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Post by airmaxbri on Dec 30, 2010 23:04:56 GMT -5
With and without Hardened.
Thanks in advance,
can't seem to find it on the Den's Chart
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Dec 30, 2010 23:19:58 GMT -5
denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2377&page=1#34881That post contains a chart and a brief explanation of how it worked as well as exact values for things in CoD4. Read the next few posts to figure out how "thickness" factors into the equation. Basically, for pistols/SMGs, Hardened (Deep Impact) increases the variety of materials that can be penetrated by increasing small penetration to medium penetration. It also increases the damage retained and allows for penetration of thicker materials. Because of this, one effect is that it also increases the angle at which a surface can be penetrated (because steeper angles would equate to a "thicker" surface to penetrate).
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Dec 31, 2010 0:51:00 GMT -5
Not everything in those posts is 100% true. This is the new chart thingy. I'm fairly sure that a wall is 8 units thick however I cannot confirm that yet. Don't forget that RifleBullet (penetrating people) is a separate property and is not included in this in any way, shape, or form.
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niteshadex
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Post by niteshadex on Jan 2, 2011 19:36:23 GMT -5
^What do railings count as?
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Post by Ishbane on Jan 2, 2011 19:59:04 GMT -5
^What do railings count as? Unsurpassable vortexes of nothingness.
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phale
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Post by phale on Jan 2, 2011 20:10:13 GMT -5
What's the difference between medium and large penetration again?
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Jan 2, 2011 21:48:30 GMT -5
^What do railings count as? Railings are most likely painted metal. What's the difference between medium and large penetration again? All the materials against Large are the exact same as Medium.
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Post by didjeridu on Jan 3, 2011 13:15:32 GMT -5
So I have to ask a stupid question. Den's perk chart lists Hardened as increasing the penetration angle. So this means that Hardened only reduces the damage penalty when firing through materials? So if I were to use a Spectre with Hardened, I would never achieve the Medium penetration like the Kiparis?
I like the idea of having an SMG being able to penetrate players, but the time it takes to unlock the Kiparis combined with the 20 round magazine really turns me off.
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Jan 3, 2011 13:28:22 GMT -5
To clarify, the "rifle bullet" attribute is what allows a gun to shoot through a player. The Kiparis not only has medium penetration, it also has the "rifle bullet" attribute which allows it to shoot through players. Hardened also does NOT change the "level" of penetration that a gun has - ex. small, medium, large.
In the thread I linked to, there are some equations that explain how Deep Impact/FMJ/Hardened works. The bottom line is that some calculations are done to figure out how much damage would be reduced to after shooting through an object. Having Hardened throws an extra * 2 into the equation, which would effectively increase the penetration capacity to have damage retained doubled, or to increase the thickness of the object it can penetrate.
Since penetration angle can also be considered "thicker object," the perk description Den has is accurate.
The catch is that an SMG with small penetration can only penetrate set types of materials, as shown in the above chart. Added Hardened to those weapons will not change the modifiers for the materials, i.e. turn small penetration into medium penetration. Rather, it increases their ability to penetrate those materials already in their section of the chart, i.e. those materials in the "small" section of the chart. And as an added bonus for Small penetration weapons, adding Hardened also unlocks the left half of the Small chart, i.e. metal, plaster, wood, brick, etc.
I kinda ran in circles for a bit, but I hope I got the message across.
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Post by Contrary on Jan 3, 2011 14:57:26 GMT -5
I've heard it a million times but I still can't believe ARs penetrate as well as LMGs.
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Post by didjeridu on Jan 3, 2011 16:48:07 GMT -5
Yeah, that was fine. So I guess I'm really just stuck with the Kiparis if I want an SMG that can hose a crowded hallway. I think I'd be better off with a Lightweight, Dual Mag FAMAS/AUG.
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Jan 3, 2011 17:19:07 GMT -5
I've heard it a million times but I still can't believe ARs penetrate as well as LMGs. Believe it. Yeah, that was fine. So I guess I'm really just stuck with the Kiparis if I want an SMG that can hose a crowded hallway. I think I'd be better off with a Lightweight, Dual Mag FAMAS/AUG. Pretty much.
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Post by Ishbane on Jan 3, 2011 20:57:22 GMT -5
I've heard it a million times but I still can't believe ARs penetrate as well as LMGs. Believe it. Well, according to that chart there is a difference.
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Post by duckcall00 on Jan 3, 2011 21:06:12 GMT -5
Yeah, that was fine. So I guess I'm really just stuck with the Kiparis if I want an SMG that can hose a crowded hallway. I think I'd be better off with a Lightweight, Dual Mag FAMAS/AUG. The ability to penetrate bodies is not such a big deal in my opinion. I have more than twice as many kills with the Kiparis as I do with the MP5k. Yet when I slap Rapid Fire on my MP5 I seem to get a whole lot of triple kills. More than I do with a Kiparis.
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Jan 3, 2011 23:43:45 GMT -5
Well, according to that chart there is a difference. And that's one of the original charts I linked to in the thread that I linked to earlier in this thread. Den said he made some charts before when be barely knew how anything worked. denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=general&thread=2377&post=34879So I'm pretty sure that chart is, simply put, wrong. We have the truth that no other site does. We have the Brotius Maximus. That, and the chart earlier in this thread also contains the exact penetration values as extracted from the files - something the green chart with percentages fails to use. Not to mention the "wtf" that occurs when you look closely at the chart - a "high" penetration weapon takes a 20% damage reduction from a "small" size wall, and when you slap on Deep Impact it STILL takes a 20% damage reduction.... bullshit.
