wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 4, 2015 14:08:32 GMT -5
This year this event is more significant than ever because: a) DLC one month exclusivity of CoD changed hands from XONE to PS4. Would the official platform for esports migrate as well? b) MSFT is going all in on Halo in terms of eSports, just announced million dollar prize pool for Halo 5 tournament. Can ActiVision match that on BLOP3? It is entirely possible that we will see a mass migration of current CoD pros to Halo if answer to a) is yes and answer to b) is no. Halo pro snip3down (captain of EG who have won both season 1 and season 2 finals this year, probably the best Halo player atm) has gone ahead and made the following prediction on twitter:
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Post by jaedrik on Aug 4, 2015 14:26:03 GMT -5
That's relying too much on hype, PR, and eSports. I think the divide in gameplay mechanics is what'll hold most players back from switching. They just won't like the way the other game's is. No prize pool can change that. Edit: I like to see high-level play of all games, though. :D
Edit 2: lel nevermind I misread the OP.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 4, 2015 14:46:33 GMT -5
That's relying too much on hype, PR, and eSports. I think the divide in gameplay mechanics is what'll hold most players back from switching. They just won't like the way the other game's is. No prize pool can change that. Edit: I like to see high-level play of all games, though. Halo 5 invitational is this Friday. 3 Euro teams + Optic Gaming from US will duke it out. If past is any indication, I think ActiVision and Treyarch will do something similar as well. One thing I like Halo 5's chance in eSports (besides my bias as a huge Halo fan ) is because we finally have a console FPS game in which the pub play and pro play are seamlessly integrated. Halo 5's Arena MP will feature visible ranked divisions of Iron -> Bronze -> Silver -> Gold -> Onyx -> Semi-pro -> Pro (pro = top 200 players with completely visible leaderboard). For bros who play tennis, his system is almost exactly like the USTA's NTRP system for tennis in US. Because pub players and pro players will be playing exactly the same setup, there won't be a disconnect so I expect the viewership of tournaments to go much higher. With big money on the top and solid game play experience all across regardless what skill level a player is at (based on my personal experience of playing Halo 5 Beta), a healthy pyramid of skills can be formed, making eSports a more serious consideration for lots more players. MSFT and 343i are also going all in on eSports investment, including hiring previous pro players into the company as consultants on game design from the very beginning, and setting up a tournament structure (called "HCS") that includes online cups, LAN tournaments of various prize pools, and season finals throughout the year where the top 8 games compete for grand prize.
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wittyscorpion
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All warfare is based on deception.
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 4, 2015 17:35:30 GMT -5
ActiVision announced earnings today, and in conference call, CEO made a few remarks on eSports:
1) they’re planning the best and most robust eSports season with Black Ops 3; 2) eSports is a "great focus" for the company across Activision and Blizzard titles. they're just in the "first-inning.";
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PSIII
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Post by PSIII on Aug 5, 2015 2:42:21 GMT -5
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 5, 2015 10:05:21 GMT -5
That's relying too much on hype, PR, and eSports. I think the divide in gameplay mechanics is what'll hold most players back from switching. They just won't like the way the other game's is. No prize pool can change that. Edit: I like to see high-level play of all games, though. I would disagree. Many of the current ESports CoD players come from Halo. In fact, there were a few years where CoD wasn't even on the ESports radar. The players will swap around and follow the money. Shooting is shooting on game for the most part, and the rest (spawns, patterns, etc..) is all easily transferrable.
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 5, 2015 10:07:03 GMT -5
hey Witty...
Is Halo's esport team stuff, is it 3v3? 4v4?
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 5, 2015 10:09:58 GMT -5
hey Witty... Is Halo's esport team stuff, is it 3v3? 4v4? Halo's primary format is 4v4. All tournaments with big money are of this format. There are 2v2 tournaments once in a while, but the prize pool is pretty small.
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wittyscorpion
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All warfare is based on deception.
