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Post by klokateer on May 10, 2011 10:19:04 GMT -5
(all info below is researched and tested but ultimately my opinion)
boy howdy do I get annoyed at seeing so many people who use Improved Explosives (aka Explosives Mark II, Improved Demolitions, etc.)
here's why...
I play Assault and Engineer more than other classes. Engineer is my second most used, behind Assault, but it is by far my favorite.
There is nothing more satisfying to me that denying the enemy their vehicle support. It wins games, period.
My favorite AT weapons are the AT mines and the AT4 launcher. As a dedicated engineer, I have become extremely adept at anti-vehicle action.
I have never used Improved Explosives to do it.
I personally feel as though my role as an engineer is to be anti-vehicle AND anti-infantry. This is because the infantry to vehicle ratio is clearly stacked toward infantry on most maps. I use Magnum ammo or Body armor depending on the primary weapon I am using to give my anti-infantry role more impact.
Improved Explosives feels like a waste, especially once I am out of rockets. In not situation is Improved Explosives necessary when using AT mines.
Anyway, here are the facts, WITHOUT Improved Explosives: against tanks 1 perfectly placed AT mine will kill ANY vehicle (tanks included), V.armor or no. 2 well placed AT mines will kill ANY tank when single mine placement is not possible. 1 AT4 rocket in to the back/side of a tank followed by a Repair Tool will finish any tank if you're good enough at flanking to pull this off. 2 AT4 rockets to the back of a tank will kill it unless they are using V.armor. 3 rockets of any caliber to the side/rear will finish any tank if you're in a bad situation or just not very good at flanking.
against choppers 1 rocket of any caliber will take ANY chopper out of the sky.
If someone is using V.armor you may not get kills against an Apache or Havoc because they'll have time to bail. Against a Blackhawk or Hind you will not get a kill unless you're using Improved Explosives BUT the bird WILL fall. After all, you're job is to take down the chopper, not pad your KDR.
summary Tracer dart + RPG/Gustav is the lazy engineer's method. Tracer dart + Improved Explosives + RPG/Gustav is the deadbeat engineer's method.
learn to flank and DON'T BE AFRAID to get your hands dirty with the Repair Tool. You will be HATED by the enemy and their would be tank drivers.
In most Rush maps, the enemy Attackers CANNOT advance without their armor support. In most Conquest maps, the enemy CANNOT take flags without their armor support, ABUSE THIS FACT but do it efficiently.
When you play engineer the right way, you get Ace Pins and praise from your teammates.
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Post by raxcoswell on May 10, 2011 11:13:05 GMT -5
I was actually thinking about this very thing last night (which was my first night back on the wagon in too long)
I run magnum on everything, always, except engineer with rockets. So that got me thinking 'why'?
I think we reach similar conclusions but for pretty different reasons. Anyway I guess I'll just punch in my thoughts in no real order:
I think we're pretty similar players overall - assault and engineer are by far my most two played classes too, and I've written a couple of posts here before about how good the repair tool is anti-vehicle. Differences, up until now at least, equipment-wise: I take mines w/magnum just like you. But I don't use mines all the time on rush defence, and very rarely on rush attack. And I play more rush than conquest. And when it's rockets, I use the rpg. Maybe just a holdover from when the AT4 was more ass, maybe because I like how it looks (and how great I look to my team when reloading!) or I'm used to the dip/flight, or whatever. That's how it is.
Anyway this leads me to my first and main point:
Rockets are kind of turd.
And this from a guy who spends more than half of his time as his favourite class using them. So, of course, they're not completely bobbin. But, in my opinion/experience, agaiinst armour they are pretty lame.
You write about flanking and hitting from the rear and yeah we've all done that and it's how I do it too. But man, those tanks we're killing like that, they're terrible. Personally, it's pretty uncommon for a tank with me in to get hit in the side except at mad oblique angles, and I genuinely can't remember getting shot in the rear. I get killed by rockets sometimes of course, but mostly in a bradley and mostly when half of their team is intent on taking us down, in which case we're going to go down (unless they're terrible) and it's just as likely to be c4 or a mortar or whatever. They just don't do enough damage in a short enough amount of time to kill a decent tank solo.
