that a lot of 360 to ps3 ports usually had to endure. Generally just more bugs, but series like fifa for instance are imfamous for having freezes on the playstation. Final note, perhaps in a few days we'll find that the xbox one has it's own batch of issues.
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Post by RageHulkSmash on Nov 19, 2013 15:55:20 GMT -5
I think the biggest issue is just IW building the game for 6 platforms under the same time constraint as the previous cods, while learning the new generation tech. It explains why the PC and WII U versions look halfassed. If next year's cod skips old gen, then that would be a much better game to compare between the two consoles.
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Post by pwnsweet on Nov 22, 2013 17:57:46 GMT -5
I think the biggest issue is just IW building the game for 6 platforms under the same time constraint as the previous cods, while learning the new generation tech. It explains why the PC and WII U versions look halfassed. The Wii U is a special case, and has its own dedicated team working on the port. I say this with absolute confidence.
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Post by kriegor on Nov 27, 2013 0:10:46 GMT -5
So, what would the ideal framerate be for the SA805 to utilize those 769rpm or possible get even more? I am too stupid for this calculation. How far should I roundup? 60/769 x 91 = 7,100... does that have to be rounded up to 8,00?? If yes, then 91 fps would result in 682 RPM for this gun, is that correct?
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Post by kriegor on Nov 27, 2013 2:08:47 GMT -5
Well nvm. didnt read your entire first post, thought that sheat was uneditable.Well at least it shows my calculation was right, so Im not that retarded. this "mrpotatohead" guys calculations were wrong though.
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Post by kriegor on Nov 27, 2013 19:39:20 GMT -5
what valid framerate caps? he has a different value for the 805's firerate at 91 fps than both me and the spreadsheat do, so I assume he miscalculated. it would do you good to climb off your horse.
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Post by kriegor on Nov 28, 2013 0:17:45 GMT -5
In fact, FPS locked at 91 occasionally reach 92, 93. and 90,9 would probably be rounded up to 91 by the engine just like anything anyway, even with really good hardware you are not obliged to have 91 constantly. But that spreadsheat should be accurate and is very helpful. Only question is how accurate are the RPM values from Symthic?
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Post by kriegor on Nov 28, 2013 12:28:11 GMT -5
anway this issue changes gun balance drastically.. as it stands, guns like 805 and vector serve no purpose on 91 OR 90 fps. no matter if its rounded or not, the value only changes slightly. some guns having 100+ rof difference with just 2-3 frame difference, kinda riddiculous
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jan 15, 2014 17:32:29 GMT -5
I'm trying to understand how the framerate works with regards to consoles. If I understand correctly, there are two processes, one which creates the frames, and one which displays them. With this, there are actually two separate framerates we can refer to: the rate at which the frames are calculated, which you call the "internal framerate"; and the rate at which frames are shown, which I'll refer to as the "displayed framerate."
Every 1/60th of a second, the console will output the most recently completed processed frame. This increment does not change. If the system has not completed processing a new frame, it will output the same frame again. Because of this, the displayed framerate at any given moment will always be a product of multiples of 1/60th of a second.
The console processes the frames at a maximum of every 1/60th of a second. The internal framerate will generally run at that rate (60 FPS), but at times will drop to a slower rate due to having a lot of stuff to process.
The firing of weapons is tied to the internal framerate.
Is the above correct?
Also, when the framerate drops, is it a somewhat consistent increase between each and every frame? For example, if the framerate were to drop to 50 FPS for a 10 frame interval, the time between frames would look something like this - 1/50, 1/50, 1/50, 1/50, 1/50, 1/50, 1/50, 1/50, 1/50, 1/50 and not this - 1/60, 1/60, 2/60, 1/60, 1/60, 1/60, 1/60, 2/60, 1/60, 1/60 correct?
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banana
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Post by banana on Jan 15, 2014 18:29:00 GMT -5
On console (360) how common is 60 fps? Is 50-54 more common than 55-60
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banana
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Post by banana on Jan 15, 2014 23:06:14 GMT -5
that's definitely more than i expected
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Post by timeitself on Feb 10, 2014 18:48:35 GMT -5
Hi, I was trying to get a better understanding of this after watching drift0r's video and was still a bit confused. Mostly, if framerate is fixed at 60 fps and your gun only fires on the framerate how can you get rates of fire other than 1200, 900, 720, 600 etc. First I think there is a typo in the formula. The last denominator should be FPS not RPM but this just leads to the same very limited number of rates of fire. Clearly something else must be going on if other rates of fire are possible. The game making up for a slower than average firerate, internal vs display fps or something else. Have I misunderstood something? Are the range of fire rates actually very limited? What's going on? So what is my fire rate?
The equation for finding your fire rate at any given frame rate is: In terms of firetime, replace RPM with 60/Firetime
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