Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 21:42:08 GMT -5
Anyways, here's a MvM guide I found on the Steam forums. The biggest problem I have with the guide is the assumption that every class is relatively effective in some way and all sit on the same tier. I wonder if that 5-star rating was the result of a useful guide or from not badmouthing people's favorite class. Some classes clearly don't sync well and they're passed off as viable regardless; it's like the author never actually tried them out and theorycrafted anything that had a LITTLE synergy in it. I only posted it to see if we missed any potential loadouts. To play devil's advocate demoknights can be useful against tanks if they're really getting on your nerves. The only problem is that it's the only thing they're great at doing. With Nightmare Coaltown in particular demoknights transition poorly into the endgame because you don't have a lot of things to invest in. With next to no capital demoknight is even less usable.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 1:01:51 GMT -5
145.6 DPS uninterrupted by reloading or restocking. Whenever I play in a server that counts who did how much damage to the tank the demoknight usually ends up being the MVP. Still, he's next to useless with everything else. He relies on chaining kills, and if anyone steals his kills he runs a higher risk of dying for it.
This could be major factor why pyros, spies, demoknights, and heavies need so much help to pull their weight in MvM. The battlefield is heavily saturated with units of all kinds of ranges and abilities; close the gap on the bots you're doing them a favour. They're all good in CQC, and any player class that can remain effective while keeping their distance will be better off.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 13:08:27 GMT -5
I got ~297.3 DPS when fully upgraded. I'm assuming max ramp-up at 138 damage, and the 10% bonus on fire rate stacks on +25% to +35% instead of +37.5%. Geez; how come nobody uses Scottie in MvM?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 1:29:06 GMT -5
Okay, here's a better guide on MvM wave 666. They're all YouTube videos ~30 minutes apiece, and this guy certainly knows what he's doing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 13:42:30 GMT -5
Okay, here's a better guide on MvM wave 666. They're all YouTube videos ~30 minutes apiece, and this guy certainly knows what he's doing. I'd also like to note some classes are just outright under-powered. You can tell he's performing really well but his impact on the team is limited. On some of the supposed weaker classes there's always that soldier doing 130k+ damage by the end. i really wanna try everyone going sniper. we wouldnt win but whoever gets the most damage is the proest. Once the lobby has 6 snipers in it we should only get cash based on quad feeds and 360 no-scopes. The money would turn into mediocre citrus soda bottles and red msg-flavoured corn chips. EDIT: I suck at demo. EDIT^2: Solly too good. I'm just impressed a pyro phlogged his way into 6-digits; I gotta try that out sometime.
|
|
|
Post by UrbaneVirtuoso on Dec 23, 2014 13:03:16 GMT -5
Someone 'uncrate' and reveal their Stuffed Stocking contents so I'll have some semblance of an excuse to redownload and start TF2 again. :3
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 17:54:26 GMT -5
About that new gamemode...
Does this look like TF2's design team showing off their newfound technical prowess over creating a new game mode/mod that's interesting?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2014 3:43:32 GMT -5
If your soldier's running ext. buff banner I'd say no; never. You CAN use the Fan-O-War to get a hit off on a unsuspecting giant every now and again, but I'd say it's less risky just milking and slowing down large groups of enemies. A team with a lot of heavy slayers can stay aggressive against milked enemies because that leech is both sustainable and predictable. Also, the dip in health from the Sandman can also make your jump-off point more chaotic if everyone's grabbing money for you.
It's very situational in my experience. I find it's greatest use is Michael-Jordaning 80 spies swarming in on you in Nightmare.
Beggar's Bazooka for high eco, Barack Box for low eco.
You can't reduce activation time, and soldiers need every second of down time to reload. At least one point is favourable. Soldier is just good at everything in a high-eco game.
I noticed any build that involves airblasting targets is annoying AS BALLS. The giant is moving up and down and good luck hitting anything as demo/solly. Phlog's MMPHH length versus 10% less damage overall is difficult to justify. As I said before CQC in MvM is usually bad because it's risky, difficult to pocket, and usually better players would have a better strategy at that point.
Engi's net damage is usually pretty high on low-eco games, but in Nightmare that dispenser is worth more than the sentry. Not running far to get uncontested ammo saves so many precious seconds. I once lost a wave as heavy because a medic needed more ammo for his Overdose.
