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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on Mar 28, 2010 13:55:47 GMT -5
M9 Garbage
MP-443 Good vs Many opponents
M93R Good vs single opponent
M1911 Good all around, Small clip
MP412 REX Sniper pistol
Did I miss something?
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Post by jackson on Mar 28, 2010 14:20:45 GMT -5
M9-3 is absolute garbage in every situation.
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on Mar 28, 2010 14:22:11 GMT -5
20 rounds at 900 RPMs at close range, how do you not win in a 1v1?
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Post by jackson on Mar 28, 2010 14:35:49 GMT -5
20 rounds at 900 RPMs at close range, how do you not win in a 1v1? Horrible damage per bullet results in a horrible TTK. Additionally, at anything beyond point blank, you aren't putting every shot on target because of the 3 shot burst and recoil. It's not unusual to unload and entire mag at someone and still not kill them. ROF doesn't tell the whole story. Get some first-hand knowledge of the gun before trying to write a guide like this. Just as a rough guide, without factoring specific situations... On consoles: M1911 w/ magnum > Rex (w/ or w/out magnum) > M1911 w/out magnum > MP-443 > M9 > M9-3 At close range: M1911 w/ magnum is 2 STK with a 7 round mag and good ROF Rex is 2 STK with or without magnum, but low ROF and 6 shots M1911 w/out magnum is 3 STK MP-443 has a large magazine, good ROF, but slower TTK than the 1911 or Rex M9 has smaller mag than the MP-442 and lower ROF M9-3 has far too little damage per bullet to be effective. It has one of the longest TTKs of any gun in the game
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Post by Protolisk on Mar 28, 2010 17:16:53 GMT -5
with the m93r it's easy to unload your whole magazine in a second or two, There's like no delay between bursts.
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on Mar 28, 2010 18:01:12 GMT -5
My point exactly, and besides, I always run with either accuracy or magnum ammo.
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Post by infininja on Mar 28, 2010 18:28:09 GMT -5
The M9-3r is terrible even with magnum ammo. It still takes half its clip to kill at close range, but even then you have to expend OVER half of it due to its burst nature.
By calling the REX a sniper pistol, do you mean you can snipe people with it or snipers should use it? I find the MP443 or M1911 is a better choice to finish off an opponent not in the head by your primary, depending if you're running magnum ammo or not.
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Post by anguitarhero on Mar 28, 2010 18:58:17 GMT -5
If you're running a Sniper with Magnum (which I only do when I use a bolt action with ACOG) then M9-3 is a good sidearm.
Miss the kill then a burst from the M9-3 will always kill them.
That is the only time I really use it though.
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Post by Protolisk on Mar 28, 2010 20:28:54 GMT -5
apparently it works well with the .50cal sniper cause they are left with 2 health.
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on Mar 28, 2010 21:37:08 GMT -5
To answer a question with a question.
By calling a weapon a sniper rifle, do you mean you can snipe with it or snipers should use it?
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Post by infininja on Mar 28, 2010 22:57:29 GMT -5
To answer a question with a question. By calling a weapon a sniper rifle, do you mean you can snipe with it or snipers should use it? So.. That didn't answer my question. Are you saying the 412 should be both used by snipers and used to snipe? If so, I think I disagree.
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on Mar 28, 2010 23:05:25 GMT -5
The REXs only use is in using it to hit people at long range, since it has the most accuracy of all pistols, and the M1911 crushes it at close range.
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Post by porkyownsu on Mar 28, 2010 23:41:39 GMT -5
mag ammo and consoles and hardcore make the raffica... useable..
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Post by Protolisk on Mar 29, 2010 2:27:42 GMT -5
its really between the m1911 and the mp-443. Depending on what you prefer.
M9 sucks
REX is good in some circumstances.
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Post by SheWolf on Mar 29, 2010 6:24:00 GMT -5
easyest way to select the pistol ever: pick the tracer gun. that thing causes more death and destruction then all the other pistols combined^^
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Post by infininja on Mar 29, 2010 11:12:21 GMT -5
easyest way to select the pistol ever: pick the tracer gun. that thing causes more death and destruction then all the other pistols combined^^ When my friend that rolls with RPGs plays I do, but I'll pass on say, Nelson Bay, unless I wanna be a total jackass to snipers.
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Post by ZeroKelvin^ on Mar 29, 2010 13:36:24 GMT -5
Wait, there are other pistols in the game than the 1911?
=P
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Post by cheshire on Mar 29, 2010 15:39:06 GMT -5
The M9 is "garbage" you say? I've got a couple hundred gold pins that say otherwise. I must be doing it wrong. All joking aside, I've found four uses for the sidearms in this game, and a different gun for each scenario. Tracer Dart is obvious. M9 is fantastic for the intended purpose - Running out of ammo on your primary and slapping 1 before finishing someone off. Absolutely amazing with the medic or assault class. M1911 is good for getting a single kill with confidence. I use this on my Engineer. Fire rocket, switch to PP2000, spray wildly, switch to pistol, calmly tap. 3+ kills no sweat. And finally the .357 is an awesome complement to shotgun or other close-range primary, as it is damn decent at killing people insane distances away unless they move the instant the first shot hits them. This game is well rounded, if not especially balanced, and calling any of the weapons "garbage" is as dumb as... well, as dumb as I usually am in stating my authoritarian opinions.
