tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jun 20, 2016 13:13:27 GMT -5
mccree was a do-it-all dps. Literally didnt have a bad matchup vs anyone but widowmaker, now he struggles quite vs tanks and you might as well unbind right click. Was pleasantly surprised how willing they were to nerf him, and the widow nerf was cherry on top
barney, you're a console player right? tier list is completely different from pc because of the disparity in aiming precision, and I can only see the pace of the game being alot slower as a result (whether thats good or bad is up to yourself). On console tjorborn is supposedly a powerhouse to the point of lotsa complaints and cries for nerfs.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Jun 20, 2016 13:13:54 GMT -5
Mccree is low mobility actually. All he has is barrel roll for movement.
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Post by blackbarney on Jun 20, 2016 13:24:06 GMT -5
barney, you're a console player right? tier list is completely different from pc because of the disparity in aiming precision, and I can only see the pace of the game being alot slower as a result (whether thats good or bad is up to yourself). On console tjorborn is supposedly a powerhouse to the point of lotsa complaints and cries for nerfs. Yeah, i'm on console. You're totally right about the aiming disparity. Now I remember why my buddy wanted me as Tjorborn, cuz I can't aim for p00py. So that's a perfect character for me to use. I need to remember to shoot when i have his ultimate going, I can't resist doing the quick hammers just for laughs. Also, from the sounds of it here, it sounds like Tjorborn is a good pick to demoralize the other team. And finally, and obviously most importantly, one of his outfits is a pirate! Black Barney is a space pirate so it's a natural fit.
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Post by blackbarney on Jun 20, 2016 14:07:30 GMT -5
great post, mouse. thanks! Torb it is i think!
That's a really good point too about avoiding characters that require coordination. It's the main reason I didn't play Reinhardt during the beta. I wouldn't have people behind me abusing the shield and then i'd get focus fired and get super pissed off.
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Post by volgon on Jun 20, 2016 20:24:07 GMT -5
In case people are interested in stats/meta analysis of tournaments (GosuGamers streams two tournaments every weekend, Saturday = EU teams, Sunday = NA teams), you can find meta stuff here and hero stats (dmg, hp, all that jazz) here though you can also go to the OW gamepedia or the Oversheet as well.
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Den
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Post by Den on Jun 20, 2016 23:17:51 GMT -5
Most of the variables are already well known across several sites. Blizzard isn't shy to divulge numbers and Blizzard fans have always been big on analyzing mechanics.
Torbjorn is alright, pretty weak, really. I did just play a game with 5 Torbjorns on Hanamura and the enemy just kept charging in without even trying to take them out. Hard work pays off.
Bastion and Mei are anti-fun. Their mere presence will kill almost all momentum and/or break up a group. Bastion isn't very strong if you think of him as some mid range defensive hero (easily dispatched assuming he isn't being covered by Reinhardt), but he's very devastating if you use him as a flanker.
Mei especially is a fun killer both as an enemy and even as an ally sometimes because of her stupid Wall.
It keeps being said that Mei is "easy to counter" but that's crap. Even the worst Mei players who remember to press Shift and E are capable of contesting any location by her lonesome for 10+ seconds. Even the idea of "she's a sitting duck once she comes out of that ice cube" is bunk as she can bring up the Ice Wall the instant she breaks out. Placing the wall right at her feet will send her skyward, an easy escape or a secondary block to stay alive in most locations.
Since all characters besides Tracer and Genji move at the same speed, it only takes one tick of Mei's LMB Frost to trap you, and the only way to escape is if you have a mobility skill not on cooldown or very good aiming skill also taking into account the increasingly slowing aiming speed.
Unlike any other character, her Ultimate can cover the entirety of almost any capture point and is arguably the best at clearing a point, either it will make the enemy run off or render them frozen and helpless to a few easy headshots.
Everything about Mei, perhaps not "overpowered", is still frustrating as hell.
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Den
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Post by Den on Jun 21, 2016 2:18:27 GMT -5
I wouldn't call Torb passive at all. His primary tools require him to be up front and active, the Turret is supplemental damage and a distraction to make up for Torbjorn's lack of mobility and comparatively low health.
The Rivet Gun is statistically one of the stronger weapons in the game in regards to potential damage output. It is a bit weaker per shot and has more projectile drop, but it has a much faster rate of fire than Hanzo's bow with full charge each time. Torbjorn, once you get the arc of his rivets down, can make for a fairly effective counter-sniper, benefitting from his short height and arcing shots. And then if anyone gets up close, the Alt Fire shotgun is capable of wiping out 150-200 health heroes with a single shot assuming some hit the head. I've saved myself many times with one well placed blast against a McCree before he could even get his Flashbang out.