Aye. Unfortunately most medics I've played with are ****tards. They won't buff teammates, they'll stand in the line of fire often, or they go combat medic and become pure dead weight. I think if the medic has use most of it will come from the projectile shield and the buffs.
Oh bollocks. Remember that time we went all spy? We just cleaned house that time. He's an absolute horror of the dim.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 4:22:52 GMT -5
I think Pyro is probably best off with a backburner while pretending to be a spy of sorts. If you don't draw aggro with your crits, great. If you do- hope to RNGesus you can burn your way out.
Classes that can deal with tanks are usually the most ideal ones- in other words not support. Scouts can put out solid DPS against tanks with a maxed-out scattergun, but a lot of other upgrades get in the way before that can happen. That might partially be why the double-scout play in nightmare mode worked against tanks.
For his minigun you have: +1 Projectile Penetration (X3, 400). Projectile penetration deserves only one point before getting diminishing returns. Two could work if you're drowning in money and foresee massive swarms. +10% RoF (x4, 350). RoF upgrade isn't necessary, but if you're dealing with tanks/giants you'll want a couple points. +50% Bandolier (x3, 250). You can run out of ammo pretty fast as heavy; this is one of the most important upgrades. Destroy Projectiles (x2, 400). This can be very inconsistent. I prefer direct explosive resistance. Knockback Rage (x3, 350). I can't tell the difference between one point and three points. You can have your minigun push back enemies as your fire at them. You don't really move while firing as heavy, so if you can push your enemy back simultaneously you don't have to go toe-to-toe with a giant. I haven't tried pushing giants into bomb pits, but it might be a tactic worth looking into. That's it, really; you want to use this against giants. +25 health on kill (x4, 200). A lot is best, especially when there is no medic.
Sandvich recharge isn't very important since it's just a last-ditch means of getting health; you won't need it often. Brass beast is the weapon of choice since the tank can just push you along and higher damage comes with multiple obvious advantages. Movement speed upgrades are not 'more' effects while spinning up the barrel, so they're not worth much. The GRU is your movement speed upgrade. You don't need a shotgun; the minigun is your shotgun. It fires 4 pellets at 600 RPM; eat your heart out Call of Duty AA12.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 14:12:55 GMT -5
If the heavy runs out of primary ammo in the middle of a major push he already screwed up. No HoK, having no mad milk, and/or having no medic can create an awkward situation against giants. Especially on the front lines the sandvich can trump all the passive regen in the world.
EDIT: OH right! Your medic might need life if he's in the red. I mean, a shotgun could help, but its DPS is almost nothing compared to the minigun. And you have to reload it, too!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 19:18:01 GMT -5
Wait, how exactly does the minigun work? Does it fire out 4 bullets simultaneously at 600 RPM like a shotgun would, then the game rapidly sends out hit markers for every shot you hit out of the 4 bullets? TF2 wiki doesn't really seem to explain any of this; though the effective 2400 RPM bit is probably more than enough info to the average player.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 2:23:27 GMT -5
Gotcha; therefore I imagine the Heavy only does 162.0 DPS to a tank with an unupgraded BraBea because only one bullet per cluster of 4 shots actually lands. Contrast that to 123.6 DPS offered by the ScoRes and the 117.4 offered by the BegBaz minus the dropoff from not being danger close to the tank. The brass beast can actually be a decent tank killer on low eco. It'll probably be nothing compared to a wrangled sentry (203.8, no rockets), but it's something. However engis get close access to ammo; everyone else has to travel to get ammo. The ScatGun (No, that's not a good shorthand name at all) sits at 94.24 DPS with no upgrades and the FaN gets 115.3- wait, WHAT?! With a stock flamethrower you get 170.5 DPS off on the tank... which likely makes it the best tank-killing weapon in the game. The wiki says it fires off 6.82 damage in intervals of 0.04 seconds- 25 times a second. Unless there's some serious niggatry going down... the pyro seems to be the best tank buster out there. EDIT: Ooh! One more thing! The TF2 wiki entry for Sentry Buster claims that it has an invisible "head". I have no idea if this has been updated out; there's no mention of it on the wiki page.