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Post by didjeridu on Jan 4, 2011 0:28:21 GMT -5
The ability to penetrate bodies is not such a big deal in my opinion.I have more than twice as many kills with the Kiparis as I do with the MP5k. Yet when I slap Rapid Fire on my MP5 I seem to get a whole lot of triple kills. More than I do with a Kiparis. It is for me, and is one of the main reasons why I dislike SMGs. I often find myself in the enemy spawn, or at least where the enemy spawn funnels. I can take down 1 or 2 no problem, but there's always that extra guy behind them who unknowingly had a human shield. That, and the fact that the 20 round SMGs are pretty much useless with their nonexistent ammo supply. I actually like the Skorpion and Kiparis, but I find myself playing more cautiously with them because of their bad multi-target capabilities. Cautious play means longer lives, which means running out of ammo. Using Scavenger on an SMG just feels wrong. Rapid Fire MP5 is my favorite though. As long as I have SoH, it's just tasty.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Jan 4, 2011 0:45:39 GMT -5
Well, according to that chart there is a difference. Download the gsc rips. denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2003&page=1Go to: \gsc_rip_1.0_cod_black_ops\raw\infoOpen: bullet_penetration_mp in Word or pretty much any other document openy thing. It'll come out just like the raw weapon file stats. Compare it to my chart. It should be the same with 3 exceptions. IDK, maybe angle is taken into account in addition to thickness somehow. It really doesn't matter.
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Post by Ishbane on Jan 4, 2011 17:59:57 GMT -5
There has to be a significant benefit for using those lmgs.
And seeing that Hardened improves penetration at lower angles, i'd guess that high penetration provides an inherent bonus there.
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Post by 1337skill on Feb 19, 2011 17:38:00 GMT -5
Am I the only one who really never got the big deal over hardened/fmj/ deep impact? I get it can help at times but really when are you going to use it that much?
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Feb 19, 2011 21:13:13 GMT -5
Whenever you are shooting through walls, with hardened/deep impact/FMJ, you are doing twice as much damage as a person without it. And, you have the ability to penetrate at a shallower angle.
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phale
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Post by phale on Feb 19, 2011 22:31:36 GMT -5
Bullet penetration and cover is a lot more useful than you might think. You don't need to explicitly look for places where you can penetrate. Every now and then a piece of cover will get between you and your target in a firefight, and that extra damage can make the difference between getting a kill or not. Good players WILL use cover effectively. However, I am personally not a fan of FMJ, mostly because of the distracting sparks that would shoot out when I hit something with FMJ. Those sparks are very annoying, almost like a second muzzle flash, and can sometimes obscure the area around the target. The perk versions in CoD4 and BO aren't as bad, and Hardened Pro is awesome.
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Post by swoopwithnon4m3 on Feb 20, 2011 2:34:32 GMT -5
Hardened lets you still do effective damage to people who duck behind cover OR allows you to do effective damage while YOU'RE ducked behind cover. Not to mention Hardened Pro wrecks people.
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aequinox
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Post by aequinox on Feb 28, 2011 9:42:30 GMT -5
"To calculate penetration damage, simply multiply damage by penetration value by material thickness."
... so thicker materials means more damage? Wut now?
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Feb 28, 2011 11:01:19 GMT -5
No... The thicker an object is, the smaller its multiplier. There is some base thickness that makes the multiplier 1, but I have no idea what it is.
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Post by psijaka on Mar 1, 2011 3:01:58 GMT -5
This chart deserves a bit more attention.
Am downloading the .zip file as I am curious....
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keeko
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Post by keeko on Mar 1, 2011 8:40:22 GMT -5
Just posting the file on here.... for the people who dont download it. on a side note though. i guess the only major advantage to the pig is more ammo to poke through the walls. BULLET_PEN_TABLE\small_bark\20\small_brick\6\small_carpet\20\small_cloth\72\small_concrete\6\small_dirt\0\small_flesh\24\small_foliage\72\small_glass\72\small_grass\0\small_gravel\32\small_ice\72\small_metal\12\small_mud\0\small_paper\72\small_plaster\12\small_rock\6\small_sand\0\small_snow\72\small_water\0\small_wood\12\small_asphalt\6\small_ceramic\72\small_plastic\32\small_rubber\72\small_cushion\72\small_fruit\72\small_paintedmetal\0\ medium_bark\28\medium_brick\20\medium_carpet\20\medium_cloth\72\medium_concrete\12\medium_dirt\0\medium_flesh\34\medium_foliage\72\medium_glass\72\medium_grass\0\medium_gravel\32\medium_ice\72\medium_metal\20\medium_mud\0\medium_paper\72\medium_plaster\20\medium_rock\12\medium_sand\0\medium_snow\72\medium_water\0\medium_wood\16\medium_asphalt\12\medium_ceramic\72\medium_plastic\32\medium_rubber\72\medium_cushion\72\medium_fruit\72\medium_paintedmetal\0\ large_bark\28\large_brick\20\large_carpet\20\large_cloth\72\large_concrete\12\large_dirt\0\large_flesh\40\large_foliage\72\large_glass\72\large_grass\0\large_gravel\32\large_ice\72\large_metal\20\large_mud\0\large_paper\72\large_plaster\20\large_rock\12\large_sand\0\large_snow\72\large_water\0\large_wood\16\large_asphalt\12\large_ceramic\72\large_plastic\32\large_rubber\72\large_cushion\72\large_fruit\72\large_paintedmetal\0
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