ZaTaisho
True Bro
【 W A R S T R E A K S 】
Posts: 520
|
Post by ZaTaisho on Mar 24, 2015 16:28:40 GMT -5
Hey guys, it's been awhile, but I'm going to make this pretty quick.
I'm sure that this debate has already run its course before, but I want to know... Between the sound perks, Dead Silence and Amplify, what do you believe should be the case for both of these abilities?
Here are the instances I can think of:
① - Dead Silence removes player noise (footsteps). Amplify increases the overall noise from enemy players & cancels out Dead Silence users. ② - Remove Amplify: All players without Dead Silence can be heard. ③ - Amplify removes all friendly noise (including player's): Enemies without Dead Silence can only be heard, without friendly noise in the way. ④ - Remove BOTH Dead Silence and Amplify: You hear what you hear. ⑤ - Remove Dead Silence: Depending on the ability, either Amplify users can hear only the enemy OR increases all noise. ⑥ - Dead Silence removes player noise, Amplify increases overall noise: Dead Silence users remain silent, Amplify hears everyone but DS users.
I personally like ③ because both perks would then play both parts of the spectrum, and is what I believe that should've been done at the start. Dead Silence affects the player's noise, but only that player can't be heard. Amplify affects the player's hearing, but the noise is still present for everyone.
Let me know what you think and why you chose your option.
|
|
banana
True Banana
Zoro > Law
Posts: 1,577
|
Post by banana on Mar 24, 2015 16:53:09 GMT -5
I'd go with 4 because those perks are usually mandatory and that's lame. Plus I don't have a headset so it'll even the playing field
|
|
pachiderm
True Bro
Chewing some serious leaves
Posts: 647
|
Post by pachiderm on Mar 24, 2015 17:20:25 GMT -5
2
|
|
|
Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Mar 24, 2015 20:17:53 GMT -5
Seems like amplify is pointless unless the game has atrocious footstep sounds. I vote 2. Then again I don't really care about sound or whether or not I generate it. I don't play comp, most players follow predictable patterns, and I always assume people know that I'm coming.
|
|
ZaTaisho
True Bro
【 W A R S T R E A K S 】
Posts: 520
|
Post by ZaTaisho on Mar 27, 2015 11:39:59 GMT -5
Another idea that I had for a long time now, I've always had this thought that Dead Silence should reduce the noise by X%, but the perk effect doesn't apply when a player is sprinting. Following this effect, I'd say that Amplify would increase the noise by X%, canceling out Dead Silence users, but those without Dead Silence would have increased noise, BUT the effect only works when not moving. I don't know about the Amplify effect option, but what do you guys think about that? Somewhat on the right track?
|
|
Will
True Bro
K/D below 1.0
Posts: 1,309
|
Post by Will on Mar 27, 2015 12:02:59 GMT -5
I like #2. Perks should be competitive with each other based on the benefit they give, not on negating one another. Or do it like Mousey said, where Amplify/Sitrep does not cancel out Dead Silence.
|
|
asasa
True Bro
fuck
Posts: 4,255
|
Post by asasa on Mar 27, 2015 12:47:15 GMT -5
am i reading this right or is there no option for having both abilities exist but have DS not get canceled out cuz thats my vote. Leave amplify tacked onto sitrep, have dead silence mute the player no questions asked. put it in a game where every other yellow perk isnt a steaming pile of shit and you have yourself a cod. So amplify would be even worse..? Canceling out is already in favor of the dead silence user. Now if amplify silenced teammates, then maybe ds could remain silent.. But probably still shit
|
|
asasa
True Bro
fuck
Posts: 4,255
|
Post by asasa on Mar 27, 2015 13:00:45 GMT -5
No, it's inherent that dead silence is favored. Ds user hears enemy normally, amplify user hears enemy relatively quietly.
Also, seeing equipment was important in mw3 considering how good it was
|
|
ZaTaisho
True Bro
【 W A R S T R E A K S 】
Posts: 520
|
Post by ZaTaisho on Mar 27, 2015 14:10:19 GMT -5
am i reading this right or is there no option for having both abilities exist but have DS not get canceled out And yes, you were reading it correctly. I went ahead and added it to the OP. Hopefully that's what you mean.
|
|
|
Post by Megaqwerty on Mar 27, 2015 17:56:10 GMT -5
The way Amplify and Dead Silence worked in Ghosts was that Amplify users could hear Dead Silence users, but DS movement was extremely quiet relative to normal players (as in, quieter than a normal movement without Amplify). This made it possible to still hear DS movement, but usually impractical since they would sound like normal players that much farther from you. However, compared with good map awareness, it was still possible to hear DS movement, but this was rare.
