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Post by thegentleman on Feb 16, 2015 18:26:41 GMT -5
Okay, why not engage in a little bit of harmless armchair game balancing? While looking at Netcode and matchmaking and all of that is an easy scapegoat, I'd have no idea how to fix it. Instead, why not focus on elements of the CoD franchise that can be altered in ways that we can understand?
What 3 changes would you make to the "core" CoD experience?
Here would be what I would alter. Granted, some people might not agree with this, but if I suddenly became a silent partner over at IW/SHG/Treyarch, this is what I'd be pushing hard for in the next franchise as changes I feel are long overdue.
1. No knifing if you've been shot first.
Ideally, the knife is a stealth weapon. In every action movie, people only bring out the knife when they're sneaking around and have the drop on someone. If you stab someone, you know where they are (presumably) and they don't know where you are. Silent One Hit Kill. I'm fine with that. But ever since I started playing with BOII, having people soak up two or three rounds to stab me is the epitome of stupid. If you're being shot at as you go to knife, it means your opponent KNOWS you're there. And if you win that fight, it means you've just beaten a rifle in a gunfight.
So basically, you can't knife if you're not at full health. I'd switch it up so that if you're closing in on someone from behind, you commando lunge and shiv them. I just hate the Reflex Blade idiocy.
2. People who are flashed or stunned cannot ADS.
This one has always seemed like a no-brainer to me. Non-lethal grenades are a cool idea, but nobody uses them because they can't do diddly-shit. Every game, I try to make non-lethal equipment work for me, and every game, I give up on it. I LOVED the effectiveness of concussion grenades in BOII, even after the nerf. It GLUED PEOPLE DOWN and disoriented them. The damage was to their reaction time and mobility, and good players took advantage of that in objective modes.
Here we are in AW. They did one great move: combining the flash and stun together into a single grenade type, which makes all kinds of sense. Too bad it still doesn't actually do anything. If a tac grenade just makes your screen bright for about three quarters of a second or makes your view a little wiggly, it's caused no meaningful change to the person on the other end. I can't actually think of an instance in AW where a stun placed me at a significant disadvantage. I just drop back to cover for about 500ms and re-engage. That's not a lot of value for the grenade runner.
I think a lot of good could be done by removing the ability to fire precisely. Hipfire is a fine method of last resort against someone who's gotten the drop on you. You might win by literally spraying and praying, but you probably won't. A rusher should be able to severely hinder your ability to precisely shoot him down as he closes the distance, and at least hinder your mobility to make a retreat. It also gives SMGs as a whole a big plus against ARs, since they're easier to hipfire. And, if people get sick of it, guess what, use one of those immunity perks that have existed in the game since the dawn of time.
3. Loosen the rules of class balance.
Having a 200ms ADS time for ARs and 100% run speed for SMGs seems at this point like some kind of law chiseled into a stone tablet somewhere. Why? I liked the fact that the USAS-12 in MW3 had unlimited sprint, and I liked that certain guns like the VEPR in Ghosts had a fast sprint-out at the cost of a longer ADS time.
I think part of the problem with the weapon balancing is that there are only two parameters that are ever looked at: damage (which includes range, really), and recoil. What about all of the other possibilities open? I'd like to see ARs that are EXTREMELY sluggish to counterbalance other pluses, SMGs that substantially increase your mobility, guns bundled with some kind of "mini-perk", perhaps beginner-friendly guns that are poopy statistically but have a higher degree of aim assist, etc. I think at this point we're basically locked into the system we have, and any gun that's on paper is going to be statistically similar to something else in another game.
I could talk a little more, but let's limit this to 3 things. I actually think the design discussion is a fun exercise and would like to see what other veteran CoD players would do if they had the chance to make some changes to foundational mechanics.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Feb 16, 2015 19:04:57 GMT -5
Regarding melee, I'd just make it do a high amount of damage (ex. something like 90) so that it is a two hit kill at full health, but a one hit kill if the player has been hit by any gun. And then speed up the melee to compensate. You can still melee unaware opponents by bumping them like a shield, but you can't just panic knife around corners.
Stuns have the same problem with all previous games in that it's impossible to gauge how affected the target is and the efficacy of the grenade varies dramatically based on hit radius. A major problem is charging in upon receiving a hit marker when the opponent is hardly compromised.
