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Post by 1up4u on Oct 2, 2016 5:59:10 GMT -5
Hi everyone. I have made an update, this August 2016, of the TTK charts, using the numbers extracted from the code by Marvel4, since the last patch. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1itMdmFtn9X04vPYohfa5px8ePVFP7mPBRYku3jeDAuA/edit?usp=sharingdocs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13swewDRB3L4Z6_u5Jc5bxWSaYrD73DB4RLtZE1ofnxw/edit?usp=sharingThis time, I used the formula : TTK = ( NHK - 1 ) * RoF TTK = Time to Kill / NHK = Number of Hits to Kill / RoF = Rate of Fire, or Delay between 2 shots (in seconds) I also calculated what I call the RTTK It is simply the TTK + SOT (sprint out time) You can see the RTTK charts here, if you're interested : docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19nk37_vKGffr20NKDCX_nxz7IG9BHPOFALIb5gatgqM/edit?usp=sharingIt is the basic RTTK, I did not calculate the SOT with gun ho, nor fast hands. As always, remember that TTK will just give you an idea of a weapon's efficiency. Recoil or Spread are important too !! Example : Dual Wield weapons still have a good TTK at long range, it does not mean they are actually good . Sniper rifles (except Drakon) are not covered (the body multipliers are making it too complicated). Most of the Sniper Rifles will kill in 1 shot, anyway (most of the time) DW = Dual Wield. Fire rate of DW weapons is a bit nerfed compared to the original single weapon. But it has to be divided by 2 because we consider, here, that both weapons are fired at the same time Marshal16 DW SF = simultaneously fired Marshals (both guns are fired at the same time) Marshal16 DW AF = alternatively fired Marshals (each gun is fired, one after the other) (less fire power, but better fire rate) NX ShadowClaw DW AF = alternatively fired shadowclaws (each gun is fired, one after the other) __________ As for the burst fire weapons : I decided to calculate 2 separate TTKs for each burst fire weapon : A TTK that includes the delay, and a TTK that does not include the delay. When you see "+ delay" = this means that we include the time between bursts (for burst weapons) in the rate of fire Notice that : when delay is not included in the RoF, for burst weapons, it is not necessary to cover the TTK if the number of hits to kill exceeds the number of rounds of the burst (because there will be a delay anyway) __________ For the weapons that are throwing projectiles (NX shadowclaw, Banshii, Rift E9), I added the speed of the projectile. __________ For shotguns : we consider that only ONE pellet hits (the worst scenario) Keep it in mind, especially for the Argus : it shows that it is a very bad weapon when fired from the hip, you need to aim down the sight For specialist weapons : we only cover the Reaper Scythe Ranges are not chosen randomly. only 18 different ranges are used now by he game (if we do not cover the long barrel) There are more ranges at the beginning because every cm counts at close range We are not covering the long barrel here, the spreadsheet is already big enough. Covering the long barrel would double its lenght docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1itMdmFtn9X04vPYohfa5px8ePVFP7mPBRYku3jeDAuA/edit?usp=sharingdocs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13swewDRB3L4Z6_u5Jc5bxWSaYrD73DB4RLtZE1ofnxw/edit?usp=sharingdocs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19nk37_vKGffr20NKDCX_nxz7IG9BHPOFALIb5gatgqM/edit?usp=sharingHave a nice day, everyone.
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pachiderm
True Bro
Chewing some serious leaves
Posts: 647
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Post by pachiderm on Oct 2, 2016 12:50:12 GMT -5
You don't even have an xbox, mouse.
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Post by 1up4u on Oct 3, 2016 10:46:40 GMT -5
i printed it out and glued it to my xbox EDIT: its not working Hi Mousey. i fixed it. I changed the settings. Now, I think that you can print it out. Have a good day.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Oct 3, 2016 19:17:54 GMT -5
Also ProjectileSpeed factored in for Banshii and Rift where?