Still, I take them all the time anyway. But that's because I like to use them to blow holes in walls, destroy turrets, fire them at defensive positions and people, whatever. They're a radical tool. But that's making me think I should ditch the Imp. Exp. for magnum, and maybe ditch the RPG for a CG. Like you said, or at least alluded too, improved explosions doesn't add enough use to enough of your actions to really justify it. And mines, that wonderful anti-vehicle tool, don't even care if they're improved or not.
Old habits die hard though, I guess. But I'll give it a run over the next few days. How's the AT4 anyway? I just never really got in to it. I do my rocketing pretty close range vs vehicles (seems the best way to make sure you're getting the job done) and I've always disliked the whole extra time you have to stand there eating it as you teach the rocket how to hit a tank. Plus it's slow as balls at reloading. What gives it the edge over the rpg damagewise?
Anyway yeah good post/thread
Xx
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Post by klokateer on May 10, 2011 11:49:58 GMT -5
vs. tanks, I'll be honest, I'm an AT mine slut. I have routes for all maps burned into my brain that let me get excellent mine placements. If I can't get a position because the other team's tank driver is better than most, I'll lay a mine screen inside my base then swap to Assault with C4 and play anti-personal until the tank driver decides he has the green light to push into my base. When that happens, I make him my bitch, no matter how excellent a driver he is he will hit my mines or get C4'd.
bad tank drivers... god love'm, they're easy to farm for kills and points.
as far as using rockets for other misc. purposes, I just don't do it. I'm such a flanker I value every bit, scrap, and chunk of cover I can use. I never use the Extra Explosive leg pouch because, being a flanker addict, I run LW to help me.. flank. When I use my explosives, I make them count or die trying.
about the benefits of using the AT4, all I can say is that it is different for each person. I only use AT4 in the following 2 scenarios - I am attacking on a map that has tanks on defense and attacker sides I am on a map against a team with a great chopper team.
If I am attacking and the other team is defending with tanks, I will square off against another tank, get 1 shell hit, hop out, hit him with the AT4, then get back in my tank and shell him again.
If I am against a great chopper team and no one else is bringing him down, I'll do my best to use the AT4 to do so. Because, no good chopper team is going to let me tracer lock them.
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Post by natsuterran on May 10, 2011 23:53:45 GMT -5
Are those facts accurate? I was pretty sure that the CG became as good against tanks as the RPG if you used mk2 on it. I find mk2 to be kind of useful against particular tank drivers. In most straight-up deathmatches with enemy tanks, it won't come into play. But oftentimes I will trace an enemy tank and it will drive off somewhere to withstand the onslaught of missiles. There was one time, for instance, where we traced a tank on Oasis defense first base. It was out in the desert and we had at least 4 engineers constantly firing rockets after the tracer. But they had 2-3 engineers constantly repairing it from behind. In situations like this I prefer the mk2 in order to cancel out a little more of their repairing. There's a tipping point in damage between them always having repair juice to keep it full health and your extra damage rockets being just strong enough to keep their tool burned out.
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Post by klokateer on May 12, 2011 8:13:21 GMT -5
The CG deals 280 damage. With Improved Explosives it becomes 350 damage.
The RPG is 360 damage WITHOUT Impr. Explosives.
Why not just use the RPG?
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Post by grimnebulin on May 12, 2011 22:59:08 GMT -5
@ klokateer Good post and completely agree with the non-necessity of EXPLMK2... However, just like magnum ammo, people use it cause it makes it all easier / less "work" -- just from the simple fact (like mag.) of -1 STK and a more effective splash (i.e., Uncle Carl).
I'm a LW + BODY AR abuser ... <3 ... for what it's worth.
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Post by raxcoswell on May 13, 2011 3:57:31 GMT -5
Played a little last night, using a bit of AT4 and such (also got a drill double kill when a couple of tank fools jumped out, too lovely)
And I got use out of Imp. Exp I have to say. Although, only for one little period. It's just measuring the added value, like has been alluded to. Normally that swings it to magnum. However, end of Atacama rush when it's 3 on 3 tank fighting due to the open plazas in that territory, advancing on foot is suicide, and you can always jump into a tank MG seat for anti-boys purposes. But for the sheer speed of dropping tanks, especially in tandem w/muchly varying damage from other tanks, stationery ATs and such like, Imp. Exp. does a job.