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 5, 2015 12:17:48 GMT -5
The BLOP3 eSports reveal is ongoing, so far: 1) looks like PS4 is definitely going to be the official platform. PlayStation twitter account is promoting the reveal, and all games of the reveal as well as open console play at Gamescomm are on PS4; 2) No prize pool info is released; CharlieIntel tweet stream does a pretty good job of capturing headlines: twitter.com/charlieINTELMy notes: a) The idea of Specialist (kinda like Super ability from Destiny) is adding a tactical component into the eSports. Not sure how it will affect the balancing of game play; b) The new competitive setting called "Ban and Protect" let the two teams take turns to ban or protect a loadout option (e.g.: no UAV, protect Annihilator). This adds another tactical components into the eSports before a game even start;
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 5, 2015 12:44:38 GMT -5
Von from Treyarch gave some details on the ranked play:
1) It is now called "Arena" (same name as Halo 5) to replace the previous "League Play"; 2) ranked on wins and wins alone; 3) 20 ranks, with Master Devision on top (similar to Halo 5's divisions); 4) Every 5 ranks, you have to string together more wins to go to next level; 5) You have to lose 2 games to be demoted in ranks; 6) Guard against quitting: quit = 2 losses (what I heard, not sure if I heard it accurately); 7) Guard against reverse boosting (did not catch what he said on details);
In a nutshell, this system has almost identical design as Halo 5 (even the total number of ranks are similar: Halo 5 has 3 * 5 + 2 = 17), both aimed at providing seamless transition from pub play to pro play. Hopefully more players can be attracted into ranked play on CoD side, which has not been very popular in the last 3 CoD games.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 5, 2015 12:51:00 GMT -5
eSports game modes revealed so far:
1) SnD (of course); 2) Hardpoint; 3) Uplink; 4) CTF;
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 5, 2015 12:58:10 GMT -5
Von is on stage talking about improvements of codcasting features, which I don't really care . However he revealed a potentially killer eSports feature that I as an average viewer can be very interested in: For big events that Treyarch picks to broadcast live I guess. Hopefully this means that I can control which player to watch all by myself, and use all the spectator features that available to codcasters.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 5, 2015 13:15:58 GMT -5
To conclude the reveal stream: Von has stated that "PlayStation is the new home of Call of Duty eSports." No surprise there. The eSports extension of the console war is now BLOPS 3 vs. Halo 5. We will see which side will pour more money into the tournaments. All in all, it is good news for players who want to go pro. P.S. CoD eSports twitter account: twitter.com/eSportsCODHalo eSports twitter account: twitter.com/HCS
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 5, 2015 14:37:46 GMT -5
Sounds wonderful.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 5, 2015 14:48:03 GMT -5
One thing I did not see mentioning, and I do hope got carried from BLOP2, is to open up all loadout options in Rank Play. This time around I won't have time to prestige 10 times just to unlock everything, as in BLOP2.
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 5, 2015 15:10:56 GMT -5
One thing I did not see mentioning, and I do hope got carried from BLOP2, is to open up all loadout options in Rank Play. This time around I won't have time to prestige 10 times just to unlock everything, as in BLOP2. I believe everything was opened up in BO2, when doing ranked play. At least the stuff that was 'esports' approved (some items were banned on that playlist) I would imagine, BO2 will follow the same formula. The problems BO3 needs to fix is 1) long wait times on ranked play, 2) DOS'ing, 4) lack of clarity on how to rank, and 4) better rewards. if they fix those four things, League play might be viable. if they don't, it will probably be a graveyard again.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 5, 2015 15:31:13 GMT -5
One thing I did not see mentioning, and I do hope got carried from BLOP2, is to open up all loadout options in Rank Play. This time around I won't have time to prestige 10 times just to unlock everything, as in BLOP2. I believe everything was opened up in BO2, when doing ranked play. At least the stuff that was 'esports' approved (some items were banned on that playlist) I would imagine, BO2 will follow the same formula. The problems BO3 needs to fix is 1) long wait times on ranked play, 2) DOS'ing, 4) lack of clarity on how to rank, and 4) better rewards. if they fix those four things, League play might be viable. if they don't, it will probably be a graveyard again. Good to know the 4 issues BO2 had. BO3 did address the lack of clarity on how to rank up: this time around the system is much easier to understand. Halo 5 beta also proved that it is a fairly practical and robust system. The next important thing is to let player feel there are huge incentive to go into ranked play. In general I think the