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Post by 1up4u on Oct 7, 2016 14:31:34 GMT -5
Also ProjectileSpeed factored in for Banshii and Rift where? Excellent idea. I could add the speed of the projectile for banshii and rift, but, unfortunately, I cannot find those speeds stats. If anyone knows where I could find the speed of those projectiles, please tell me. Thank you guys.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Oct 7, 2016 15:32:05 GMT -5
Also ProjectileSpeed factored in for Banshii and Rift where? Excellent idea. I could add the speed of the projectile for banshii and rift, but, unfortunately, I cannot find those speeds stats. If anyone knows where I could find the speed of those projectiles, please tell me. Thank you guys. It's in the Raw Weapons tab on Marvel's spreadsheet. ProjectileSpeed is Column FV, Rift is Row 324 and Banshii is Row 325
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Post by 1up4u on Oct 7, 2016 16:41:03 GMT -5
Excellent idea. I could add the speed of the projectile for banshii and rift, but, unfortunately, I cannot find those speeds stats. If anyone knows where I could find the speed of those projectiles, please tell me. Thank you guys. It's in the Raw Weapons tab on Marvel's spreadsheet. ProjectileSpeed is Column FV, Rift is Row 324 and Banshii is Row 325 Excellent ! That's exactly what I need. The values are : 3500 for Rift E9 and 2250 for Banshii (and 2500 for the NX shadowclaw) But the question is... what does it mean exactly ? Is it 3500 inches per second ? If someone can confirm me that, I'll update my spreadsheet. Thank you for your help Alexcalibur.
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Post by 1up4u on Oct 8, 2016 3:27:45 GMT -5
Good. So, give me some time, I will update the lists. Thank you guys.
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Post by 1up4u on Oct 8, 2016 14:53:52 GMT -5
I have updated the sheets. Now the speed of the projectiles for shadowclaw, banshii and riftE9 are included in the TTK.
Have a nice day.
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Post by 1up4u on Oct 8, 2016 14:55:23 GMT -5
... I also added what I call the RTTK : Rushing Time to Kill
It is just the TTK + SOT (time to kill + sprint out time)
It might be interesting for rushers.
I took the basic SOT, without Gun Ho, nor Fast Hands.
Have a nice day, guys.
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Post by 1up4u on Oct 9, 2016 4:31:09 GMT -5
ADS+ttk would be more useful HOLY **** !!!!! I HATE THE CTRL+W SHORTCUT !!! (is there a way to disable that thing ?) Sorry, Mousey, I was writing to you a complete answer and pushed that d**** shortcut by accident... It closed all my message and I lost it ! .... aaaaah... Well,... ... I am too tired to write a big message again. Please forgive me. I was just trying to answer you that, for rushers, and especially rushers, SOT and ADS are both important, of course, but SOT will be useful in ALL cases. ADS is only useful when you really want to be accurate and absolutely cannot start to fire without finished aiming : that is the case with sniper rifles, low fire rate weapons, semi auto weapons. But for ALL the guns, with no exception, it is necessary to know the SOT, when you rush and run all the time. Because, even if your ADS is achieved, and even if you are already aiming, you need to know when your bullets will be actually allowed to get out of your gun. Especially on PC, with a mouse and without the aim assist, it is often interesting to fire before ADS is achieved completely. (fire or pre-fire first, and ADS right after) Many guns are really effective without ADS : shotguns and akimbo weapons, of course, but also weapons with high fire rate that you can sometimes fire from the hip : some SMGs, or some weapons with the laser sight, etc. Especially at close range (the range favored by rushers) where your bullets have more chances to hit your target, even without a perfect accuracy. At close range, it also happens sometimes that you panic and start to fire before aiming, in that case SOT will be also crucial. (yes, don't be ashamed, it could happen to anyone, even to rushers with a TDM KD ratio of 2.63, like me ) Well. thanks for your reply, Mousey. ( ... aaaaah.... Why on earth did they decide to bind "ctrl+W" to "close the window" !!!! .... It is way toooo easy to push it by accident ! (English is not my native language, and I often switch between qwerty and azerty setting.... ctrl+Z automatically becomes.... ctrl+W !!!! ...Aah) Have a good day, guys.
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Post by 1up4u on Oct 9, 2016 14:44:07 GMT -5
This COD is different than previous ones.
In this COD, ADS and SOT can be "triggered" at the same time, so that ADS can be achieved before you are actually capable to fire, and you can also start to fire before finishing completely to ADS.
ADS and SOT are completely separated, in BO3.
It is true that the TTK will be more relevant if the accuracy is high, of course (look at some akimbo weapons that still have a good ttk at long range, it is absurd and useless to know). But precisely, at close range, even without ADS, your accuracy is naturally higher, since the target is just in front of you. Even without aiming down the sight, and firing from the hip, it happens to me a lot to be capable to put all my bullets in ennemy's body, at close range.
Once again, rushers are most of the time trying to kill at closer ranges.
RTTK is made for them, not for those who are already pre-aiming before seeing ennemies.
Mousey, maybe we don't have the same definition of "rusher" ?