But yeah that's a pretty specialised moment and there aren't a whole lot of situations like that where the entire battle is so heavily vehicle-focused.
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Post by rubionubio on May 13, 2011 13:20:34 GMT -5
On vehicle heavy levels I like to run the AT4 with Ex. MKII lol. But I'm usually paired up with another engineer who's got a CG for infantry and wall-busting purposes, and he'll follow up my shot with one of his and finish the tank most of the time. It would probably be a different story if I didn't have a bro with a CG close at hand for the follow-up shot, because an AT4 with improved explosives is just overkill lol.
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on May 24, 2011 19:18:44 GMT -5
I'm here to say that I've flown a helicopter with V. Armor, gotten traced, hit by a CG, and survived.
Anyway, I don't use Explosives MKII every-time on the Engineer for no reason.
1. It helps me kill tanks faster. Yes, complain if you would like, but it is true. Tanks don't sit around waiting to die, they have an engineer come behind them and repair. They hide behind walls after being hit, getting repaired by another Engi while you run around and take them both out with an AT-4.
2. It kills infantry better. As has been said, the vehicle to infantry ratio favors infantry by far, so why use explosives? Against an assault or medic in a straight up firefight, you will die. What does the Engineer have that nobody else does? That's right, a huge rocket launcher. More boom means more triple kills.
3. Gustav + Explosives = Good vs Infantry and Vehicles.
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Also, as a tank jockey, I despise mines, and never use them. Curse all of you who do.
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Post by klokateer on May 25, 2011 9:29:06 GMT -5
I'm here to say that I've flown a helicopter with V. Armor, gotten traced, hit by a CG, and survived. Anyway, I don't use Explosives MKII every-time on the Engineer for no reason. 1. It helps me kill tanks faster. Yes, complain if you would like, but it is true. Tanks don't sit around waiting to die, they have an engineer come behind them and repair. They hide behind walls after being hit, getting repaired by another Engi while you run around and take them both out with an AT-4. 2. It kills infantry better. As has been said, the vehicle to infantry ratio favors infantry by far, so why use explosives? Against an assault or medic in a straight up firefight, you will die. What does the Engineer have that nobody else does? That's right, a huge rocket launcher. More boom means more triple kills. 3. Gustav + Explosives = Good vs Infantry and Vehicles. ------------ Also, as a tank jockey, I despise mines, and never use them. Curse all of you who do. Hit with chopper while using V.armor... Survived as in stayed in the air and continued flying? or Survived as in did not die and had the chance to parachute to the ground? #1 is true but I feel it's irrelevant. If you're the only one trying to down an enemy tank, MKII exp is going to help marginally at best. #2. is not true. Medic and Assault weapons "win" a firefight on paper. In the game, the better player wins the firefight no matter what guns are being used. Better playing includes flanking and headshots and using cover. Lastly, you only get 4-8 rockets when you're a rocket spammer. You get far more bullets. It is simply more efficient to give the damage boost to what you have more of when playing at anti-infantry. #3. is only true subjectively. objectively the other launchers are better vs. vehicles than the Gustav WITHOUT MKII expl. when you combine that fact with your orther role... you know... stopping infantry, you give yourself far more flexibility when choosing Magnum or Body armor
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Post by 418Y on May 25, 2011 11:06:25 GMT -5
#3. is only true subjectively. objectively the other launchers are better vs. vehicles than the Gustav WITHOUT MKII expl. when you combine that fact with your orther role... you know... stopping infantry, you give yourself far more flexibility when choosing Magnum or Body armor Sadly, nothing stops infantry better than an MKII CG. And the MKII CG is basically a fast RPG against Vehicle, it has just a bit less damage that doesn't really count that much (am I wrong? I didn't do the math).
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Post by klokateer on May 25, 2011 11:35:26 GMT -5
I agree with that, but there are few maps where it's optimal to use your rockets on infantry only. (Cold War is all that comes to mind)
If you're shooting your rockets at infantry on any map with APCs or MBTs, you're a liability to your team instead of an asset, especially if you're running MKII expl. Once you're out of rockets, you have a weak primary weapon to use against the rest of the infantry your 4 rockets didn't take out.
Once a tank comes rolling down the road you're even more useless for not having anything to threaten him with.