|
|
|
Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Jan 2, 2015 15:04:53 GMT -5
From the wiki "Finally, they resist 75% of Minigun damage" Have played heavy and Solly quite a bit in MvM I can guarantee you Heavy is not best for tanks. He's good against tanks in that high ammo and rate of fire, but when it comes to tank MVP usually a heavy does not win.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 15:38:00 GMT -5
The Heavy only does 162.0 DPS to a tank with an unupgraded BraBea because only one bullet per cluster of 4 shots actually lands. I suppose the only way to test this is to have a heavy stay far away from a tank, spin it up, aim its crosshairs so that a sliver of it is aiming at the tank, and see what damage values pop up. If we do 4/5 damage apiece to the tank this quote is true. If we instead get 1's and 2's after a second of spin-up it is false. If it's true then it's possible to game the system and partially set the crosshairs on the tank while aiming the other half at other targets. RNGesus suggests that setting half your crosshairs on the tank's hitbox yield's ~6% loss in potential firepower on the tank; at least assuming complete randomness with zero memory. His chances of surviving the encounter are 32.33...- repeating, of course.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 16:34:12 GMT -5
The Panic Attack is an interesting concept in theory. In practice it's a pile of dog slag wrapped in taco grease. It's not called the Panic Attack because it's useful in the midst of them, but because it creates them.
The stock shotgun as a secondary is ideal over the PA in many cases. For most shotgun classes secondary weapons are the kind of guns you should pull and have at the ready no matter what. Having to reload shells into the darn thing in the midst of a heated firefight is less than convenient. Solly/heavy/pyros do not rely on their shotgun; if this weapon has any use it's with the Engi. Increased RoF barely means anything no matter how you use the weapon; whatever you were planning to do the stock shotgun can do more efficiently. Timing the prepwork and actually getting close enough to make those 4 shots count as a combat engi could make this weapon worthwhile after all, but if you're planning on getting that close as combat engi why not grab a widowmaker instead? I don't get what niche this weapon is trying to fill.
It gets worse as solly. In pub TF2 the shotguns secondaries lose viability when you figure out how to keep your rocket launcher topped off alongside other items to deal with the inconsistentcy of medics and health packs in pub lobbies. That's the point to be had here; shotguns are only good when you don't have to worry about health. I don't need to go in-depth about the odds of finding a medic in your lobby that knows what they're doing; the answer is that the odds are too god damn low to justify shotguns at all. The Gunboats are so good as a pub lobby "healing item" because you can jump to healthpacks at will with minimal losses; PLUS your mobility options go up. They're arguably the most powerful pub soldier secondary because they let a soldier be way more mobile while offering little detriment to their combat effectiveness and consistency. They get WAY more control in starting and closing off firefights.
Pyros already have too many secondary weapons, and many of them sync well with flaming or airblasted targets. Shotgun on heavy is only really necessary if you have the Huo-Long Heater or you somehow expect every lobby to feature a QF medic at your back. The Sandvich is already so popular because it's useful when you don't have a medic at your back AND it's useful when you do.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 20:11:54 GMT -5
...and airstrike, Stock rocket launcher, and maybe the CM5k can work. The Direct Hit, Rocket Jumper, Liberty Launcher are never useful in any instance ever.
On second thought, Phlog all the way on high eco. MMPH can wreck tanks and giants unconditionally so long as you don't face them alone. Without tanks the Backburner is still decent, but you have to catch your enemy with their back turned. You need someone to be a monumental threat to the giant in order for it to not turn around. Not only that, but the bomb carrier has a higher chance to advance when you're alone because you have to take waves of enemies from behind.
Against a tank. On Nightmare. With spies everywhere. In hindsight we were doomed to fail anyways. I honestly believe Nightmare requires two soldiers to complete because of that one part. They can assess their surroundings while reloading and fire a projectile from A to B wiping out an entire cluster of spies; that's why they're so efficient in this part. No other class can do that as efficiently; not even the pyro.
Which is why a second support player (besides the scout) is necessary. Scouts have money duty; nobody else can do what they can do as well. Their support tools also make it tempting to forget the money drops and focus on giants. Not getting that end-of-round bonus can stab you harder and harder as the game goes on.
As discussed before but not in print a sapper cooldown upgrade is a solid start. I think everyone should be able to see money through walls; I can't even begin to describe how many times I missed the round bonus because I couldn't find the money before it disappeared. It might have fallen off a bridge, it's behind a rock at eye level somewhere, an ally blew up some robot in a remote location and didn't pick up the money because he's a jerk. At the end of the day it's everyone's job to collect money.
