Post by jaedrik on Jan 9, 2014 9:10:35 GMT -5
So, after this was posted in gameplay general discussion I made a thread that took a surprisingly short time for how slow I expect myself to write.
It seems that all the negative feedback is focused on the volume of lock ons and the nerf to the reverse maneuver.
Note, most of the proceeding does not necessarily reflect my opinions on the matter, they are the (mostly random) musings I have taken in different directions and are to serve as a food for thought on other perspectives, I hope you will keep that in mind and not think negatively of me when replying, but rather address the points they represent. I'm being facetious! Enjoy.
I want the hover fighting meta to be destroyed so that dog fighting becomes the norm, and lock-ons are equalized that way.
If you want to get in close and tear noobs up with your rotary skill cannon, then you just got the awesome afterburner line to do that!
It's funny, I've experienced the same thing from the CoD community: "Snipers are OP, they kill in one shot, this is bull****! Shotguns are OP too! Tubes are OP!" It's all about feeling. We all know that snipers, and especially shotguns, were massively underperforming stat-wise in that game, the K/D and scores reflected the ridiculousness of the argument from feeling. We also know that tubes, after MW2, were very rarely used, and for good reason, they simply weren't as viable in the AR/SMG only meta.
All the hover meta encouraged was execution skill, there was only one thing to do, sit at range and plink with the nose gun, and that is not depth or tactics.
I urge you all to re-evaluate your positions on the matter of the whole ESF metagame as of now. If the hover meta is what's in the way of getting more content and especially depth, then I want it to go.
Okay, look, I acknowledge that A2A missiles were a bit easy mode, that doesn't matter here. I would like A2A missiles to have a nerf through the increased viability of other weapons and tactics, not a direct nerf, but. . . . Unless they're geared towards a long-range only missile that has a smaller cone of target acquisition, that would be my favorite nerf of choice. I do not want to see the negating effect on A2A or lock-ons being the ability to execute a stock dodge maneuver (terrain dodging is fine, the way it is executed is experientially different every time it is done making it more of a dependent and tactics skill than a mindless execution), they need to have some passive limitation to use otherwise they will become useless against pilots that have strong execution skills.
If it wasn't obvious enough, I am lashing back at the incredible levels of execution necessary to compete in nose gun-only air battles. I do not think this skill is as worthy as tactic skill when it precludes even the slightest possibility of newb entry (like myself). I can't deal with the crappy aiming on ESFs, and I refuse to adapt, so I'm making the argument that ESFs need to be changed in a different way rather than emphasizing execution skill and narrowing the viable options.
It is a design truth that the more viable and meaningful options there are the better the game experience is. There's no doubt about that, but if we're not careful the nerfs to A2A will make them useless again and incredibly inconsistent at killing other air.
What if everyone needs to adapt and specialize further? That would make quite a bit of sense. If the hover fighters want to keep their opponents at the perfect distance or close in, make them work even more for it, but I don't mean work as in develop new execution tactics like when to hover up or down or when to try and maneuver below or above a player, make them work on zoning even more delicately, make it risky to try and keep the sweetspot distance.
Imagine if Marth, in Melee, had his tipper damage in all his hurtboxes, not just the sweetspot. Would that completely remove the spacing game required to raise his skills up to be a contender with Fox, Falco, etc.? Of course it would, it would make him another Sheik, somewhat mindless and blatantly good. Forgive me if you are not familiar with the analogy I present, but I think it is quite poignant. I want to make them (the incredibly skilled pilots) respond to a larger set of experientially different inputs by the opposing pilot. Now, how to do that? Well, I think the new afterburner line is perfect for that (in concept, maybe not in current implementation), they must get in close to dance around their opponent and deal massive damage, and they must be prepared if their opponent attempts to flee or maneuver or out-space them to get a range advantage so they can fire back. I want the current hover meta to be destroyed and that play-style replaced with a close in fighter that dodges all the everything with superior spacing and flight.
Err, I guess Coyote missiles would be a problem with that, huh? Well doo-doo.
A simple solution is to just make Coyote missiles plain do not enough damage anywhere near to out-DPS rotaries. How's that? It allows an option for skilled pilots to easily overcome an opponent that is using Coyote missiles and still allows bad pilots to have something to defend themselves if they fail in killing before the opponent gets too close/fleeing from the opponent after they get too close.
I suppose that is not very different in terms of skill of the current hover meta, but the current hover meta is being edged out in the range department by the A2A missiles, simply make the A2A missiles harder to use close in, and make the afterburner line meaningful in closing the gap. Look, the reverse maneuver got nerfed, that's absolutely wonderful for this exact play-style, it's harder to out-space your opponent when they're afterburning at you full speed from your hovering position without extra afterburner tanks!