bragging rights from ranking is a good enough carrot (way more worth bragging than K/D), provided the ranking system is easy to understand and fair. Also, the rankings should be friendly to solo players (at least at "less serious" ranking levels), because lots of CoD players at the lower half of the skill pyramid play lone wolf. If BO3 can change players perspectives from going after high K/Ds and killstreaks to getting to higher ranks, the popularity of rank play will increase and that will address the long wait time problem. With a solid ranking system in place that have a healthy level of player count, the rest is simple: put in good systems to prevent or severely punish quitting / cheating / reverse boosting and reap the benefits of seeing high player engagements and forming of healthy skill pyramid.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 5, 2015 15:39:13 GMT -5
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Post by PSIII on Aug 5, 2015 16:17:06 GMT -5
You know you could maybe edit instead of making new replies, right? lol That's relying too much on hype, PR, and eSports. I think the divide in gameplay mechanics is what'll hold most players back from switching. They just won't like the way the other game's is. No prize pool can change that. Edit: I like to see high-level play of all games, though. I would disagree. Many of the current ESports CoD players come from Halo. In fact, there were a few years where CoD wasn't even on the ESports radar. The players will swap around and follow the money. Shooting is shooting on game for the most part, and the rest (spawns, patterns, etc..) is all easily transferrable. Follow the money? The money's at PS4 right now, with CoD leading the wagon. This ain't 2005, the masses aren't going to switch to Halo, an exclusive, because a couple Halo fans go back to it for competitive play. Microsoft just spiced it up with the cash pool, but when Activision counters with their own, it'll be justa split base, with CoD being more popular of course.
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Post by jaedrik on Aug 5, 2015 16:27:11 GMT -5
That's relying too much on hype, PR, and eSports. I think the divide in gameplay mechanics is what'll hold most players back from switching. They just won't like the way the other game's is. No prize pool can change that. Edit: I like to see high-level play of all games, though. :D I would disagree. Many of the current ESports CoD players come from Halo. In fact, there were a few years where CoD wasn't even on the ESports radar. The players will swap around and follow the money. Shooting is shooting on game for the most part, and the rest (spawns, patterns, etc..) is all easily transferrable. Oh--OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I didn't see the "pro" part of "It is entirely possible that we will see a mass migration of current CoD pros to Halo if..." I thought he meant just players in general.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 5, 2015 17:47:49 GMT -5
You know you could maybe edit instead of making new replies, right? lol I would disagree. Many of the current ESports CoD players come from Halo. In fact, there were a few years where CoD wasn't even on the ESports radar. The players will swap around and follow the money. Shooting is shooting on game for the most part, and the rest (spawns, patterns, etc..) is all easily transferrable. Follow the money? The money's at PS4 right now, with CoD leading the wagon. This ain't 2005, the masses aren't going to switch to Halo, an exclusive, because a couple Halo fans go back to it for competitive play. Microsoft just spiced it up with the cash pool, but when Activision counters with their own, it'll be justa split base, with CoD being more popular of course. As jaedrik just discovered in the post above, the "follow the money" comment is in the context of pro players following the prize pool money. We are not talking about which console is more popular with the general public. Console War is a "dead horse" topic that we don't need to discuss any more. We are also not talking about the popularity of CoD vs. Halo. There is no doubt that CoD is much more popular than Halo. With that established, essentially we are saying the same thing. The key here is whether ATVI can match up on prize money for pro tournaments. If CoD is comparable to Halo, then CoD pros will just switch to PS4. If ATVI is not willing to shed cash like MSFT, existing CoD pros and new pros-wanna-be will seriously consider Halo. At the end of the day, if you want to make a living off playing FPS video games, Halo and CoD are not that different to the point that you would strongly prefer one over the other despite earning much less money. I personally don't care who wins. As long as there is a healthy competition it is a good thing. Appendix: HCS tournament structure (since December last year when it was started): halo.esportspedia.com/wiki/Halo_Championship_Series
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 5, 2015 18:42:25 GMT -5
Replay of the live stream on YouTube, FYI:
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Post by banana on Aug 6, 2015 0:42:59 GMT -5
so was there any esports gameplay?