Dramatically different weapons would be cool and could easily work. However, even within the tight framework of existing guns, developers have repeatedly demonstrated that they cannot balance weapons. Adding more variables would only increase the capacity to ruin weapon balance.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 16, 2015 19:05:50 GMT -5
buff shotguns
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Will
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Post by Will on Feb 16, 2015 19:18:04 GMT -5
1) 50 damage knife to front (same quick speed as now, except make it a blunt pistol whip or something, a unique animation for each weapon). 100 damage to the back, with a longer slower assassination animation. Pretty much similar to Battlefield, except in BF it's only like 25 damage slash to the front I think?
2) Remove "weapon classes" altogether. Like how Titanfall did it. Every weapon is it's own unique beast, and they are all balanced and meshed nicely.
3) All guns shoot projectiles instead of hitscans tied to framerate. Not sure how feasible this is without the original IW (now Respawn) team. I doubt there is anybody left that has any idea how the core of the engine works.
Bonus) Microsoft Azure dedicated servers. Just use them for whatever is the newest title, and revert past titles to peer-to-peer with each new launch. Anyone who played Titanfall knows why this is better than sex.
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Post by broth3r on Feb 16, 2015 19:21:36 GMT -5
When it comes to melee, I believe the knife's effect and speed are fine; the issue for lies elsewhere. I thoroughly dislike the use of the knife as a panic button, as an instakill available in any situation. I do make moderate use of it, but almost exclusively in that action in though, asserting in my head "okay, I'm gonna go there and knife this bastard"; say, when I run dry and bro rush, when I'm reloading, pumping my shottie, or specifically in AW's case, in that unbelievably frustrating Boost Slam delay.
In short, I'd want to make the knife a weapon you need to THINK of using before being able to do so. By this I don't mean turning it into a stealth weapon (or semi-stealth, as in Battlefield), as this being CoD, the concept of a knife rush is something I feel belongs in CoD (do note, I am very much a bloodlust rusher at heart). However, I can see this being difficult to implement, but one possible way would be to nerf melee in damage or speed whenever you're not in some sort of downtime (say, using a buttstock animation), and keep it as is whenever you're unable to shoot (with a proper knife/exo punch/some sort of brutal, desperado animation).
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Post by Megaqwerty on Feb 16, 2015 19:33:33 GMT -5
The problem with a back stab multipler is how unpredictable CoD is with regards to player positions relative to each other. Think about how many times you have earned a back stab accolade when you were not definitively behind the enemy.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Feb 16, 2015 19:45:35 GMT -5
having people soak up two or three rounds to stab me is the epitome of stupid. I mean most of that is lag, it very well could be you never even fired on their screen or shot only once. That's why Commando was annoying, but not OP, because lag is one helluva thing. Honestly I'd rather just get rid of the knife on Analog, maybe make it switch to knife and then you have to use the fire button to actually knife. That's the ONLY problem I have with knife, the "Oh shit a person came around the corner, let's hit a button and insta kill a person"
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 16, 2015 19:52:38 GMT -5
Theres nothing preventing someone from eating 3 shots from a MP11 and then knifing you. The issue is someone can react much slower and press a button that not only kills in one hit, but also does most of the aiming for you. I dont really see why lag would make this any worse than any other scenario.
I would be happy if the knife were totally removed.
Tacticools were fine before pick 10. Could probably just have 1 point buy you 2 tacticools, but only 1 lethal.
Interesting idea on the varied aim asisst, but the issue with things like that is how impossible it is to balance.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Feb 16, 2015 20:10:06 GMT -5
Theres nothing preventing someone from eating 3 shots from a MP11 and then knifing you. The issue is someone can react much slower and press a button that not only kills in one hit, but also does most of the aiming for you. I dont really see why lag would make this any worse than any other scenario. I would be happy if the knife were totally removed. Tacticools were fine before pick 10. Could probably just have 1 point buy you 2 tacticools, but only 1 lethal. Interesting idea on the varied aim asisst, but the issue with things like that is how impossible it is to balance. I'm more referring to a game like MW2 where most guns killed in 2-3 shots, where lag is noticeable in terms of knifing. Obviously in a game where you need 4 bullets to kill it's gonna be a lot easier to knife.
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cat
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Post by cat on Feb 16, 2015 20:40:01 GMT -5
I'd like to see those:
1. Customizable melee, melee cathegory. Bash with the gun by default, knocking with legs, commando-styled charge with elbow, whatever. Melee should not be instakill unless you're putting customization points in it. If knife gonna stay, i'd like to see it as proficiency along with body multipliers to prevent deaths from slashing foots or arms. Additionally i like the way knifing worked in Ghosts. You should take time penalty for killing with melee, which once again could be avoided by paying with customization points.
