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Post by chyros on Feb 17, 2010 3:41:17 GMT -5
I don't see why anyone uses SA on anything anyway. ARs' hip spreads are tight enough to do just as well as a SMG up close and the SMGs' are tight enough not to have to aim anyway at short range. Besides, whatever happened to ADS'ing?
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 17, 2010 9:08:45 GMT -5
ADS is slower than hipfiring. SA basically improves the range of hipfiring by a little over 50%. With an AR that's a little more useful than an SMG considering ADS carries a heavier mobility penalty, and for shotguns it improves your odds of getting enough pellets to kill at longer ranges.
Personally I'm an ADS monkey and have a hard time not ADSing, but even if you just start firing and ADS at the same time those first few shots will be hipfired and SA can improve the accuracy. Of course if you start firing before your crosshairs are on target that's not necessarily a good thing.
SA's usefulness definitely depends upon your tactics, but it does improve your hipfire, which means you could use hipfire out to longer range.
One thing I should perhaps mention is that while SA may seem somewhat redundant on a weapon with good hipfire already, it actually increases the benefit. In other words think of it this way, each weapon will have a given range where the hipfire spread will fall within a circle of a certain size. The further away the bigger the circle. Now I'm not saying at what size you'd consider it effective, for argument's sake let's say shoulder width. SA let's you cluster your shots within that same area at a greater range. What's interesting is if the hipfire spread is already tight and you have a decent hipfire range then the amount of range you gain from SA is even greater than if your weapon has lousy hipfire.
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Post by chyros on Feb 17, 2010 12:40:33 GMT -5
ADS is slower than hipfiring. Yes, that is true, but it doesn't really matter because it doesn't affect your jump speed. Considering the game was largely built around bunny hopping and dolphin diving the mobility difference is not very significant.
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Post by caboose on Feb 17, 2010 13:15:26 GMT -5
I'm sorry, you must be talking about a different game.
It's different on PC though. Much easier to drop shot there, and alot more people do it. But what this has to do with using SA, you got me.
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Post by ssog on Feb 17, 2010 14:26:50 GMT -5
I don't see why anyone uses SA on anything anyway. ARs' hip spreads are tight enough to do just as well as a SMG up close and the SMGs' are tight enough not to have to aim anyway at short range. Besides, whatever happened to ADS'ing? Yeah, I don't see why people don't just aim down the sights with their Akimbo G18s or Rafficas. I don't get why they don't ever bother sighting their shotguns. I don't understand why snipers don't just NOT hold their breath. *rolls eyes* There are plenty of reasons to use Steady Aim, starting with the three I just mentioned (Akimbo, Shotgun, Sniper). In addition, LWP whores love it because there's already a long enough delay between Sprint and Fire without adding the ADS delay to the mix. Finally, some people just don't find any of the other Perk3s to be any more compelling. If they aren't sound whores, then Ninja and SitRep aren't particularly useful. Last Stand is pretty bad unless you're running Rafficas. Commando's practically useless unless you knife people. In that case, why not go with whatever marginal benefit SA can provide? For what it's worth, I have a grand total of 2 hip-fire kills worth of progress towards Steady Aim Pro (seriously), so obviously Steady Aim is pretty much worthless for my playstyle. With that said, there's a huge difference between saying that Steady Aim is worthless for my playstyle and questioning how it could possibly be worthwhile for ANYONE'S playstyle.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 17, 2010 14:53:36 GMT -5
Yeah SA was pretty useless to me too. I only had 18 kills on it for a LONG time. I don't remember how I got those either since I got practically all of them before I started using OMA. Probably some from my UMP stuff and a couple shotgun, but then I practically never used SA again until recently.
Then I started trying to work on SA:Pro since I'd gotten all the others besides SitRep:Pro. But I found that with my regular style it just wasn't happening, even when I used SMG's I might start shooting in hipfire but I was nearly always in ADS by the time the kill shot got fired at any range. (Though the first few shots were almost certainly aided by SA.)
