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Post by slobbergoat on May 25, 2011 17:39:52 GMT -5
While I've managed to avoid using them up to now by mostly using just the Garand and Shotguns (and for recons, VSS) for all my classes, I tried using Assault class weapons seriously rather than casually yesterday and didn't seem to have much success with them.
For whatever reason it simply seems like firing at the 'proper' rate kills enemies too slowly - I will make sure every shot's timed perfectly, but even at long distances some random radish who just dumps their entire magazine at me will kill me before I do them.
This isn't a problem when I use high power / high recoil weapons like the Garand because aforementioned vegetable is dealt with before they fire all seven thousand bullets at me; however, it's much harder to deal with when my own gun seems to have the offensive capability of a wet sock when used "properly".
Should I be aiming to fire five to ten round bursts instead of one, two or three round ones?
Incidentally at times I see blood puffs off enemies I shoot (and they are definitely enemies, as I will proceed to put more bullets into them that do give hitmarkers), but don't get hitmarkers - have I actually hit the enemy or does this game also have Black Ops grade hit detection at times?
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Post by FRC Carnage on May 25, 2011 19:40:33 GMT -5
I usually go for 7 to 10 round burst. Old machine gunner trick of saying "Die motherfucker" in your head to time the burst usually works well.
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Post by kirbyderby on May 25, 2011 21:47:07 GMT -5
Personally, I tapfire really fast 2-4 round bursts... not sure how effective it actually is, but it works well with the AEK when I use it.
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Post by 418Y on May 25, 2011 22:39:11 GMT -5
I do like kirbyderby. But I saw many videos on YouTube where skilled players spray like madmen and kill people in a way that wouldn't get me even an hitmarker. If I shoot more than 5 bullets in a row I never ever hit anything, how come some people do? I'm not talking about CQC, I'm talking about medium to long range firefights!
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Post by kirbyderby on May 25, 2011 23:25:49 GMT -5
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Post by raxcoswell on May 26, 2011 5:37:00 GMT -5
I don't really worry about ideal rates of fire or whatnot. You get, or at least I got, a general intuitive sense for it.
It seems like you burst more than me though. That tap tap tap stuff I only really do with SMGs. I'd only do it with an AR at extreme range. But yeah, up close, don't burst at all. Then as the range increases, lower the bullets in your burst. Don't feel the need to count bullets or seconds in your head, you have more important things to think about. But yeah, a lot of the guns can handle 5-6 round bursts, don't be afraid to use these at medium ranges.
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Post by klokateer on May 26, 2011 8:21:47 GMT -5
full auto hipfire in CQC ADS 2-3 bursts at medium range, some weapons can hipfire this range as well (F2k, AUG) ADS 3-4 bursts at long range.
always aim for the shoulder-neck area, recoil will walk your gun up to their face for the killing headshot.
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Post by Danthemanpr on May 26, 2011 21:37:53 GMT -5
There is an art to this. It all depends on ranges, and on your ability to judge ranges.
Importantly: Learn how fast you can tap the trigger while keeping the bullets tightly clustered. You can get a feel for that by aiming directly up in the sky and watching the tracers. All weapons have a fairly fast ideal ROF for single shots. This is most important for the G3 and LMGs, and for ARs at very long ranges.
That said, at most ranges burst fire is more effective. The size of the burst depends on the range: 2 shot bursts at longish ranges, 3-4 at medium, 10 shot burst at very close ranges (10 meters or so). During in-your-face encounters, just open up from the hip. I am assuming you're using the AEK, XM8 or M416 here; with the F2k and Aug, you want to be somewhat more liberal with your trigger finger, and with the G3 you want to tap-fire at almost all ranges (reserve full auto for CQB only).
I generally think it is a bad idea to go for headshots unless a) you are fairly close to your target or b) your target is stationary. ARs kill very fast if you land your body shots; do you really need to kill your target a twentieth of a second faster?
Make sure to be cognizant of the effect of recoil, and try to control your gun's updward walk. This applies to tap-fire.
Think about whether you should be moving or not. Moving is very detrimental to accuracy, but increases your survivability. Crouching does not have a significant effect on accuracy (the G3 is the only exception to this rule).
Don't let this thread dictate your style - ARs are very flexible guns, and there isn't an "ideal" way to use them.