Torb is effectively a glass cannon with a Reaper-light ability to use Scrap from fallen foes to recover 75 "health" in the form of armor. Picking up scrap usually means either his allies are dying in the back or Torb is at the frontline scavenging fresh kills. While it only lasts as long as an ally doesn't take a hit (compared to Symmetra's effective +25 regenerating HP for everyone until their death), That +75 from Armor packs can really empower many other heroes when they make a push.
Even when its damage is low, the 40m radius of detection and super fast turning speed makes it a very effective tool for detecting flankers. I've had several games using Torbjorn on Attack, dropping the Turret in the middle of the open and that had saved us from flanking enemies about to drop their Ultimate on us if only because it chipped off 28 damage per second off of them and pointed me in their direction.
Those that treat Torbjorn as though he's an "Engineer" are the same kind of folks who camp their Sentry in TF2. They're missing the true potential of the character - Torbjorn's powerful weapon and armor mechaninc while the Turret is a distraction, Engineer as the backbone of the team's support with a well placed Dispenser and Exit.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jun 21, 2016 5:48:32 GMT -5
If bastion gets that same perfect accuracy for a burst as soldier, recon mode is really strong. Theyre both nearly identical anyway (its like a 10 dps difference up close in favour of soldier, same dps after falloff)
and I dont think tjorb is too far off from being pickable, they just need to find a way that accentuates his run 'n gun playstyle a tiny bit more. Maybe an alt click on the hammer that upgrades the turret faster at the cost of scrap or something. The left click is okay but that shotgun blast tears people
also im gonna vouch for zenyatta no longer being dumpster not on account of the widow nerfs or something, but with mccree gone theres really only 2 heros that focus down tanks and those are reaper and bastion, with bastion being not applicable for everything of course. If you as a team find a way behind or through a shield tanks just die with zen on your team plus alot of meta ult stuff doesnt instakill so zen ult has actual value again (it did jack shit vs mccrees deadeye)
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jun 21, 2016 8:24:27 GMT -5
bastions gun is strictly worse :soldier maintains perfect accuracy for the first 4 shots, then it blooms exponentially while bastion has lineair bloom ( dont quote me on this but the max bloom is the same as bastion from in-game experience), bastion also has shittier falloff actually ( docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tb7xg_EmtkqgR7da6IDMcFjdEsFkefcW_78mAIRKp0w/edit#gid=2106552717 ). Mag size doesnt really matter as when you look at dmg/mag theyre about the same, and I suppose bastion has the 100 hp advantage (although that is offset by his own huge size; all spread shot stuff wrecks him). so ye bastion recon is a super discount soldier but I wouldnt be surprised to see soldier tweaks upcoming anyway mercy boost is 30% i think. still big, but it means that some 150 dmg stuff doesnt one shot 200 hp chars and naturally zen isnt a solo support replacement but you see dual supp more often than not anyway. not saying zen is quite there yet but hes certainly raised a tier on my personal list. very polarizing hero regardless (im always fan of very high strength offset by huge weaknesses kind of balance)
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Den
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Post by Den on Jun 21, 2016 9:10:49 GMT -5
When it comes to the Pulse Rifle and the Scout Rifle, their differences on paper result in nearly identical outcomes in practice with 76 having ever so slight an edge.
76 gets the first three shots with perfect accuracy. The crosshair does not move at all and the shots do indeed hit a pinpoint regardless of the range. While the fourth is also damn near perfect, it still has a potential 0.1 degree radius, maybe. Still "perfect" given the sorts of ranges this game offers.
Bastion only gets its first shot with pinpoint accuracy. While the grouping expands slower than 76's rifle, it also recovers slower. You can see this in how 76's crosshair rapidly fluctuates when it reaches max radius after seven shots while Bastion's stays steady at max after ten shots. Their statistical differences when it comes to inaccuracy likely result in extremely similar results when they're applied in an actual match.
That is to say 76's higher delay with a precise three shot burst and then high bloom versus Bastion's slower crosshair bloom end up giving the two of them roughly the same level of precision if firing full auto. Both of their crosshairs are identical, so they're very likely working on the exact same visual feedback. Staring at the screen for several minutes, it appears that the grouping is a circle that stays within the inside of the red crosshair (although there often appears to be an extreme edge shot every now and then that almost makes me think the grouping is square).