In contrast, MW3 had Sit Rep cancel out Dead Silence in its entirety so that it was as if neither player had the respective perk and this was entirely broken as it infinitely favored tactical loitering with Sit Rep.
I much preferred Ghosts' setup and thought it was the best implementation thus far.
That said, Dead Silence alone is useful as it removes the sound of your own footsteps, making it easier to hear other players that do not use it.
I agree with the rodent in that DS is more offensive and Amplify is more defensive, but Amplify can be easily used offensive by using to enhancing your senses as you rush.
|
|
asasa
True Bro
fuck
Posts: 4,255
|
Post by asasa on Mar 27, 2015 19:49:00 GMT -5
It favors them in the direct confrontation 1 on 1 of two people running around, but the game is more complicated than that. DS only does its job when they cant be heard and a DS user plays as though thats the case. When they can be heard, their strategy fails and they have to play as though they didnt have the perk anyway. An amplify user plays as though he can hear anyone. You can hold areas more effectively and are able to constantly adjust to cover various entrances because you can hear people ahead of time. If he merely hears someone quieter, then its still doing its job. Honestly it takes a complete idiot to get screwed on just that. If DS users totally silence it, then DS obviously has the advantage; but thats why I'm in favor of amplify being merged with sitrep again. Additionally, Amplify is a boon to defense/tactical loitering, while DS only really has offensive application. Amplify encourages you to play in ways where you arent even walking around much to begin with. DS doesnt and is completely worthless at any time that it isnt actively making you unheard when you otherwise would be. Mechanically they cancel out, but assuming you dont make your classes with a randomizer, and actually have like...reasons for using the perks you select, the canceling out hurts the DS users playstyle much more than amplify. Amplify is good for playing against bad players. DS is a necessity against good players. It's kinda dumb that they even exist, I suppose. I really don't imagine a DS user being audible to Amplify users mattering though. Too many other sounds and they aren't going to be concerned about normal volume footsteps
|
|
ZaTaisho
True Bro
【 W A R S T R E A K S 】
Posts: 520
|
Post by ZaTaisho on Mar 27, 2015 20:10:37 GMT -5
To better clarify why I like ③, this is one way I envision them to act:Dead SilenceThis perk (or ability) allows one to silence their own footsteps completely to avoid enemy detection. Dead Silence users cannot be heard by any player, including Amplify users, for footsteps are silenced. Dead Silence will only silence the user's footsteps, however, all other existing sounds will remain present. The purpose of this ability is to silence one's footsteps to prevent enemy detection via audio queues. AmplifyThis perk (or ability) allows one to silence all friendly footsteps completely where only the enemy's footsteps can be heard. Amplify users will not be able to hear Dead Silence users, for their footsteps are silenced. Amplify will only silence the sounds of friendly footsteps, not the actual players themselves, so all sounds remain present to other players, including the enemy. The purpose of this ability is to hear enemy footsteps clearly without the confusion of trying to differentiate between friend or foe.
Even though the possibility of everyone having Dead Silence and/or Amplify on is very possible, both perks would then cancel each other out in both ways, rather than one being most dominate than the other. For example:- If all players were to use Dead Silence, then no enemy's footsteps can be heard, but all friendly footsteps can.
- If all players were to use Amplify, then all players can hear the footsteps of every enemy.
- If all players were to use BOTH Dead Silence and Amplify, no one can hear each other on either side.
I mean, of course there can be many ways to do this: - Dead Silence completely silences all sounds from the user, like Ninja Pro in Black Ops 2.
- Dead Silence reduces the default volume of footsteps (as it does now).
- Amplify increases the volume of enemy footsteps (as it does now).
- Amplify drowns out all friendly sounds, making it so that only the enemy can be heard completely.
- Amplify drowns out all sounds from friendly footsteps, but doesn't drowns out the user's.
These are just examples, but if you think one option is best, let me know. By default, the sound of footsteps should be relatively easy to hear by any player, regardless of other noises (i.e. gunfire, aircraft, explosions, etc...) 100%|― ― ― ― ―|― ― ― ― ―| Default Dead Silence users have the sound of their footsteps silenced, where no player can hear their footsteps, but all other sounds can be heard.0% ← ← ← 100%|― ― ― ― ―|― ― ― ― ―| DS Default Amplify users will not hear enemies louder, but instead silence the sound of friendly footsteps, but although gone, the sounds still exist to other players. 100% → → → 100%|― ― ― ― ―|― ― ― ― ―| Default AMP A player with BOTH Dead Silence and Amplify will have both sides of the spectrum.0% ← ← ← 100% → → → 100%|― ― ― ― ―|― ― ― ― ―| DS Default AMP
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 0:51:50 GMT -5
I am legally obligated to post this.