Going back to the maps with no vehicles, even if you are a Gustav spammer, again, you have far more bullets than rockets. It would still be more efficient to run Magnum even if you're carrying a Gustav.
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Post by raxcoswell on May 26, 2011 5:51:48 GMT -5
418Y: CG is about one rocket more against tanks compared to RPG I think, altho I am shakey on the vehicle damage stuff myself. But in my experience, it's the difference between being able to kill a decent tank or having it get away, or the difference between killing a dumb tank in a decent timeframe, or it takes ages and using all yr rockets up. If there's no tanks around there's no reason to take the rpg really. White Pass as was said, attacking Nelson Bay on rush. Tend to use the CG on rush defence Valparaiso too, since dropping the choppers and making explosions to hurt people and destroy cover seems more important. Enemy Bradley never does anything good on that level, except rarely second base, and it's always v exposed.
But yeah, whenever I I shoot a tank with a CG, invariably makes me pinch the bridge of my nose and sigh deeply.
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on May 26, 2011 18:06:12 GMT -5
Hit with chopper while using V.armor... Survived as in stayed in the air and continued flying? or Survived as in did not die and had the chance to parachute to the ground? Continued flying while getting repaired by 2 engies. #1 is true but I feel it's irrelevant. If you're the only one trying to down an enemy tank, MKII exp is going to help marginally at best. You'd be surprised, sometimes being the only one trying to kill the tank gives you enough to load the AT-4 a second time. #2. is not true. Medic and Assault weapons "win" a firefight on paper. In the game, the better player wins the firefight no matter what guns are being used. Better playing includes flanking and headshots and using cover. That's the problem, Engineer's aren't flanking and using cover, they're jumping behind a tank to repair it, or jumping behind a tank to rocket it. Lastly, you only get 4-8 rockets when you're a rocket spammer. You get far more bullets. It is simply more efficient to give the damage boost to what you have more of when playing at anti-infantry. Let's test this. 120 bullets for the SCAR-L Assuming close range, 5 bullets to kill. 24 kills with perfect accuracy. 8 CG rounds 8 kills minimum assuming all hit. It looks like the SCAR wins, but how much easier is it to kill with a CG than a SCAR? How many shots do you miss with each of them? #3. is only true subjectively. objectively the other launchers are better vs. vehicles than the Gustav WITHOUT MKII expl. when you combine that fact with your orther role... you know... stopping infantry, you give yourself far more flexibility when choosing Magnum or Body armor As has been noted, instagib vs jeeps, + better speed than either of the other rockets, + easier killing of infantry. CG is all-around, AT-4 is for when I know I will be driving a tank and want to have a better weapon to kill other tanks with. RPG just sucks.
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Post by raxcoswell on Jun 2, 2011 10:06:46 GMT -5
I'd rather shoot a tank with an RPG than an AT4. + not sure I'd even bother firing a CG at it. 90% of the time I'm in a tank (which is 90% of the time my team has a tank), I'm the gunner, and all I do all day is shoot fools who think they can play their little AT4 computer game infront of me.
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Post by klokateer on Jun 2, 2011 10:37:54 GMT -5
Hit with chopper while using V.armor... Survived as in stayed in the air and continued flying? or Survived as in did not die and had the chance to parachute to the ground? Continued flying while getting repaired by 2 engies. thanks for that info, saves me some testing time You'd be surprised, sometimes being the only one trying to kill the tank gives you enough to load the AT-4 a second time. it still comes across as irrelevant to me. If you're using the RPG or AT4, it only takes 2 shots to kill a tank when you do it right. If you're forced into a situation where you cannot hit the tank in the side or rear, it's going to take 3 rockets with or without MKII Explosives. That's the problem, Engineer's aren't flanking and using cover, they're jumping behind a tank to repair it, or jumping behind a tank to rocket it. I was specifically talking about the engineers who do not have a tank at their disposal. In the context of the quoted text I was talking about the power of Magnum in the hands of an Engineer. Assault and Medics will not always win a firefight. The SMGs in this game have some of the fastest TTK. Using Magnum gives you the anti-infantry power you need with your gun. Holding on to your AT gadget shots for incoming armor is your duty as an Engineer. Let's test this. 120 bullets for the SCAR-L Assuming close range, 5 bullets to kill. 24 kills with perfect accuracy. 8 CG rounds 8 kills minimum assuming all hit. It looks like the SCAR wins, but how much easier is it to kill with a CG than a SCAR? How many shots do you miss with each of them? no matter how you dissect it, the fact remains that in this team based game, each kit has multiple roles to play. The Engineer's primary role is to anticipate enemy armor with a secondary goal of stopping infantry while waiting for the armor to come. If you don't use Magnum you're essentially pigeon holing the kit into being only useful with explosives. When you have far less rockets than bullets, it stands to reason that you should put some stopping power into them when the default AT gadgets are already strong enough when used correctly. As has been noted, instagib vs jeeps, + better speed than either of the other rockets, + easier killing of infantry. CG is all-around, AT-4 is for when I know I will be driving a tank and want to have a better weapon to kill other tanks with. RPG just sucks. I agree with most of that. I am usually referring specifically to Engineers vs. enemy armor. BUT on maps that have no enemy armor, I feel like MKII Explosives is even more of a waste considering the bullets:explosives ratio you're carrying.