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on Mar 29, 2010 18:42:10 GMT -5
In this case, calling it garbage is completely appropriate, see the " M9 vs. Grach?" thread.
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Post by jackson on Mar 29, 2010 19:06:39 GMT -5
The M9 is "garbage" you say? I've got a couple hundred gold pins that say otherwise. I must be doing it wrong. All joking aside, I've found four uses for the sidearms in this game, and a different gun for each scenario. Tracer Dart is obvious. M9 is fantastic for the intended purpose - Running out of ammo on your primary and slapping 1 before finishing someone off. Absolutely amazing with the medic or assault class. M1911 is good for getting a single kill with confidence. I use this on my Engineer. Fire rocket, switch to PP2000, spray wildly, switch to pistol, calmly tap. 3+ kills no sweat. And finally the .357 is an awesome complement to shotgun or other close-range primary, as it is gosh darn golly gee whiz decent at killing people insane distances away unless they move the instant the first shot hits them. This game is well rounded, if not especially balanced, and calling any of the weapons "garbage" is as dumb as... well, as dumb as I usually am in stating my authoritarian opinions. You left out the Grach and the M9-3. As mateo said, the Grach is as good or better than the M9 in every way. Better ROF, accuracy, and magazine capacity. Tied in damage. I still stand by my assertion that the M9-3 is the worst gun in the game. Without magnum on consoles it takes 10 shots to kill at close range, 12 at range. That's a TTK of .6s and .733s. Horrid. It literally takes 1/6 of your total ammo to kill someone with the M9-3 at point blank.
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Post by cheshire on Mar 31, 2010 10:13:46 GMT -5
After reading this I angrily pulled up the chart to prove that the 443 was inferior to the M9, and was dismayed to read the same STK on the two guns, with the 443 featuring a shorter TTK and larger magazine.
So I went into the game last night with a 443 in place of the M9 wherever applicable, and racked up 51 kills with it.
After giving it a fair test, and even doing alright with the 443, I went back to the M9, which I will continue using instead. The numbers don't lie, but they can deceive, and in this case I think they do.
The M9 is more accurate when fired from the hip at close-medium range in a calm single-click fashion fired at such a rate that the crosshairs never widen beyond the width of a players unit frame at ~25m. The Grach has a shorter TTK on paper, but in reality it ended up way higher because I'm hitting almost every round with my M9, and missing a third of all my shots with the Grach. The ROF is higher, but you can't put it to use anywhere beyond "I should have just stabbed him" range, and the larger magazine was only an even trade because I had to fire more shots to get a kill.
Finally the damage is NOT the same, just the number of rounds to kill is. That's fine if you're firing rounds into a target dummy for number crunching, but in reality my pistol is usually getting used during a primary weapon reload, at which point the enemy is already damaged, and the higher single round damage on the M9 means that you can finish some people off in one shot where the grach needs two.
The only way I can actually agree that the Grach is superior to the M9 is if you exclusively fire both by clicking as fast as you can. Fired calmly and carefully, the M9 just kills people more easily.
Obviously this is highly subjective, standard disclaimer to cover my ass cuz I'm not confident enough to authoritatively make declarations against the accepted norm, blah blah blah.
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Post by jackson on Mar 31, 2010 10:41:15 GMT -5
After reading this I angrily pulled up the chart to prove that the 443 was inferior to the M9, and was dismayed to read the same STK on the two guns, with the 443 featuring a shorter TTK and larger magazine. So I went into the game last night with a 443 in place of the M9 wherever applicable, and racked up 51 kills with it. After giving it a fair test, and even doing alright with the 443, I went back to the M9, which I will continue using instead. The numbers don't lie, but they can deceive, and in this case I think they do. The M9 is more accurate when fired from the hip at close-medium range in a calm single-click fashion fired at such a rate that the crosshairs never widen beyond the width of a players unit frame at ~25m. The Grach has a shorter TTK on paper, but in reality it ended up way higher because I'm hitting almost every round with my M9, and missing a third of all my shots with the Grach. The ROF is higher, but you can't put it to use anywhere beyond "I should have just stabbed him" range, and the larger magazine was only an even trade because I had to fire more shots to get a kill. Finally the damage is NOT the same, just the number of rounds to kill is. That's fine if you're firing rounds into a target dummy for number crunching, but in reality my pistol is usually getting used during a primary weapon reload, at which point the enemy is already damaged, and the higher single round damage on the M9 means that you can finish some people off in one shot where the grach needs two. The only way I can actually agree that the Grach is superior to the M9 is if you exclusively fire both by clicking as fast as you can. Fired calmly and carefully, the M9 just kills people more easily. Obviously this is highly subjective, standard disclaimer to cover my ass cuz I'm not confident enough to authoritatively make declarations against the accepted norm, blah blah blah. Hmm... good points. You have a habit of highlighting things I forgot to mention and making my argument look like crap. LOL. I guess what you pointed out is the balance between the Grach and M9. Grach might have a higher rate of fire, but that is a double edged sword in that it also doesn't give much time between shots for the recoil/spread to come down. And the slightly higher damage, though same STK, means that finishing off a wounded player is on average going to take fewer shots with the M9 which already would take fewer shots in practice because of its better accuracy from its slower ROF. So maybe Grach is a close range spammer's weapon while the M9 is more accurate (in practice, not on paper) and is better at finishing off a wounded opponent. Both can be better than the other in their own right and in specific situations and depending on the user.