If so, please, consider that the RTTK will be useful only for a certain type of rushing.
English is not my native language, sorry. It is hard for me to explain.
I don't agree with you when you say that TTK is useless to know if you don't ADS.
TTK is good to know when 2 players are facing each other, shooting at the same time, with the same gun skill.
This means that, even if both of them are bad at shooting, with a very low accuracy, missing 90% of their shots, the TTK will still make the difference between them.
This will happen, for example, if both are using hip fire, shotgun, or akimbo.
If both have a good gun skill, with a good accuracy, TTK will also make the difference.
So, TTK will be good to know in all cases.
Don't say that TTK is only good to know when your accuracy is good. It is not completely true. (or... let's say, it is true, but not completely)
What we have to do is to compare similar situations. If you start to compare someone who is firing from the hip, with a bad gun skill, to someone who is a good shooter and who is already pre-aiming, of course, the TTK won't be the factor that will make the difference.
TTK is only good to know when both players have the same skill and play style, and when they shoot at the same time, so that the only difference will be the gun they are using.
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In BO3, the best combination is to use the quickdraw and the fast hand perk. Quickdraw helps you to aim down the sight faster, fast hand helps you to fire faster after sprinting.
Being able to aim down the sight very fast is useless if you cannot shoot right away, anyway. Which is the case, when you are rushing everywhere and don't have the time to stop running before facing ennemies, sometimes.
For many rushers, using both quickdraw and fast hands is the best option, but if it is not possible, it is still better to use fast hand without quickdraw than using quickdraw without fast hand. Simply because not being able to shoot right away will get you killed in most close combat situations. Shooting before aiming is also not really good, but it is still better than the contrary.
Again, this shows that, for rushers, the SOT is still a more important factor to know than ADS.
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Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that ADS time is not important. I am just saying that you need to know your SOT anyway, in ALL cases.
I could do a sheet for ADS+TTK... but I don't have too much time to do both SOT and ADS sheets. I am quite busy, and I had to make a choice.
I am sure that if I had done a ADS+TTK sheet, some players would have told me that I should have done a SOT+TTK sheet instead.
I know that I repeat myself (sorry again, my english is not allowing me to say things simply), but knowing the TTK is still very useful for rushers who are using a shotgun and don't ADS anyway. Don't say that TTK is not useful to know if you don't ADS, please.
For those who are rushing with shotgun, akimbo, or laser sight, SOT+TTK is much more interesting to know than ADS+TTK.
And even for many rushers who are aiming down the sight most of the time, SOT+TTK is also important to know, because even if you aim fast, it won't save you if bullets are not allowed to get out of your gun.
Thank you again for your post, Mousey.
Have a Good day.
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pachiderm
True Bro
Chewing some serious leaves
Posts: 647
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Post by pachiderm on Oct 9, 2016 16:22:20 GMT -5
TTK is good to know when 2 players are facing each other, shooting at the same time, with the same gun skill. This means that, even if both of them are bad at shooting, with a very low accuracy, missing 90% of their shots, the TTK will still make the difference between them. This will happen, for example, if both are using hip fire, shotgun, or akimbo. Sort of. Hip fire ttks are always going to be heavily influenced by luck. You could have a gun with a better raw TTK than your opponent but if he gets lucky and hits 100% of his shots and you hit 50% he will kill you. It's not consistent, and what's the point of statistics that aren't reliable?
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Post by 1up4u on Oct 9, 2016 18:09:47 GMT -5
let's say it in other words.
the more accurate the fire is, the more relevant the TTK will be.
At a certain point, if the accuracy is extremely bad, so many bullets are missing the target that the TTK becomes not relevant at all (see the TTK of akimbo weapons at long range)
The question is : where is that point ?
The thing is that : that point will change, depending on different factors, and ADS is not the only one. (in fact, even when aiming down the sight, you cannot guarantee that all your bullets will hit, right ?)
ADS is not the only way to get a more accurate fire.
Getting closer to the target, using a laser sight or using a shotgun (especially with the new shotgun mechanics - 1 pellet deals almost the same damage than 8) helps you to improve that accuracy.
This means that, for some rushers, for some kind of play style, the ADS time is not as important as the SOT, because you have some other ways to make your fire accurate enough to make the TTK relevant.