ALSO the ubersaw gets you your 25% extra uber; but it only happens once every TWO hits.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 0:08:47 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 19:40:58 GMT -5
♪ I think someone's internet faaaamouuus. ♪
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 20:45:50 GMT -5
...As opposed to the other Kav on Steam who's heavily into TF2? EDIT: FU CK
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2015 17:21:58 GMT -5
I'm not sure whether 48:43 is Plat being lazy or stylish. I'm gonna say both. Both is good.
I know we discussed this issue to death, but the QF match only made an obvious problem in 6v6 worse. Games often ran stalemated before the QF's introduction; especially sieging the 5th point on 5cap. All the Quickfix did was capitalize more on having large swathes of people living longer. I imagine the intent of this item is to bring out more pick classes into the meta, but instead the most efficient answer was swapping out to the kritzkrieg. Why they banned the item when there was an obvious counter is well beyond me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2015 19:26:47 GMT -5
Plat shot a rocket at a dropped weapon to collect it; I thought it was pretty smooth.
Of course in the match the quickfixes retired as the kritzkriegs came out. Perhaps banning it would also prevent a pointless rock-paper-scissors meta that didn't really do much for anyone anyway.
Overall I've noticed 5cap seems to be the bread and butter of 6v6. What's wrong with KotH and PL? They seem to play out well in 9v9; are these modes too susceptible to spawn traps? 5cap is already reputable for 5-0 wins across the boards; maybe experimenting with other game types will do the trick. I don't know.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 17:38:32 GMT -5
I like swiftwater; it's a happy place. EDIT: This is a thing. Lord knows how but it's a thing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 14:52:42 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 16:11:52 GMT -5
It's a clever enough name; I don't blame him. Though biting the hand that feeds you is often a dumb thing. Granted if the hand is waving in the air like it don't care instead of feeding you, THEN you can bite it. I have no idea how good this medic is. From the same thread: Roughly 90% of the time you'll find an amateur medic swapping out mid-round. I imagine newer players might do this if they see their kill spread dip too fast. The sole reason I swap out is when I can't dole out enough healing per life to make my role as medic worthwhile. I also swap out when there's a level 3 afoot and nobody cares to push out WHEN I UBER THEM; at which point it's apparent your odds of winning are shot pretty badly.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 20:10:28 GMT -5
Dammit. Now I seldom use the quickfix because I want mah overheals.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 23:02:25 GMT -5
You know what's scarier than facing a scout with 180 health? Pocketing a heavy with 3; but even scarier than that? A full-meter BFB scout with 180 HP.
Initially I thought the Baby Face Blaster ramped up from -10% speed to +10% because that would make sense. Not the case; the full bonus compounds +30% onto 133% for 173%- which is outrageously high.
In my experience the double-barrels are tough to do well with. I once saw the Soda Popper used on a scout crowd-surfing in a highlander match and the defending team had no idea how to deal with this quintuple-jumping harrier. The FaN is kind of counter-intuitive since it deals more damage but pushes your opponent away from you. Sure I managed to push a few bomb carriers off the side in MvM; but 173% speed is starting to sound really good.
I never tried the backscatter but it has a similar problem with the backburner in comp. Even if you somehow never use airblasts you'll never get behind the enemy long enough to get some crits out. Banning these weapons would be somewhat redundant.
I used to think the Shortstop was THE scattergun to use. In practice it's awful.
I tried using the Pretty Boy's pocket pistol. The 15HP health boost is useful, and it just so happens to have a feather duster attached to it so I can tickle my opponent.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 12:44:04 GMT -5
Surprisingly fire will fuck everyone up when there are no medics/dispensers, 10 players, and 2/3 healthkits around. That's probably something the logs will never tell you about the pyro.
I'll agree on the topic of secondaries; I've hit a couple of lobbies where a scout would Sandman me from across the map and fling a flying guillotine for an instant kill. Beyond that the consistency of the item is awful; at that point a sniper would be more practical. I like how pistols are deadly enough to finish off frags in CQC but weak enough to make drinks viable.