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TheLegendaryJ
True Bro
If your reading this you don't need glasses...
Posts: 154
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Post by TheLegendaryJ on Jun 2, 2011 13:02:24 GMT -5
I'm surprised how much we're talking about the Engineer only when we're not talking about the other classes.
Assault: Inferior abilities to taking out tanks, even with double grenades and Improved Explosives. But an Assault can't be useless against cover and vehicles, it's just more centered around taking out infantry (assuming you can aim.) Although no one suspects a double grenade spam everywhere (then again, why do it?)
But they can be a total annoyance to Tanks, shooting a Weed 'nade right in it's face makes him harder to hit your team, and you CAN kill a Tank with regular 40MM if you have some help. Also, you can try to flank the tank when it's distracted to kill the repairmen.
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Engineer: Wins the fight against tanks if you're good enough, decent against infantry as well. There are three types of these suckers;
The Gunners are the ones with guns like SCAR and UMP-45 and 9A-91. They want the best TTK possible, they usually run with Extra Mag and Magnum and take an AT4 or RPG to make them more balanced.
Anti-Mobility are the ones taking CG's and maybe tracers to take out infantry and helicopters. Even more so are the ones who take Extra Explosives and find a lunchbox to keep spamming. They normally have guns like PP2000 and Uzi so they can't notice the Magnum difference when they take Bomb MKII.
Anti-Vehicles are the ones taking RPG's and AT4's with Improved Kabooms and shooting every tank they see. Not much to these guys taking both Explosion Perks. They use guns that are "All-Kit" weapons to make them better matched at infantry, like the M14 or G3. They also like tanks more than everyone.
Of course, this is my generalization of Engineers and is not wholly true for everyone, don't take it seriously.
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Medic; All they can do is shoot a tank with a tracer, not even worth it.
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Recon; All they get is C4 and they have to run like a mad cow the opposite direction or their enemies doom. But did you know Improved Explosives work with the Mortar? Since Magnum is useless in long range sniping on Vanilla, run this for your second Perk instead. And since pressing the Spot button works as well as the Spot Scope, why waste a Perk?
But maybe your trying to flank and attack, and want to take your C4, in that case, Improved Explosions would work for you if trying to kill the M-COM or use one less charge on a tank. Even better on Vanilla when you have Motion Censors.
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Post by klokateer on Jun 2, 2011 13:56:26 GMT -5
regarding other kits, heh.
C4 kills a tank in 1-2 C4 bricks, no matter MKII Explosives or not. AT mines are the same.
Mortars do 200 damage per rocket and drop 8 rockets. 7 rockets need to make a hit on a tank to kill it from full health. With MKII Expl. each rocket does 250 damage and reduce the number of rockets to kill a tank to 5.
That's a pretty legitimate boost. However, most tank drivers do not sit under a rocket fall until they die. So it is still a waste in my opinion.
At 200 damage per rocket they have a casualty radius of 3 meters in Normal mode and at 4 meters in H-core mode. With MKII Expl. the casualty radius increases to 4 meters in Normal and stays at 4 for H-core.
I can see the merit in using it in Normal mode but H-core mode does not benefit from MKII Expl. with Mortars.