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 6, 2015 8:03:40 GMT -5
You know you could maybe edit instead of making new replies, right? lol I would disagree. Many of the current ESports CoD players come from Halo. In fact, there were a few years where CoD wasn't even on the ESports radar. The players will swap around and follow the money. Shooting is shooting on game for the most part, and the rest (spawns, patterns, etc..) is all easily transferrable. Follow the money? The money's at PS4 right now, with CoD leading the wagon. This ain't 2005, the masses aren't going to switch to Halo, an exclusive, because a couple Halo fans go back to it for competitive play. Microsoft just spiced it up with the cash pool, but when Activision counters with their own, it'll be justa split base, with CoD being more popular of course. You need to look at the prior history psiii - Who will fund this? The only money Sony (via PS) has put into anything right now are payments to Activision for the exclusivity to CoD. Things like timing of releases, content, DLC, etc. Yes, that now includes being the official platform for hosting MLG LAN events too. The problem? Sony (to the best my knowledge), has not released any information on whether they are going to continue the CoD World Championships that have occurred the three past years. - As I think you are aware, it wasn't Activision that funded the CoD Championship, it was Microsoft. Microsoft put up the $1 million in prize money, as well as probably a few million more in promotion and hosting. Will Sony continue this? We don't know...yet. So for right now, the money is not at PS. There is no money. - You are right, this isn't 2005. Maybe you should direct your memory to 2012 instead. CoD was dropped from all MLG events that year, with the release of MW3. For a multitude of reasons, that I won't get into right now. Point being game lifespans are extremely brief with ESports. A stiff breeze could instantly change the direction of everything, as there is little history. What once was, doesn't always stay the same. LoL had no real history, it became huge relatively overnight. CoD was left for dead, it revived. Halo was once big, it was dropped. Things change fast. - The reasons Halo was dropped had really nothing to do with ESports ratings. The problem was the release of Halo 4 introduced randomness to the core game, which could not be handled by the competitive community. The designers tried to spice up the game for the general public, at the expense of the comp scene. Instant boot from MLG. When you think about it, not much different from CoD, which mostly got the boot from MLG due to technical reasons (one of which was LAN support with MW3). Halo fixes those issues, there is no reason to think it will continue being excluded. - In terms of following the money, like I said, there is no 'official' money trail to follow right now. Going back to my first point, Microsoft is the one that mostly re-invigorated the whole CoD Esports scene with their mega-promotional push during spring of 2013, with the 1st ever CoD World Championships. That put CoD Esport comp scene back on the map, almost instantly. With that, the other reality is this. That event pretty much IS the entire purse structure for the CoD comp scene. The entire spring event schedule is pretty much lined up as qualifying events (I've done some of them). Everything after the event, is mostly smaller purse events in the $5k to $10k range. You remove 90% of the purse winnings available, what do you think is going to happen? Long story short......PS will need to step up and match what Microsoft did. If ...and that is still an 'if'....but if Microsoft comes out swinging and throws a few Million dollar purse events onto the Halo circuit, AND Sony doesn't match in kind, I would guess 1/2 the CoD pro scene players will instantly move over to Halo. You can take that to the bank. I would say at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the current CoD pro players have extensive Halo experience\ too. It's an easy switch. -
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 6, 2015 9:44:44 GMT -5
The CoD before and after the Microsoft CoD Championships was a night and day difference. You know? I'm not disagreeing that it wouldn't survive. It would. But there's still very little money going around in the scene right now. A few million Microsoft dollars and sponsorships would easily reignite a new scene. It takes very little, when no one has anything to start with.
And it terms of fading popularity, won't argue there when Halo 4 came around. After all, by 2011/2012, Halo was in it's 10th year, CoD (at least the MW series) was in it's 4th. MW was the new 'shiny' toy, Halo was a bit rusty and worn. But going with that, then what does it say for CoD in the present? Next year (2016) will be the 9th in the present CoD/MW/Treyarch MP experience, and it has definitely lost A LOT of it's shiny coating. The game is worn. It's easily lost half it's player base, if not more in the past two years.