So now comes the time to decide if it is more useful to the majority of players to know the TTK+SOT or the TTK+ADS. Just because you are busy and you don't have time to do both, you have to make a choice. (you have a work, a family and don't want to use too much of your time for just a game)
You say that I should have done the ADS+TTK chart instead of the SOT+TTK
I say that TTK+SOT chart will help people because it covers a lot of cases : shotgun users, akimbo users, players who gets so close to you that their accuracy will be good enough anyway, even without ADS, laser sight users, SMG users who likes to fire a bit before finishing aiming, rushers who are taken by surprise while still running and need their gun to be ready as fast as possible to shoot, and more generally, any rusher who is running, sliding or jumping while aiming down the sight and just want to know when his bullets will be allowed to get out of his gun (this is happening a lot in this game, because of the exo movements).
That's it.
What shall we do ? Should I erase my list ? Or replace it for a TTK+ADS ?... Sorry, I don't have time for that, I will let someone else do it for us.
I don't really understand why this discussion is taking so long and why you started to swear and call my work "Fu***ing ttk chart".
I am extremely disapointed. I must confess that I was not expecting that.
I was trying to help the community. Did I do something wrong ?
No doubt that a ADS+TTK chart would be very interesting too. But is it a reason to call my SOT+TTK "Fu***ing chart" ?
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Trust me, SOT is crucial for rushers. I've played more than 881 hours at BO3, you can watch my videos on youtube, I have a KD ratio of 2.64, a WL ratio of 2.9, and more than 270 friends playing this game. When I talk to my friends who are also rushing in this game with VMP, Vesper, brecci, pharo, or even HVK, peacekeeper or KN44 (the most popular guns for rushers), we all agree on the fact that the SOT is extremely important.
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We all agree on the fact that the more accurate the fire is, the more relevant the TTK is.
But maybe you underestimated the fact that ADS is not the only way to improve that accuracy.
That is the reason why you thought that a ADS+TTK chart would have been more useful.
There are actually many other ways to give your bullets more chances to hit, to the point that TTK will be relevant enough.
In fact, in most of the gunfights, I use both : sometimes I start to shoot first (to make the ennemy flinch), and I ADS after to give my last bullets more accuracy. sometimes, it is the contrary, I ADS and shoot, but if ennemy is trying to double jump, to escape, I rapidly switch to hip fire, to make my field of view wider, so that it is easier to track him in the air. Paradoxically, because of the exo movements in this game, (and depending on the situation and the distance) the hip fire gives you better chances to hit your target sometimes (because of the wider field of view) So, you see, it is not as simple as you think. Again, don't think that ADS is the only way to increase your chances to hit ennemy.
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I thought that people would have been happy to see that work. It took me a whole weekend.
Again, I am quite busy. And I don't really have a lot of time to spend on this forum. This is just a game. I already used enough of my time for doing those charts, I cannot spend time explaining why I did it on the forum. This is the very first time I post my work on a forum, BTW.
If you think that this work is not useful to you, Mousey, it's ok. I just hope that some other players will find it useful.
Have a nice day.... and please, stop swearing, Mousey.
Best regards.
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QUOTE: "... but a player sprinting into a fight doesnt often have that luxury. you dont always run into players who are doing the exact same thing you are. " ... No...really ? I thought we were fighting against mirrors... Did you seriously think that I was believing that ? ... I was just trying to explain that TTK is a theorical value. And precisely, because it is theory, you cannot put other factors that will unbalance the comparison. The example I was giving (players shooting at the same time, having the same gunskill, being both bad or being both good) is just a base for the theory, and after that, you take that base, you keep it in mind, and you add other factors (accuracy (which is different, depending on the player), dodging skill, hip fire spread, reacting time, pre fire, pre aiming, etc.), those factors will make the difference between winning and loosing the gunfight. TTK is a theorical value. It does not mean anything alone. It postulates that all of your bullets will hit, which is obviously almost never the case in a real gun fight.
" What if I meet an ennemy with the same gun skill and who fires at the same time, the only difference being the gun we use ? ... Who will win ? " ...
You know, of course, that that situation will never happen in reality, but having the answer to that question is good enough to know that a gun is superior to another, and that's the thing that you want to know. I say it again : english is not my native language and it is extremely hard for me to explain. Sorry if the words I used were not clear enough.
Good day.
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Post by livingonluck on Oct 10, 2016 12:23:17 GMT -5
Here's a chart that was posted on Reddit a week or so ago. It has some of the missing information and some of the numbers are different. Might want to look into why (OP on Reddit may be wrong or you may.) imgur.com/D30miQTI also second the need for TTK+ADS/SO time; it's more accurate... especially for a rusher. Although at this point - might be worth saving the effort for IW.
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