2. Perks not being separated by tiers but rather by categories. Sort of Ghosts' pick 11 system but allowing only one perk from Stealh, Handling, Speed etc. by default unless something sacrificed for having two/three. As an alternative - upgrade X system which allows you create various levels for same perk enhancing its abilities, like customizing streaks.
3. Unlimited sprint, 90% for heavy weapons.
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Feb 16, 2015 21:29:26 GMT -5
For the Reflex Blade, replace it with a shove, you panic shove a guy and it knocks him into sort of a final stand animation, both players get a weapon lowered type of penalty, the guy that got shoved is locked into hipefire only and unable to get up for a second or two. As for the re-raise, say if both players have SMGs the shoving player should be ready ever so slightly faster, or maybe just have the shoved player lose 20 percent health or something. If say a guy with an LMG does the shoving, his weapon will re-ready later than an SMG shovee and he's likely to lose the fight despite having gotten the shove in. Either player can achieve a near-instant swap to a pistol sidearm, encouraging more players sinking a point into them. Laggy autoaim and pure reflex would thus be replaced by a little pistol gunskill minigame. Maybe have a pistol attachment (some kind of sick-ass holster?) that makes the swap faster and automatic in shove situations.
If you shove a guy next to a ledge maybe you get some bonus damage based on height, up to an outright kill if they fall a story (in a more traditional non-jump jet sort of COD that is). If you shove a guy from behind that knocks him prone and gives you an execution animation. They have no recourse but a teammate can interrupt the animation by shooting the shover dead before it completes. If you shove someone from behind that's peaking a window or something you get a fast head-smash execution animation that can't be canceled.
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Post by jaedrik on Feb 16, 2015 21:46:54 GMT -5
Make knife do zero damage. With this change, panic knifers will be punished out of their unfair muscle memory advantage they've accumulated with past cods.
Cone of Fire out the heezy. Guns are still too lethal in this series. It would be great if everything was just slowed down, and CoF helps slow down killing time. Alternatively add a few BTK at all ranges for all guns.
Nerf explosives into the abyss. I hate dying to dishonorable grenade husbandos who can't fight like REAL men with Assault Rifles. Same thing with shotguns and snipers but we can only say three sooooo. LMGs are perfectly balanced.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Feb 16, 2015 23:17:00 GMT -5
Cone of Fire out the heezy. Guns are still too lethal in this series Then go play a different game.
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fpsdredd
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Post by fpsdredd on Feb 16, 2015 23:24:35 GMT -5
Keeping with the spirit of the post. 3 things I would change to the core CoD experience:
1. Add a cancel mechanic where you can cancel all self inflicted animation locks. E.g. Climbing a ledge, exo dash, reloads, weapon swaps. Creating a mechanic like this aligns the game with where I think it should go i.e. Call of Duty should be a thinking man's game where you can think your way through problems. Over time 'muscle memory' takes over and then it's on to bigger and more interesting problems.
2. The game is about appeasing the masses - that won't change. Educate the masses. Teach them to love your game as much as some of us do. Maybe there will be a change in the mindset. What if strategy becomes the primary talking point instead of OP guns, broken game, lag etc. (e.g. a thorough understanding of lag compensation will definitely reduce complaints about getting shot around the corner)
3. Once you do the previous, maybe now you'll have the balls to get the community interacting with each other socially. Start building some community into this game.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 16, 2015 23:55:19 GMT -5
Cone of Fire out the heezy. Guns are still too lethal in this series Then go play a different game. I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic and mocking the knife hatred, as well as the opinion that weapons are too strong. Also, as for the "animation cancelling".. we used to have that for reloading and swapping. Of course that was a skill gap extender, so it had to go. There is also a nice weapon raise cancel for ladder climbing, but its not very applicable with exo jumping. Might have been fixed, too.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Feb 17, 2015 0:03:35 GMT -5
I can never tell with Jaedrik
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Post by jaedrik on Feb 17, 2015 0:19:10 GMT -5
true facts/10
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pachiderm
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Post by pachiderm on Feb 17, 2015 2:18:45 GMT -5
3) All guns shoot projectiles instead of hitscans tied to framerate. Not sure how feasible this is without the original IW (now Respawn) team. I doubt there is anybody left that has any idea how the core of the engine works. This would dramatically change the way the game plays. Projectiles have their own issues, one of the most important of which is that your latency can affect how quickly they're created. Have you ever tried to RPG someone's feet on a 3 bar and found that, not only did you die, but the rocket that you fired on your screen never materialized? There are ways to do projectiles well, but considering how the game already works I see no reason to swap a working hitscan system for a projectile system that requires a ton of work just to function at the same level.