|
|
|
Post by kylet357 on Mar 30, 2015 2:09:09 GMT -5
I actually want to watch that movie now.
|
|
n1gh7
True Bro
Black Market Dealer
Posts: 11,718
|
Post by n1gh7 on Mar 30, 2015 17:02:04 GMT -5
I like 7⃣
|
|
|
Post by dunsparceflinch on Mar 30, 2015 17:22:16 GMT -5
What about having footsteps be like BO2 post-patch, but have awareness and dead silence combined into one perk?
|
|
|
Post by Megaqwerty on Mar 30, 2015 18:56:07 GMT -5
I am opposed to combining the perks. It's analogous to combining Juggernaut and Stopping Power.
|
|
|
Post by kylet357 on Mar 30, 2015 23:12:00 GMT -5
Isn't that what Ninja from BO did? Combine the Dead Silence and Sitrep effects?
|
|
|
Post by dunsparceflinch on Mar 31, 2015 0:10:50 GMT -5
I am opposed to combining the perks. It's analogous to combining Juggernaut and Stopping Power. But what if it's in a game where the footstep sounds are weak in the first place, like BO2?
|
|
|
Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 31, 2015 19:10:37 GMT -5
I am legally obligated to post this.
|
|
|
Post by hard1ine on Apr 5, 2015 18:58:14 GMT -5
Dead Silence should be built in for all players, along with Toughness. Sound and flinch perks are staples for nearly every class in most CoD games, and this needs to be addressed. Wasting four points on Focus/Dead Silence for almost all of my classes on Ghosts got boring really fast.
|
|
|
Post by Megaqwerty on Apr 6, 2015 13:04:15 GMT -5
Dead Silence should be built in for all players Condrey hears you loud and clear. Or he would, if foot steps made sound in this game.
|
|
PSIII
True Bro
Is a Contender
Posts: 275
|
Post by PSIII on May 19, 2015 2:12:29 GMT -5
I just had to reply to this, regardless of its age, but the right way (as mentioned already by someone above) is what Ghosts did. Sitrep/Amplify (I prefer it being on Sitrep like in MW2/3) simply should lessen the effect of Dead Silence. I honestly have no idea why this issue has been debated for so long. People who complained about sound in the IW games just need to actually use their ears and brains.
@mousey: MW3 was pretty close, in regards to the third tier perks that is. All five were good choices and were usable in certain class setups (Steady Aim and Sitrep were the best).
|
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on May 19, 2015 8:54:25 GMT -5
I just had to reply to this, regardless of its age, but the right way (as mentioned already by someone above) is what Ghosts did. Sitrep/Amplify (I prefer it being on Sitrep like in MW2/3) simply should lessen the effect of Dead Silence. I honestly have no idea why this issue has been debated for so long. People who complained about sound in the IW games just need to actually use their ears and brains. You're on about a shooter that places a significant role on visual intelligence (e.g. tactical camera in Black Ops, Blackbirds and UAVs, red box over character models when using a player controlled killstreak, killcams etc), so expecting players to use their intuition and other senses is probably a bit much for some. Listening out for footstep sounds should be a legitimate strategy but I guess its the extent where everyone differs. My main issue with overly quiet or silent enemy footsteps is that it might make using less mobile weapons even less ideal than they sometimes are, like LMGs in Black Ops 2 taking longer to reload than calling in a care package and forcing Adjustable Stock unless you want to pretend to be the Juggernaut killstreak in MW3.