Based on that observation, the math suggests that both Bastion and 76 have a maximum cone of fire radius of 3° However, because of 76's rapid recovery, his max firing radius could be a bit tighter than 3 degrees by nature of the mechanics recovering a bit before the next shot.
And of course damage-wise, they are mathematically balanced to suit the usual TTK/DPS metric. Given that 200 and 250 are among the most common amounts of health... Bastion at 480 RPM, 20 damage at point blank. 1.125 TTK vs 200 HP, 1.5 vs 250. 76 at 600 RPM, 17 damage at point blank. 1.1 TTK, 1.4 TTK. Given how prevalent (and relatively easy) headshots are, considering an ideal of nothing but headshots, Bastion inches ahead just a bit and will end up (almost) in-sync with 76's all-headshot TTKs. 0.5 vs 200HP and then 0.75 Bastion, 0.7 Soldier vs 250HP.
Also, their damage falloff over distance appears to be nearly the same. Both have a surprisingly long max damage range than then sharply declines. 76 appears to go below 17 damage per shot after 30m while Bastion starts dropping from 20 damage after 25m (based on Practice Range's ground markings).
Overall, the two can perform almost as well, but 76 has slim advantages in slightly greater lethality, accuracy in the initial shot and theoretically max radius accuracy and a five round larger magazine. Bastion's Scout Rifle is no pushover, but is not quite the Pulse Rifle.
Tangentally, while testing this, I find that with perfect timing, Bastion can move and heal, losing close to no momentum at all. Tapping E and jump simultaneously, he'll recover some health and be out of his repair animation just as he lands on a level surface. Advantageous downhill or while jumping off something, not so much uphill. The rate of recovery seems to be a little random, but he can get 40+ health with each jump. While he won't be able to fight and heal at the same time like 76, he can heal all he wants (assuming he's not being shot).
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Jun 21, 2016 12:37:35 GMT -5
The real question is: why is the character who specializes in building great walls Chinese?
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Den
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Post by Den on Jun 21, 2016 19:03:38 GMT -5
ARD WARK PEYS ALF
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jun 21, 2016 19:19:24 GMT -5
donktey kong with ur beard in a letterbox
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jun 21, 2016 20:04:40 GMT -5
lets hear those cunts
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2016 21:16:00 GMT -5
This thread is now Hanzo.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Jun 21, 2016 21:30:43 GMT -5
primalrage.jpg
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2016 21:45:25 GMT -5
Fine- the other way around then. (Artist Lase-x@tumblr.com)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2016 23:02:53 GMT -5
Hanzos just awful design too. Its a spam centric class with no reload and a wallhack Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't Widowmaker also be a spam-centric class with an occasional reload and a wallhack? I always figured Hanzo's issue is that his role is too similar to Widow, thus getting overshadowed.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Jun 21, 2016 23:12:44 GMT -5
Widow can't get a kill by shooting around corners and shooting at your own feet with cluster arrows.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jun 22, 2016 6:12:17 GMT -5
hanzo would compete with midrange dps classes not with widow anyway imo
with reductions to scatter cd hes actually not that bad too
also the new ranked sudden death rules are so hilariously contrived and stupid: basically after playing 4 rounds you only have to cap the first point in overtime/sudden death, and since first point is super attacker-favoured, its basically a coin flip on who gets to attack
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jun 22, 2016 12:14:45 GMT -5
no im on all the time im like lvl 130 (rip)
havent been on steam tho
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Jun 22, 2016 13:09:30 GMT -5
I think that's the last time he was in the US realm.
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Den
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Post by Den on Jun 23, 2016 7:19:31 GMT -5
Zen n' Dwarf buffs when
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jun 23, 2016 7:49:00 GMT -5
To be honest, I hope never, in the case of Torbjorn, especially on consoles. I know most of you are part of the master race, but there is a huge player base on console as well, and pubs there are being dominated by turrets.
Now there can and will be separate balancing for console and PC, but even on PC, I think turrets make this game harder and especially more frustrating then it should be for players who have no experience in FPS games.
So I guess my question would be:
Do we really need torbjorn in the competitive meta? even if he will make the game less fun for new players? I personally don't think so.