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Post by thegentleman on Feb 17, 2015 4:40:26 GMT -5
Yeah, let me just reiterate that I'd really like to see your guys' 3 changes as well, as FPS, cat, and Will have thrown out there.
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Post by iw5000 on Feb 17, 2015 9:48:43 GMT -5
Okay, why not engage in a little bit of harmless armchair game balancing? While looking at Netcode and matchmaking and all of that is an easy scapegoat, I'd have no idea how to fix it. Instead, why not focus on elements of the CoD franchise that can be altered in ways that we can understand? What 3 changes would you make to the "core" CoD experience?Here would be what I would alter. Granted, some people might not agree with this, but if I suddenly became a silent partner over at IW/SHG/Treyarch, this is what I'd be pushing hard for in the next franchise as changes I feel are long overdue. 1. No knifing if you've been shot first.Ideally, the knife is a stealth weapon. In every action movie, people only bring out the knife when they're sneaking around and have the drop on someone. If you stab someone, you know where they are (presumably) and they don't know where you are. Silent One Hit Kill. I'm fine with that. But ever since I started playing with BOII, having people soak up two or three rounds to stab me is the epitome of stupid. If you're being shot at as you go to knife, it means your opponent KNOWS you're there. And if you win that fight, it means you've just beaten a rifle in a gunfight. So basically, you can't knife if you're not at full health. I'd switch it up so that if you're closing in on someone from behind, you commando lunge and shiv them. I just hate the Reflex Blade idiocy. Brilliant suggestion. Knifing is stupid. It's a gimmick thing for people who can't shoot, that takes advantage of 500 to 1,000ms lag difference. I would also add with it, that the knife animation-kill goes to a very extended sequence like in BF. Like take 1.5 to 2 seconds. If you want to knife (to stay off the radar), it's going to take you longer to kill.
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Post by strokedem on Feb 17, 2015 10:37:56 GMT -5
Honestly I'd rather just get rid of the knife on Analog This^^ make it to where you can only knife if you have a knife out. If you have your gun out they can make it where you hit them with the stock of your gun and it does 50% damage.
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Post by noscreenname on Feb 17, 2015 10:42:10 GMT -5
Bring back: 1. Stopping Power 2. Juggernaut 3. Commando (not the gun)
Semi-joking but I honestly miss the basic trade-off advantage/disadvantage perks. Now it has just all become a jumbled mess. Also, I see no problem with knifing because everyone can do it.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Feb 17, 2015 12:06:36 GMT -5
I see no problem with knifing because everyone can do it. Faulty logic. If we made the EM1 a one hit kill at any range, it would be available to everyone, but would still clearly break the game.
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Post by noscreenname on Feb 17, 2015 13:59:24 GMT -5
I see no problem with knifing because everyone can do it. Faulty logic. If we made the EM1 a one hit kill at any range, it would be available to everyone, but would still clearly break the game. How is that analogy relevant though? It is not a gun. It is a melee. So is boost slam op broke too? It is 1hk.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 17, 2015 14:58:27 GMT -5
I think it is, and it definitely could be for certain with a large radius. His analogy is wholly relevant
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Post by Megaqwerty on Feb 17, 2015 15:02:24 GMT -5
How is that analogy relevant though? It is not a gun. It is a melee. So is boost slam op broke too? It is 1hk. It's not about one hit kills; it's about an option being available to all players. Just because all players have access to the same option does not make that option balanced in of itself.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 17, 2015 15:02:39 GMT -5
Two or more perks from the same tier needs to go; defeats the purpose of tiers. Also put Dead Silence and footsteps back in game but make it in the same tier as Spoopy Ghost.
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Post by noscreenname on Feb 17, 2015 15:06:06 GMT -5
How is that analogy relevant though? It is not a gun. It is a melee. So is boost slam op broke too? It is 1hk. It's not about one hit kills; it's about an option being available to all players. Just because all players have access to the same option does not make that option balanced in of itself. Is the knife that everyone has access to more or less balanced than the obsidian steel that not everyone has? Or even to some extent guns that are late unlocks?
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 17, 2015 15:07:16 GMT -5
Straw man argument detected
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Post by noscreenname on Feb 17, 2015 15:09:25 GMT -5
And your argument is the knife is soooo op? Ok.
Just because you hit r2 when you should have hit r3 is your wrong choice. Not the melee range or damage's fault.
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