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Post by jackson on Mar 31, 2010 11:33:31 GMT -5
Actually, where did you get that the M9 does slightly more damage than the MP-443? Every chart I've checked (Den's and aphoristic's console chart) say they do the same damage.
Regardless, the point that you brought up about the slower fire rate resulting in better accuracy holds true. That alone could be the difference that makes the M9 the better choice for some players.
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Post by cheshire on Mar 31, 2010 13:20:55 GMT -5
Actually, where did you get that the M9 does slightly more damage than the MP-443? Every chart I've checked (Den's and aphoristic's console chart) say they do the same damage. Regardless, the point that you brought up about the slower fire rate resulting in better accuracy holds true. That alone could be the difference that makes the M9 the better choice for some players. Huh, you're right. I was going by the in-game bars for their respective damages, where the M9 has a higher damage value than the 443. I saw the same STK on the charts and assumed there was a damage difference that didn't add up to one less shot, but apparently the in-game bars are just displaying bad values. ....how did we come to a point where upon finding a discrepancy between testing and developer-provided data, I naturally assume the in-game data is wrong? I love this forum.
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Post by infininja on Mar 31, 2010 16:21:59 GMT -5
I understand having an attachment to the M9 and just liking it more, but wouldn't simply slowing your fire rate with the MP-443 result in the same recoil, while still having the option of faster 'spamming?'
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Post by cheshire on Apr 1, 2010 8:40:05 GMT -5
I understand having an attachment to the M9 and just liking it more, but wouldn't simply slowing your fire rate with the MP-443 result in the same recoil, while still having the option of faster 'spamming?' Not quite. That's exactly what I tried to do during my 51 kill test of the 443, and it didn't work. I had to space the time between shots on the 443 more than I did on the M9 in order to achieve the same spread, or spam shots way faster and count on missing a large percentage of them. Firing it at the timing I was used to caused the third shot to be a 50/50 at a mere 15 or so metres where under those conditions the M9 crosshairs were still more narrow than a character frame. EDIT: There's certainly no sentimental attachment. The 443 looks way cooler than the M9. Hell, all the pistols do. Except the Tracer Dart, which looks like a kids toy gun from the dollar store.
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Post by jprussell on Apr 4, 2010 20:09:36 GMT -5
^There is no difference between the Grach's and the M9's deviation decrease rate; the Grach does not have to be fired any slower to remain at optimal accuracy than the M9. If you're experiencing less accuracy with the Grach, most likely it's just that you're not as good with its sights. Looking through the files of the two guns, there are almost no differences that aren't already shown in Den's chart. The only one I spot that is somewhat meaningful is the Grach also has a shorter transition time for going from the hip to sighted, and vice versa. The M9 has literally no statistical advantage over the Grach whatsoever. The Grach is a straight upgrade to it in all non-subjective ways.
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Den
He's That Guy
Posts: 4,294,967,295
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Post by Den on Apr 4, 2010 20:52:56 GMT -5
Heck, the M9 would be the perfect candidate for being silenced.
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Post by infininja on Apr 5, 2010 9:44:35 GMT -5
It sounds to me like cheshire doesn't aim down the sights up close, so that's not even a factor in what he's saying. I personally aim down the sights unless I'm RIGHT on top of the guy or have already damaged him. I only have enough kills to get the bronze star with the M9, so I can't say much for its in-field use. A silencer could be interesting. An update, maybe?
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Post by dragoneye on Apr 19, 2010 14:39:53 GMT -5
Regardless of Kit (though I'm usually recon), I always, always, always use the MP443. I swear by it, and I'm working towards my platinum. I used to use the M1911, but I started practicing with the Garache MP443 to practice for an upcoming tourney at GR, in which the M1911 is banned, and man.
If you're good with headshotting, the Garache is beastly for taking down single or multiple people. The large clip, relative accuracy and fast refire rate make it terrific, because it throws off the aim of your target.
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