I didn't get SA:Pro until I decided to go ahead and drop OMA from a second class in addition to my AA class so that I can have one with an non-launcher secondary. I just moved my equipment around some. I still usually spawn in on an OMA class, lay some claymores, and then decide whether to snipe, tube, or run and gun. Anyway I didn't get SA:Pro until I was using a class with an MP5K and M1014, though the shotgun got the majority of the hipfire kills. (Generally I saved the MP5K for ADS range, though I picked it more for SMG mobility and to work it's challenges than anything.) I still haven't got the hang of hipfiring SMG's, but that's all I do with the shotgun. Whether to SA a shotgun or not is something of a tactical choice, though I generally find it easier to accept dying because I missed than dying because my enemy was far enough away to get lucky. Missing I can fix. ;p
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Post by chyros on Feb 17, 2010 17:02:00 GMT -5
I don't see why anyone uses SA on anything anyway. ARs' hip spreads are tight enough to do just as well as a SMG up close and the SMGs' are tight enough not to have to aim anyway at short range. Besides, whatever happened to ADS'ing? Yeah, I don't see why people don't just aim down the sights with their Akimbo G18s or Rafficas. I don't get why they don't ever bother sighting their shotguns. I don't understand why snipers don't just NOT hold their breath. *rolls eyes* All primaries that you can dual-wield are crap even with steady aim on if you have them with akimbo and the same goes for secondaries that are not super powerful when dual-wielding them. The glocks and rafficas could use it but have flawed designs in the first place because if you prefer wielding your secondary over your primary all the time and for good reason something is cooking. Most shotguns don't need a tighter spread at all since they will usually not kill in lesser shots with it and snipers who need steady aim to make a sniper kill can't aim for crap. I'm not even sure if it does but if it still gives you increased idle when you release if after normal breath time like it did in CoD 4 it would actually be a hindrance most of the time you're sighting in for longer periods. Finally, some people just don't find any of the other Perk3s to be any more compelling. If they aren't sound whores, then Ninja and SitRep aren't particularly useful. Last Stand is pretty bad unless you're running Rafficas. Commando's practically useless unless you knife people. In that case, why not go with whatever marginal benefit SA can provide? Regardless of whether you are a sound whore or not, Ninja WILL give you benefits whether you do anything with it or not, and Commando is used by almost everyone I encounter. I avoid it because I value headshots infinitely over knife kills but strictly speaking the range boost to the knife allows you to knife anyone inside of an SMG's effective range, meaning a pretty huge combat boost. With that said, there's a huge difference between saying that Steady Aim is worthless for my playstyle and questioning how it could possibly be worthwhile for ANYONE'S playstyle. Heh, yeah, I guess some more nuance on my part wouldn't have been unjustifiable xD .
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Post by mannon on Feb 18, 2010 14:26:11 GMT -5
...but strictly speaking the range boost to the knife allows you to knife anyone inside of an SMG's effective range, meaning a pretty huge combat boost. O,O I'm sorry, but that's just a bit of an exagerration. heh It pushes knife range from 3 to 5 meters. Most of the SMG's are still doing full max damage out to 20 and I can attest from personal experience that they are effective beyond 5 meters. Hell even Rangers are effective beyond that range. As for SA on a shotgun, it's a tradeoff. It lets you land more pellets at the far end of it's range and damage never drops to 1 point, (except for masterkey) so if you can land enough pellets they can still kill. Well okay the Striker doesn't fire enough pellets to kill at it's max range. That doesn't mean SA would be completely useless, though. It gives you more pellet hits at longer range giving you more killing power but within a tighter spread so it's not as good for up close or multiple enemies.
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Post by spifnar on Feb 18, 2010 16:01:10 GMT -5
The SPAS seems to be the shotgun that could benefit most from SA. Other shotguns have shorter range that doesn't allow for as much pellet spread, and they can rapid fire anyway.
A SPAS with SP and SA will surprise people with how far away it can consistently get a OHK
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Post by chyros on Feb 18, 2010 19:05:03 GMT -5
...but strictly speaking the range boost to the knife allows you to knife anyone inside of an SMG's effective range, meaning a pretty huge combat boost. O,O I'm sorry, but that's just a bit of an exagerration. heh It pushes knife range from 3 to 5 meters. Most of the SMG's are still doing full max damage out to 20 and I can attest from personal experience that they are effective beyond 5 meters. Hell even Rangers are effective beyond that range. Commando increases the range from 3,2 metres to 7,6 metres according to Den's figures. At that range, the hip fire becomes inaccurate enough to start becoming a liability, and that means SMGs start losing their main combat strength. And since SMGs tend to have relatively high recoil their window of opportunity is very low against Commando opponents, especially since most weapons in the game actually do more damage up close than some SMGs as well.