Open your minds, guys, the potential in this update is great. Different, and scary, yes, but still great. Don't cling to the past, think of new ways this could change the meta for the better if things go one way or another, and advocate for those instead.
It seems that all the negative feedback is focused on the volume of lock ons and the nerf to the reverse maneuver.
Note, most of the proceeding does not necessarily reflect my opinions on the matter, they are the (mostly random) musings I have taken in different directions and are to serve as a food for thought on other perspectives, I hope you will keep that in mind and not think negatively of me when replying, but rather address the points they represent. I'm being facetious! Enjoy.
I want the hover fighting meta to be destroyed so that dog fighting becomes the norm, and lock-ons are equalized that way.
If you want to get in close and tear noobs up with your rotary skill cannon, then you just got the awesome afterburner line to do that!
It's funny, I've experienced the same thing from the CoD community: "Snipers are OP, they kill in one shot, this is bull****! Shotguns are OP too! Tubes are OP!" It's all about feeling. We all know that snipers, and especially shotguns, were massively underperforming stat-wise in that game, the K/D and scores reflected the ridiculousness of the argument from feeling. We also know that tubes, after MW2, were very rarely used, and for good reason, they simply weren't as viable in the AR/SMG only meta.
All the hover meta encouraged was execution skill, there was only one thing to do, sit at range and plink with the nose gun, and that is not depth or tactics.
I urge you all to re-evaluate your positions on the matter of the whole ESF metagame as of now. If the hover meta is what's in the way of getting more content and especially depth, then I want it to go.
Okay, look, I acknowledge that A2A missiles were a bit easy mode, that doesn't matter here. I would like A2A missiles to have a nerf through the increased viability of other weapons and tactics, not a direct nerf, but. . . . Unless they're geared towards a long-range only missile that has a smaller cone of target acquisition, that would be my favorite nerf of choice. I do not want to see the negating effect on A2A or lock-ons being the ability to execute a stock dodge maneuver (terrain dodging is fine, the way it is executed is experientially different every time it is done making it more of a dependent and tactics skill than a mindless execution), they need to have some passive limitation to use otherwise they will become useless against pilots that have strong execution skills.
If it wasn't obvious enough, I am lashing back at the incredible levels of execution necessary to compete in nose gun-only air battles. I do not think this skill is as worthy as tactic skill when it precludes even the slightest possibility of newb entry (like myself). I can't deal with the crappy aiming on ESFs, and I refuse to adapt, so I'm making the argument that ESFs need to be changed in a different way rather than emphasizing execution skill and narrowing the viable options.
It is a design truth that the more viable and meaningful options there are the better the game experience is. There's no doubt about that, but if we're not careful the nerfs to A2A will make them useless again and incredibly inconsistent at killing other air.
What if everyone needs to adapt and specialize further? That would make quite a bit of sense. If the hover fighters want to keep their opponents at the perfect distance or close in, make them work even more for it, but I don't mean work as in develop new execution tactics like when to hover up or down or when to try and maneuver below or above a player, make them work on zoning even more delicately, make it risky to try and keep the sweetspot distance.
Imagine if Marth, in Melee, had his tipper damage in all his hurtboxes, not just the sweetspot. Would that completely remove the spacing game required to raise his skills up to be a contender with Fox, Falco, etc.? Of course it would, it would make him another Sheik, somewhat mindless and blatantly good. Forgive me if you are not familiar with the analogy I present, but I think it is quite poignant. I want to make them (the incredibly skilled pilots) respond to a larger set of experientially different inputs by the opposing pilot. Now, how to do that? Well, I think the new afterburner line is perfect for that (in concept, maybe not in current implementation), they must get in close to dance around their opponent and deal massive damage, and they must be prepared if their opponent attempts to flee or maneuver or out-space them to get a range advantage so they can fire back. I want the current hover meta to be destroyed and that play-style replaced with a close in fighter that dodges all the everything with superior spacing and flight.
Err, I guess Coyote missiles would be a problem with that, huh? Well doo-doo.
A simple solution is to just make Coyote missiles plain do not enough damage anywhere near to out-DPS rotaries. How's that? It allows an option for skilled pilots to easily overcome an opponent that is using Coyote missiles and still allows bad pilots to have something to defend themselves if they fail in killing before the opponent gets too close/fleeing from the opponent after they get too close.
I suppose that is not very different in terms of skill of the current hover meta, but the current hover meta is being edged out in the range department by the A2A missiles, simply make the A2A missiles harder to use close in, and make the afterburner line meaningful in closing the gap. Look, the reverse maneuver got nerfed, that's absolutely wonderful for this exact play-style, it's harder to out-space your opponent when they're afterburning at you full speed from your hovering position without extra afterburner tanks!
Open your minds, guys, the potential in this update is great. Different, and scary, yes, but still great. Don't cling to the past, think of new ways this could change the meta for the better if things go one way or another, and advocate for those instead.