I think the big question is if Treyarch can reignite the CoD spirit. And then the followup to that is this. If Treyarch can't, what type of long term stability can a Esport game like CoD have, if the masses aren't playing it? Yeah, the 'Comp Scene' can keep going, but the average joes who play it, is ultimately the fuel that keeps it going.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 6, 2015 10:28:28 GMT -5
Good discussion we are having here on pub vs. pro play. I think we all agree that while pro play can survive on its own as long as there are big prize pool, the popoularity of the game itself is the foundation. If eSports want to be like sports, it needs viewership, and viewership comes from players who play the game.
Both Halo 5 and Blops 3 are making the right move by introdcing ranked play that has consistent ranking from noob to pro. If this system can get good player engagement, they will fuel the eSports fire. On this front, Halo's ranked play has advantage because it is based on game's main appeal. CoD's main appreal on the other hand were mainly about k/d, scorestreaks, and pub stomp, making the ranked play feel foreign. That's why it never took off despite attempts from 3 games. Hopefully Blops3 can change that.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 6, 2015 11:07:20 GMT -5
Not to be left out: on the PC front treyarch just announced that Blops3 ranked play will feature dedicated servers.
Halo 5 will have dedis for everything: Arena (4v4 ranked play), Warzone (12v12+AI+vehicles big battle social play), and even campaign coop (I think). Dedis for Titanfall worked great, so I have high hopes on the Halo experience they provide.
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banana
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Post by banana on Aug 6, 2015 11:24:54 GMT -5
How is everyone using the same guns already?
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 6, 2015 11:27:55 GMT -5
How is everyone using the same guns already? Sorry I did not answer your question on where to watch pro play earlier. Looks like you found it In competitive play I fully expect weapon unity. There are always a handful set of weapons that outperform the rest. The new "Protect and Ban" system does introduce an interest twist. If you are an SMG player, and you hate a particular AR (say M8?), you can take it away using your ban vote.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 6, 2015 11:38:05 GMT -5
I think we all agree that while pro play can survive on its own as long as there are big prize pool, the popoularity of the game itself is the foundation. If eSports want to be like sports, it needs viewership, and viewership comes from players who play the game. This isn't inherantly true of esports, though, keep in mind. IIRC starcraft gets higher viewership than it does players, and pretty notoriously does little for their casual players. The rule applies to cod and halo for a number of reasons, but isn't the only way to approach the issue. Sure. In the real sports world there are plenty of examples of high viewership sports from audience who never played them. If the game play is easy to understand and interesting to watch, then a non-player can thoroughly enjoy just watching it. At this stage it is difficult for FPS games to reach that level though. A CoD player who has never played Halo will not be able to fully appreciate a "perfect BR kill" or a sick "no-scope snipe", and a Halo player who has never played CoD can't appreciate the intricacies in a fast TTK twitch shooting duel. Of course players care about personal performance, but it does not have to be all about K/D (IMHO it should not even be the primary concern, like boasting a 2.1 K/D over a 1.7 K/D as CoD players often do). IMHO CoD's killstreak feature is one of the main reasons of why players are so obsessed with K/D, and since it is such an important pillar of the sandbox's design, it is difficult to mesh with skill based competitive play. Ideally I want to be in a world where I only care about my ranks, and my K/D is hovering just above 1.0 (since I am playing with players who have similar gun skills). My sole focus when playing a match is how to win the game, and can gain intensive satisfaction when my team did win. Had that experience for the first time from Halo 5 beta, would love to have that from Blops 3 as well (in fact I won't buy it at launch and will keep a close eye on how ranked play pans out. If it does have a somewhat reasonable success, I will then buy the game). I hope the idea of Specialist can somewaht neutralize the K/D obsession, which if done right should encourages aggressive play towards winning the game. The concern of balancing and OP can be addressed by the "Protect/Ban" system.
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