Zen needs something small, he is already quite powerful if you ask me, but needs really good positioning. Once you have a symetra or especially a torbjorn in your team (or both!), he becomes exponentially more powerful. I think increasing the duration of out of LOS orbs would do the trick. Or keep the harmony orb on target until fully healed even if out of LOS.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jun 23, 2016 9:40:49 GMT -5
Roadhog is rising in usage, and zen is a great answer to that. I hope its enough for him to see play cus hes badass
also surprising to see more monkey in payload than koth
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Jun 23, 2016 12:04:55 GMT -5
The rise of Reaper continues. Two shotguns are too good.
Torb has a bit of duality. No one in pubs in coordinated enough to push multiple turrets so he's gr8 in pubs but bad in high levels.
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Post by volgon on Jun 23, 2016 13:04:10 GMT -5
he honestly might be getting more usage than it seems. in tf2, the engie isnt part of the core comp lineup, but hes very regularly used when a team gives up ground early and sets up further back, and is usually switched off the moment his gun goes down (because its quite difficult to get that opportunity again). im unsure if his usage is artificially lower just because he might only be used in specific scenarios that really cater to him (which is fine, imo). its probably not the case though since widow appears to have a massive offensive pick bias this patch and i highly doubt that is lasting entire games. The engineer probably has a lot less hard counters than Torb does. I'm not versed in TF2 comp but from what I've played I imagine the Engi counters are spy/demo/soldier? Spy has to put himself at significant risk and demo has to get close, so soldier seems like the only one who can safely shoot a turret from range. Compare that to OW where there are more counters, but more importantly, more SAFE counters. 76/Widow give you ranged hitscan damage, Pharah can peek rockets ala soldier but with better positioning due to flight, Junkrat functions like the Demo, and Reinhardt gives all these characters a 2000 hp shield they can safely kill turrets behind. RE: Winston in payload, all the Payload maps have high ground areas that are difficult for attackers to access without high mobility. Areas like the top of the buildings during the streets phase of Hollywood, or top of the buildings in the control point area of King's Row are where you'll often find your ranged dps classes like Widow or 76. Winston gives attackers a way to proactively deal with these threats rather than have a sniper duel or try to pick them off with other dps. Winston jumps on the Hollywood roofs -> either kills their Widow/76/whatever or they fall back -> attackers push is safer because they aren't being hit from above. KOTH maps have significantly less of these elevated areas, and Winston isn't very good in a straight up team fight because his damage is so low, so he doesn't see as much play there.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jun 24, 2016 9:10:57 GMT -5
Torb is extremely annoying in console pubs. The biggest issue I find is his ultimate - there's nothing more annoying than when you're about to destroy his turret and then you hear "molten core". I don't understand why they gave him an ultimate where both he and the turret are basically invincible and do extra damage, and he builds faster. Because of the enormous amount of damage the turret puts out, he constantly gets it.
Zenyatta is fantastic, far better than you guys are giving him credit for. You discord people, they die.
The chat system is terrible. It's incredibly frustrating that people who don't have mics or are playing in a party can't hear you speak. The little wheel is wildly ineffective at communicating.
The number of randoms on my team that choose to snipe is concerning. I can't wait for the Widowmaker nerf simply because I hope it will stop people from choosing her; the players that choose her aren't helping anyway. Yesterday I started checking the win percentages of the players that chose her, and not one was over 50% with her.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jun 24, 2016 15:34:10 GMT -5
fwiw hawk most of this discussion has been with respect to zen's value in competitive, where his biggest problem is that he dies if someone glares in his general direction. i mean in my experience that happens in pubs too but at the end of the day hes still a healer and thats usually more valuable than a 5th offense class or whatever. Plus hes rather useless against coordinated shield usage. Doesnt matter if its reinhardt or lesbian, both are staple heros and both circumvent using discord properly Fuck mei regardless of team. And fuck the weeb hero while we're at it too
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jun 24, 2016 22:42:22 GMT -5
fwiw hawk most of this discussion has been with respect to zen's value in competitive, where his biggest problem is that he dies if someone glares in his general direction. i mean in my experience that happens in pubs too but at the end of the day hes still a healer and thats usually more valuable than a 5th offense class or whatever. Plus hes rather useless against coordinated shield usage. Doesnt matter if its reinhardt or lesbian, both are staple heros and both circumvent using discord properly Foxtrot mei regardless of team. And Foxtrot the weeb hero while we're at it too I wouldn't say he's useless against coordinated shield users (in pubs) any more than almost anyone else is. With Zarya, just wait for the shield to end...same as everyone else. Then re-orb. With Reinhardt, it actually prevents him from doing anything - if he takes his shield down he's going to get orbed and die unless it's to do a move that kills Zenyatta. He can't turn to block an attacker from another direction.
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