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Post by w4gasm on Apr 16, 2010 17:07:30 GMT -5
Now I know that Den said “When not firing the weapon, weapons universally recover 3.0 degrees of spread per second” but after some thought I wondered how universal the “when not firing” part is… let me explain.
Lets say that an automatic weapon fires at 300rpm giving it an firetime of .2 seconds. You fire off a burst with this gun and after you stop firing the spread begins to recover… but this is where I am uncertain how the game operates.
How does the game know whether or not you are done firing? You could very well pull the trigger .2 seconds later and keep firing. So why wouldn’t the gun briefly recover during that .2 seconds? That would be a .6 degree reduction on a 300rpm gun.
I think this would help explain why the Devs seemingly hit the T88 with the “crappy stat stick”… it has low damage, low ROF, high spray and moderate recoil… nothing looks appealing on paper.
The SAW has the same bullet damage but fires 150rpm more and has significantly better spray and recoil numbers… but the extra 150rpm could foreseeably balance out these values if the guns do recover some between shots.
Am i wrong? i would like to know.
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Den
He's That Guy
Posts: 4,294,967,295
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Post by Den on Apr 16, 2010 18:21:25 GMT -5
"Universally" as in "all the time" and "every gun in any stance".
The AEK-971 going from 1.5 to 5.0 would take only 10 shots if the weapon did not recover while firing. But that isn't the case. It takes the entire magazine to barely just not reach the full 5.0 spread from 1.5.
2.175 seconds to empty the thirty round magazine. 10.5 spread added over that period of time. 6.525 spread recovered in that time. Were the player perfectly stationary, standing, the AEK-971's spread would reach 5 on the 29th shot.
--- Now two comparisons: The Uzi and PP2000. By all accounts, the PP2000 appears to be the best with less spray and a higher rate of fire. By simply scaling down the time between shots (0.0666) and the spread added (0.33) of the Uzi, it would match the 0.06 and 0.3 of the PP2000. Because of the tiniest decrease in speed allowing for more recovery, they technically have the same accuracy after each shot.
- The T88 0.33 and 0.0923 And SAW 0.275 and 0.075
The scale here is skewed ever so slightly. .275 goes into .33 1.2 times. .075 goes into .0923 1.23 times.
Equalizing the two values: SAW will have 0.338 spread added to the T88's 0.33. Such a tiny difference, they're basically equal...
If you stop there, that's it. BUT there's one more part. These comparisons must be made while also considering the passage of time.
The two may look equal, but the SAW will output the same amount of bullets in a lesser amount of time and with greater accuracy than the T88. At point blank range, the SAW will beat the T88 by a significant fraction of a second. With the one bullet disadvantage at long range, the SAW can dish out ten rounds (one more than lethal) in the time it takes the T88 to fire its minimum lethal amount of eight rounds.
The differences between the two are so minimal that it doesn't really matter, but there's no mistaking that the SAW still has the statistical superiority regardless.
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Post by w4gasm on Apr 16, 2010 20:01:13 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification Den! Admittedly I was hoping that there might have been some hidden value in the T88 that could not be seen just by looking at the stats.
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Post by jprussell on Apr 19, 2010 21:29:29 GMT -5
Interesting. This is contrary to BF2 and 2142, then, where deviation decrease only began after the RoF delay (i.e., the time between shots at peak RoF).
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Post by individual on Apr 20, 2010 5:54:32 GMT -5
Thx Den. That clarification helped a lot.
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Post by massteron on Apr 20, 2010 12:30:44 GMT -5
How did you come up with 29 rounds to reach a spread of 5? Because i get 26.4 rounds:
10.5 - 6.525 = 3.975 (total spread) 3.975 / 30 = .1325 (spread per round) (5 - 1.5) / .1325 = 26.4 (rounds to reach max spread from a 1.5 spread)
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Post by spbtool on Apr 20, 2010 15:40:49 GMT -5
Thanks for this explanation Den. I have been trying to get a handle on how spread works in the game has I have become a huge fan of the M249 lately. If I am understanding this correctly, the math for the final degree of recoil at the next shot should be: Add Spread - (RoF/3) = X Name - spread at next shot M249 = 0.255 T88 = 0.299233333 PKM = 0.299233333 M60 = 0.353633333 Uz = 0.3078 PPP2K = 0.28 M416 = 0.371433333 XM8 = 0.343333333 Then we could also look at the total recoil at the point of rounds needed to Hit to Kill (HtK): X * (HtK -1) = Y Name - Total recoil @ HTK Far M249 = 1.53 T88 = 1.7954 PKM = 1.496166667 M60 = 1.0609 Uzi = 2.1546 PPP2K = 1.96 M416 = 1.857166667 XM8 = 1.716666667 Interesting how the M60 has more deviation per shot but way less at the HtK. Is there a deviation number some where that determines how much each shot will spread left or right? Or is that hidden in the spread some how? 2.175 seconds to empty the thirty round magazine. 10.5 spread added over that period of time. 6.525 spread recovered in that time. Are you sure the Spread numbers are right. it looks like you are multiplying the time by the spread but the timing on the spread is reset with each shot. (0.075/3) * 29 = 0.725, .35 * 29 = 10.15. 10.15 - .725 = 9.425 degree of recoil at last round of clip.
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Post by sushiwarrior on May 2, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Massteron, the time to empty the mag is not the time it takes to fire 30 bullets but 29 because the first shot is instant, so your second line should be /29 instead of 30. this gives a spread per round of.125. 3.5/0.125 makes 28, not sure why 29, think the 29th round is the first round that will have a 5 spread. Spbtool. i think the formalue for the spread per shot should be: addspread - (3 * firetime) for example AEK-971 would be 0.35 - 3*0.0750 = 0.125
But i dont understand the changes they made in the R7 patch. They increased the added spread per shot and they increased the spread recovery for lmg's. overall its seems a slight nerf when autofiring (using above formula). Is this supposed to buff burst firing over autofiring or something?
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