It's also worth noting that the scout's speed is capped off at 173% instead of the theoretical 216% after a 25% boost from crit-a-cola. With crit-a-cola a 25% speed boost will count for nothing past that. Come to think of it I wonder if speed upgrades in MvM would be useless with a full-meter BFB; potentially that's $600 you'll never have to spend. The FaN is good for pushing back the bomb carrier but as you upgrade its damage it slowly starts to lose that effect against more fragile targets. You end up killing the bomb carrier without pushing him back, your team will be rigged with ways to blow up robots very efficiently at that point, and now you have a weapon with not that much damage behind it. I guess you can stall giants and push heavies; but milk is already really useful in that regard.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 14:13:18 GMT -5
Damage upgrades are often the thing I end up upgrading last with FaN. Two points in milk recharge and milk slow, 2 points in every resist, 3 in crit resist, a 3rd in bullet resist if there's a giant heavy problem afoot, and after 3250 in upgrades there's nothing important left to buy as a scout. You don't really need canteens unless you're on a tough difficulty, and while I guess the Sandman can come in handy against giant crit-fueled pyro/heavy/demoknight clusters it takes a while before you can get enough capital to make the Sandman setup consistent enough to be viable. Though it's definitely worth it if you get it running and you're sitting on a buttload of health.
And it's not like you can capitalize on the utility of the FaN. There are no reload speed or fire rate upgrades; penetration on a scattergun is bad value, health gain is near useless. A bandolier upgrade might be useful later on if you really need it, but +1 magazine size for $400 is also pretty bad value in low/mid eco.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 1:09:29 GMT -5
Hm. Perhaps if I could rely on my team to deal all the damage it would be an optimal strategy, but the canteen idea is ludicrous. I can only hold 3, and there's no way I'm going to and from spawn just to buy canteens while leaving money on the ground. There have been times where I manage to match or out-damage less experienced players on my team in the same frame of time while still putting out a decent amount of support. Of course, on intermediate or normal half the team can slack off and everything can still run along fine. I don't think there's an disagreement that the scout's primary role should heavily emphasize utility first, but being a puritan of sorts in his role is something I can't seem to agree with.
I'm fairly certain you can only mark one target at a time with the FoW; and those marks have to go straight for the sentry busters and giants. Maybe it's more viable to mark swarms one-by-one and hope your ally targets them, but at that point I find jarate or buff banner would be much more practical. Even if you manage to get 4 points in milk recharge that's still plenty of time to slug it out with a few bots. I mean, I guess I could get bigger mags in lieu of damage and hope pushing a bomb carrier back will be more useful. When the bomb gets near the chute pushing the bomb carrier in any direction away from our net can only be productive, right?
The reason I don't put too much emphasis on milk recharge is that if there's an engi abroad I want to save it for the sentry busters; milk and fan the buster and you allies get a giant pinata of healthcare benefits instead of candy. Otherwise; milk everything else and pray you don't run out of ammo.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 2:58:26 GMT -5
I'm aware that you have a solid case in that scattergun damage upgrades are a terrible value; and maybe sinking capital into the Sandman would likely be an ideal late-game strat. On the flipside is ranged marking really that important? Is the fan-o-war really that bad for marking targets as is? Closing the distance on the target isn't an issue; gambling on whether or not you'll draw a giant's aggro is another thing entirely. Unless you got a raging giant heavy preventing you from getting close to him for marking you may as well be cheap and grab damage upgrades if you're using a scattergun designed for damage. Drawing his aggro is a good thing; the scout has the most effective HP; he may as well put it to use. Crap; on second thought that might be damage you don't need to take. Hm...
And if I'm stuck grabbing money because nobody else went scout, and I'm not confident my team can deal all the damage, that's a no-win situation already. An adequate team is often what I have to accept. You'd think playing on expert or advanced would filter out people who play with one hand, but it doesn't. It just makes you and other people pickier over the rest of team; and metahitler is the word of the day. Votekicking the scrubs and telling people to use a different item seldom yields ideal results. Even then if as engi walks in with a gunslinger; is that supposed to give anyone the impression he's experienced enough to do his job if/when he's wielding a level 3 later on? Herding a random team is more work than what it's worth; and at that point I may as well take getting steamrolled in PvP because at least the game sometimes acknowledges that my team sucked, yet I was okay. Tell Captain Telnet he's a legend in that regard.
No really, that a PvP server back there was dope. Fastlane pro was neat; that happy grassy warehouse PL map was fun. The confusing snowy PL map was... interesting but it seemed that a lot of the map elements were never used. Or maybe I was dead when the enemy started steamrolling everyone. Hard to tell; Cap and I held the line for a minute or so but then everything went to shit after that. It didn't help that we were down 3 players for half the match.
That being said modded 10-player lobbies are always fun. So long as at least 4 people on the team that have a brain it doens't matter if everyone else is in the spawn congaing; you're gonna be fine.
|
|