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Post by caboose on Feb 18, 2010 21:17:33 GMT -5
The SPAS seems to be the shotgun that could benefit most from SA. Other shotguns have shorter range that doesn't allow for as much pellet spread, and they can rapid fire anyway. A SPAS with SP and SA will surprise people with how far away it can consistently get a OHK Yep, and if you want less accuracy at closer ranges, just ADS.
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Post by ssog on Feb 18, 2010 23:53:57 GMT -5
Commando increases the range from 3,2 metres to 7,6 metres according to Den's figures. At that range, the hip fire becomes inaccurate enough to start becoming a liability, and that means SMGs start losing their main combat strength. And since SMGs tend to have relatively high recoil their window of opportunity is very low against Commando opponents, especially since most weapons in the game actually do more damage up close than some SMGs as well. According to Snakex's chart, Commando increases knife range from 3 meters to 5 meters, while the SMGs don't drop off until 15 meters (UMP), 19 meters (MP5, Vector), or 20 meters (P90, Uzi). Even if Den's figures are right and Snakex's are wrong, though... 7.6 meters is long, but a knifer would still get pwned by a shotgunner. The big advantage of the knife is that it lets you attack immediately from a dead sprint, which makes it the best CQ weapon for sprint-whores, but if you're not actually sprinting then Shotties and SMGs will pwn the knife. Edit: Forgot about Akimbo G18s. Those'll pwn Commando Knifers, too. If both parties are sprinting when the encounter occurs, then the knife will win, but if the non-knife party isn't sprinting at first contact, then any decent CQ gun will beat the knifer far more often than not.
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Post by mannon on Feb 19, 2010 1:39:03 GMT -5
And far more often than AR's due to better CQ capabilities.
I've been running with SMG's often lately and the answer to knives is simple, you backpedal and shoot. And honestly I rarely go strait hipfire. Generally I pull both triggers so only the first few shots are hipfired and then it's ADS. Recoil is really not that big an issue unless taking damage kicks out to 30 meters or so.
Knife range is long, but it's not really long enough to compete with shotguns or SMG's. A knifer needs to round a corner already within knife range to beat a shotgun and close enough to being within it to beat an SMG user. If you round the corner with lag advantage then that gives you more time to make the kill before your body rounds the corner on their end, though. Lag advantage can just as easily go to the SMG or shotgunner, though.
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Post by jathomas on Feb 19, 2010 4:21:03 GMT -5
I don't care who says it sucks or why you try to tell me that it sucks, SA is absolutely beastly for builds utilizing a fast-swap akimbo secondary and a big ol' bucket of 50.
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Post by ryusekai on Feb 20, 2010 14:36:14 GMT -5
Generally if your in a situation where you haveto hip fire, it's better to just knife them.
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Post by mannon on Feb 20, 2010 14:48:49 GMT -5
Even with commando hipfire has a longer viable range on SMG's, especially with SA, though I personally prefer to ADS rather than go purely hipfire. If I'm already in knife range I'll attempt it, otherwise I generally backup and fire, rather than gamble my knife kills them before their knife kills me. With an SMG and LW it actually works quite well. Half the time they try to rush and knife me instead of shooting and just swipe uselessly at the air.
With an AR you probably are better off going for a sprint knife kill since you have worse hipfire and if you do ADS you're practically a stationary target.
Of course, if you have a shotgun then both strategies are mute, you just pull the trigger and the knifer wannabe is dead, end of story.
I don't generally use SA, though. I prefer Ninja Pro for CQ. SA has it's uses, but as soon as I broke pro I dropped it for Ninja Pro. Hell for that matter I've been using an Uzi and Rangers, which is an odd combo, but it works better than you'd think. I do kinda miss SA on the rangers, but with akimbo it's not a problem.
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Post by hoodknife on Feb 20, 2010 18:21:48 GMT -5
I've been using a single Ranger only class with SA, Marathon and LW, and it occured to me how unreliable the Ranger is even with SA. For instance, I stood like 2m behind this sniper, plotting on how I would make my headshot the most awesome in killcam, when the shot didn't even kill the guy and I got a face full of SA Barrett. Never had this problem with any other shotgun. And the Ranger is supposed to have 75 damage per pellet right, what the hell?
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Post by caboose on Feb 20, 2010 18:36:42 GMT -5
Why use SA on the Ranger? The spread is one of its strengths.
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Post by hoodknife on Feb 21, 2010 12:32:52 GMT -5
Doesn't the Ranger just have average spread like most shotguns?