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Post by raxcoswell on Jun 2, 2011 20:48:58 GMT -5
as a tank whore, gotta say mortars are a bit underrated. in terms of what they do to you and force you to do, they're about as good as rockets. however you get around one mortar a week so no one's ever going to solo you with one
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Post by field on Jun 2, 2011 21:26:05 GMT -5
I find c4 extremely useful for destroying vehicles, you can huck c4 a long ways by timing your jump properly. You dont even have to stick them on the tank, they just both have to be within maybe 6ft of it and it will be destroyed for sure.
I'll use c4 alot also for just getting rid of bushes and trees if it serves an advantage.
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Post by raxcoswell on Jun 3, 2011 5:39:51 GMT -5
Yeah I didn't want to make out like I thought C4 was turd or anything. Just it's more of a measured, tactical device imo more suited to recon. I know we all say to always flank, but if everyone is flanking then no one is, and who's gonna push up the middle if not assaults? I mean obv you can flank with an assault and plant c4 all everywhere and everything, but the GL works nicer with the ammo box and in general with what the assault is most geared towards.
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TheLegendaryJ
True Bro
If your reading this you don't need glasses...
Posts: 154
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Post by TheLegendaryJ on Jun 3, 2011 13:22:21 GMT -5
Yeah I didn't want to make out like I thought C4 was turd or anything. Just it's more of a measured, tactical device imo more suited to recon. I know we all say to always flank, but if everyone is flanking then no one is, and who's gonna push up the middle if not assaults? I mean obv you can flank with an assault and plant c4 all everywhere and everything, but the GL works nicer with the ammo box and in general with what the assault is most geared towards. Some people can't stand how AR's play (me included since I only like 3 weapons in this game and hate the rest.) And also, C4 get's into your belt faster than grenades. But nothing kills buildings more efficiently than the 40MM. And yes, people, flank, all, the, freaking, time.
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Post by raxcoswell on Jun 4, 2011 13:02:14 GMT -5
C4s get in to your belt faster, but you can sit on your ammo box and shoot 40MM
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Post by undoubledzim on Jun 5, 2011 11:56:14 GMT -5
oddly enough I have hit apaches with a at4 and only got vehicle damages = (
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TheLegendaryJ
True Bro
If your reading this you don't need glasses...
Posts: 154
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Post by TheLegendaryJ on Jun 6, 2011 12:39:08 GMT -5
oddly enough I have hit apaches with a at4 and only got vehicle damages = ( That is a recipe for RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!! Yeah, it gets frustrating when your shots don't do what they're supposed to do, which equals MOAR RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!! To help deduce RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!! Get some buddies and have a Smoke Grenade war, for less RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!
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Post by saddaminsane on Jun 6, 2011 16:08:17 GMT -5
i hope im not the only one who kamikaze C4 tanks with my wheeled vehicles here plant all 3 c4 onto my headlights and watch engineers RAAAAAGGEEEE!!!!!!!!!
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Post by klokateer on Jun 6, 2011 16:28:46 GMT -5
i hope im not the only one who kamikaze C4 tanks with my wheeled vehicles here plant all 3 c4 onto my headlights and watch engineers RAAAAAGGEEEE!!!!!!!!! guilty
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Post by kirbyderby on Jun 9, 2011 3:41:59 GMT -5
i hope im not the only one who kamikaze C4 tanks with my wheeled vehicles here plant all 3 c4 onto my headlights and watch engineers RAAAAAGGEEEE!!!!!!!!! guilty I have the right to remain silent, as anything I say can and will be used against me in a court of Brah.
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TheLegendaryJ
True Bro
If your reading this you don't need glasses...
Posts: 154
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Post by TheLegendaryJ on Jun 9, 2011 12:25:07 GMT -5
i hope im not the only one who kamikaze C4 tanks with my wheeled vehicles here plant all 3 c4 onto my headlights and watch engineers RAAAAAGGEEEE!!!!!!!!! I can never seem to find anyway to do that anymore in Battlefield games, wich gives me RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!!!!!!!! I need to be more stylish.
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Post by rubionubio on Jun 9, 2011 13:55:14 GMT -5
Easiest map to do it on IMO is Harvest Day conquest. There's a ton of tanks, a ton of vehicles, and by the end of the match the map is usually such a cluster that it's pretty easy to get flanking on tanks.
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