|
|
PSIII
True Bro
Is a Contender
Posts: 275
|
Post by PSIII on May 19, 2015 13:48:17 GMT -5
You're on about a shooter that places a significant role on visual intelligence (e.g. tactical camera in Black Ops, Blackbirds and UAVs, red box over character models when using a player controlled killstreak, killcams etc), so expecting players to use their intuition and other senses is probably a bit much for some. Listening out for footstep sounds should be a legitimate strategy but I guess its the extent where everyone differs. My main issue with overly quiet or silent enemy footsteps is that it might make using less mobile weapons even less ideal than they sometimes are, like LMGs in Black Ops 2 taking longer to reload than calling in a care package and forcing Adjustable Stock unless you want to pretend to be the Juggernaut killstreak in MW3. It's not just visual. The games place a significant emphasis on auditory intelligence (of course visual is number one, because it's a video game). The evidence is all around. IW making footsteps very audible in their games and including perks relating to sound. Each gun has its distinctive sound letting more perceptive players know what gun an enemy is using, the stupid stuff like that lounge room in BO2 Plaza playing that useless/distracting music, etc. Those who choose to use sound to their advantage shouldn't be held back because of players who don't or are not able to (at least at the same capacity). You have a good point about less mobile weapons, but it works the other way. You may move slow, but wouldn't you want those slower sprints to still be quiet? Also, that's the issue with most players. You mentioned Stalker/AS (words in CoD which makes me sigh after several years now), and it just promotes slow, limited gameplay. I find players that overly rely on it are the ones that don't use sound to its fullest extent (I never ran them with LMGs). The reasons for it being debated are clearly because ninja is much more reliant on complete effectiveness than sitrep. Ive already gone into detail on that multiple times and im not bothering again. It didnt force people to "use their ears and brains." It did the exact opposite. It took any and all thought out of positioning by telling the sitrep player exactly where everyone was. and the yellow perks were terribly balanced. Stalker was the only other perk that wasnt horribly niche. I meant those who complained that sound was too good or that either perk was too powerful, not those who hadquslms about how the two perks were set up between each other. I myself was OK with how both MW2/3 did them, although I know Ghosts did it best. I don't fully agree with IW's decision on changing how Sitrep worked halfway through MW3's life though. Before that patch, a lot of people complained about how Dead Silence was immune to Sitrep. So they just reversed it instead of just going halfway and lessen the silenced footsteps. I've put significant hours on both console and PC on a few of the games and sound is absolutely key on PC. It's hardly a issue/debate there except for when games have bad sound (like BO) to begin with. You either use the two perks or you don't (most obviously do of course) and you listen to every single footstep and try to get the jump on opponents. That's what I meant about using your ears and brains. I bring the same mindset into the console meta and it's a huge advantage. And there it is again, Stalker. Wish they never brought it into the series. Now everyone just walls around aiming down the sights most of the time. It certainly is not better than the rest in MW3, except for Marksman, obviously. Steady Aim is THE best because of its Pro effect. I've learned to run without Sitrep in favor of SA and I still can hear fine. As I said before, the third tier perks were all usable. Stalker is the niche/crutch, especially if you run higher sensitivities. Not that it should matter that much in MW3, where Specialist exists. I will concede to the awkward balance of the third tier perks in MW2 though. It was either Ninja or Sitrep in that game.
|
|
|
Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on May 19, 2015 13:50:22 GMT -5
The reasons for it being debated are clearly because ninja is much more reliant on complete effectiveness than sitrep. Ive already gone into detail on that multiple times and im not bothering again. It didnt force people to "use their ears and brains." It did the exact opposite. It took any and all thought out of positioning by telling the sitrep player exactly where everyone was. and the yellow perks were terribly balanced. Stalker was the only other perk that wasnt horribly niche. But what a niche Marksman was. Wallhack in perk form.
|
|
|
Post by Megaqwerty on May 19, 2015 15:06:01 GMT -5
and the yellow perks were terribly balanced. Stalker was the only other perk that wasnt horribly niche. What game did you play? That tier was Marksman, Sit Rep, Steady Aim, Stalker, and Dead Silence. But what a niche Marksman was. Wallhack in perk form. ...well, aside from Assassin canceling the effect entirely, which should have been nerfed out. Guys, I found the inspiration for Advanced Warfare's foot step audio balance:
|
|
|
Post by Megaqwerty on May 19, 2015 16:52:20 GMT -5
Tighter hip spread is good and all, but it's the reduced sprint out that makes the perk competitive.
Weakest perk is definitely Marksman simply due to Assassin granting immunity. Was occasionally for seeing opponents at range or through cover (where it would be impossible to sound whore even with Sit Rep).
Dead Silence was still very powerful for high mobility classes. I didn't play much post-Sit Rep buff as that was late in the cycle, but the perks were quite even until that point.
|
|
|
Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on May 19, 2015 19:34:51 GMT -5
and the yellow perks were terribly balanced. Stalker was the only other perk that wasnt horribly niche. What game did you play? That tier was Marksman, Sit Rep, Steady Aim, Stalker, and Dead Silence. But what a niche Marksman was. Wallhack in perk form. ...well, aside from Assassin canceling the effect entirely, which should have been nerfed out. Guys, I found the inspiration for Advanced Warfare's foot step audio balance: Yeah but Assassin was relatively underused at least when I played. Mostly saw QuickDraw and Hardline. Which is why Assassin Pro+Marksman Pro+ suppressed ACR was just brutally good on some maps. Or even Marksman on some maps with a sniper allowed easy OHK wallbangs, like ad in the store overlooking B on Resistance.
|
|
|
Post by LeGitBeeSting on May 19, 2015 21:23:14 GMT -5
MW3 was dead to me even before the AA-12 nerf.
|
|