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Post by caboose on Feb 21, 2010 12:48:56 GMT -5
I think when you fire both, they fire a bit on each side.
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Post by ssog on Feb 22, 2010 3:06:58 GMT -5
Doesn't the Ranger just have average spread like most shotguns? Yes, the Ranger's spread is the same as every other shotgun's except for the AA-12 (which has a wider spread) and the 1887 (which has a tighter spread). However, since the Ranger is a 2-pellet kill out to decent range (1 pellet kill with Stopping Power), it is able to get kills at the edges of its spread far more reliably than the other shotguns. There's less need to concentrate pellets in a tighter zone (since you only need 1-2 pellets to kill, which isn't a problem inside Ranger range). Instead, you're possibly better off opting out of Steady Aim to maximize the size of your 1-shot-kill cone.
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Post by sanehedrone on Feb 22, 2010 15:33:31 GMT -5
No, hip fire has its uses, with Steady Aim too. There's no need to tell people not to use it. Generally speaking, theres no point to using it. Firing from the hip is basing your entire game off of luck, essentially, because the bullets can land anywhere within the circle. It can make your TTK very long, especially if you get unlucky. The only advantage to firing from the hip is the fact that you can keep your mobility, without the ADS speed decrease, but since most of the guns kill at near instantaneous speeds, theres really no point. Accuracy is always prized over mobility in my experience. With few exceptions (akimbo guns, shotguns) I would consider steady aim next to useless. Especially considering other tier 3 perks awesomeness.
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Post by caboose on Feb 22, 2010 19:02:04 GMT -5
I agree it's weaker than, say, in World at War. In fact, I asked the question whether they nerfed steady aim in this game after trying it out. It's not that, it's just that weapons are more accurate, and I don't know if you could move that fast in ADS with SMG's in WaW.
I understand people who don't use it, but there are some uses of it, and some of it is preference.
And finally, there isn't the same need for Ninja or Sitrep Pro on consoles as it is on PC.
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Post by ccrrt on Feb 25, 2010 17:10:30 GMT -5
I find it pretty useful with the TAR/ACR/M4 and some submachine guns. The ninja effect is not nearly a big of a deal as people make it out to be. Not a lot of people use HBS and barely anyone really uses headsets. Strafe and hipfire and you've got close quarters encounters in the bag.
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Post by azrael1911 on Mar 3, 2010 18:43:56 GMT -5
For a target of width x at distance r and an angle a, tan a = x/r for a = y ∙ 1 (Ξ p) or y ∙ 0,65 (Ξ q) (p,q≠(k½)π) so relative distance increase = r 2/r 1 = (x 2/tan q)(x 1/tan p) -1 = 1,54 is what I found. what. why are you using the opposite angle? wouldn't multiplying theta (t) of player by .65 be more logical?
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Post by prinsmp on Mar 4, 2010 4:04:32 GMT -5
Well Yesterday I decided to make a hipfire class only, to see the effects of SA. Class: P90 w/ rapid fire Marathon, SP, SA
For CQC (range of 0-15M) this setup really kicks ass. It is almost like you are shooting with a shotgun, however very easy beause bad aim is almost not possible. You just shoot a wall of bullets, and people are dropping like flies.
With this setup I ran into three enemies during a TMD in Underpass. All I can say is, they were all gone within 10 sec's.
For longrange shooting I just shot in burst, and I managed to make some good longrange kills. I am not saying this is the most successfull class I have used so far, but it is fun to use once in a while
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Post by caboose on Mar 4, 2010 7:03:28 GMT -5
I recommend Silencer on a SA SMG class. And I have the best results with Vector, although P90 is definitely my 2nd choice, due to the high ammo capacity.
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Post by prinsmp on Mar 4, 2010 8:07:20 GMT -5
Yep only reason to pick P90 over Vector is high ammo cap. I find rapid fire very helpfull when you will only use hipfire. You will not experience any accuracy penalty, from my point of view. But the Vector is the only one that doesn't benefit from rapid fire, because 1000rpm is prob the max amount of bullets the hitscan can manage. So no rapid fire required.
I agree putting a silencer on the vector is the best option, with a SA hipefire only class. I will try it out to see whether I will run out of ammo too fast when using the Vector. If not, maybe I will switch to Vector
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Post by caboose on Mar 4, 2010 9:05:19 GMT -5
Scavenger is needed unfortunately. P90 is best if you don't want it.
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