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Post by kirbyderby on May 28, 2011 9:55:21 GMT -5
I still often forget about the effects of moving while shooting since I play CoD more often, and, after strafing everywhere with an LMG and promptly dying, I wonder why for a good few seconds... ... ... *cue facepalm*
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Post by rubionubio on May 28, 2011 11:41:31 GMT -5
Personally, I tapfire really fast 2-4 round bursts... not sure how effective it actually is, but it works well with the AEK when I use it. This. The AEK is extremely lethal when fired in bursts of 2-3 rounds, giving yourself just enough time to re-center the irons on your enemies upper chest. And like Rax said, you'll just kinda get a feel for them after a while. The people who go on extended bursts of 10+ are just lucky. Literally there is no way at all to control where those bullets go, so I guess you're just hoping that they go where the enemy is? The spray factor from bullets 5 - 10 would be such that the bullets are going to go basically anywhere in the center 20% of your screen. Obviously slightly different for each gun, but for the high-damage ARs like the AEK you've got to be very tap-tap-tappy like you would with the VSS almost.
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Post by slobbergoat on May 30, 2011 7:16:48 GMT -5
Welp, I was getting used to the ARs decently well - unlocked the Abakan which was a major help too - but then I unlocked the M14 and proceeded to singlehandedly achieve not-failure for my vegetable teammates myriads of times over.
Is there any real reason for me to go back to the regular ARs if I currently do better at all ranges with the M14? Is smoke/203 enough of a benefit to justify not using it?
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phale
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Post by phale on May 30, 2011 10:39:20 GMT -5
Well, the burst fire weapons seem to suit your playstyle. I think you should try the AN-94 for a while, and if you don't like it, go back to the M14 until you unlock the M16.
Like rubionubio said, the AEK is extremely lethal when fired in bursts of 2-3 rounds. The M16 automatically does that for you.
But if you can't get the hang of it, the M14 is a good weapon - although perhaps you should try using it with other classes more (the Assault's GL is pretty instrumental to the class).
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TheLegendaryJ
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Post by TheLegendaryJ on May 30, 2011 12:54:22 GMT -5
Personally, I tapfire really fast 2-4 round bursts... not sure how effective it actually is, but it works well with the AEK when I use it. This. The AEK is extremely lethal when fired in bursts of 2-3 rounds, giving yourself just enough time to re-center the irons on your enemies upper chest. And like Rax said, you'll just kinda get a feel for them after a while. The people who go on extended bursts of 10+ are just lucky. Literally there is no way at all to control where those bullets go, so I guess you're just hoping that they go where the enemy is? The spray factor from bullets 5 - 10 would be such that the bullets are going to go basically anywhere in the center 20% of your screen. Obviously slightly different for each gun, but for the high-damage ARs like the AEK you've got to be very tap-tap-tappy like you would with the VSS almost. Why is the AEK so good? Every time I played with that gun I always got my ass kicked. If there is a more accurate version of that gun, I'm going to use that instead of AEK. FYI I hate all the guns in this game, it's the same as liking them, instead I use the ones I least hate instead of using the ones I like most.
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Post by slobbergoat on May 30, 2011 20:41:58 GMT -5
Well, the burst fire weapons seem to suit your playstyle. I think you should try the AN-94 for a while, and if you don't like it, go back to the M14 until you unlock the M16. Like rubionubio said, the AEK is extremely lethal when fired in bursts of 2-3 rounds. The M16 automatically does that for you. But if you can't get the hang of it, the M14 is a good weapon - although perhaps you should try using it with other classes more (the Assault's GL is pretty instrumental to the class). Do you think it could be supplemented well by playing Engineer? You then have a more destructive grenade launcher with more ammo and directional firing and the bonus of being able to repair vehicles, at the expense of needing to shoot an assault a dozen times or so till they realize they're meant to give ammo to people asking for ammo every now and then.
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Post by klokateer on May 31, 2011 9:12:23 GMT -5
when you're good with the M14, it's an amazing weapon in the hands of a medic or engineer. being able to engage at mid-long range as well as the M14 allows, plus have anti-vehicle gadgets, plus repair friendly vehicles, etc. is very handy. I got the majority of my M14 plat with medic and engineer. just be sure your pistol skills are up to par for CQC situations.
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on May 31, 2011 20:51:23 GMT -5
The G3 is completely superior to the M14, and all the other rifles when you don't need a GL.
It has double the clip of the M14, but only takes one more bullet to kill. And if you can keep it in the sweet spot of 300 RPM (5 rounds per second) you fire with 100% accuracy. Plus it's only 4 hits to kill.
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Post by slobbergoat on May 31, 2011 23:48:08 GMT -5
when you're good with the M14, it's an amazing weapon in the hands of a medic or engineer. being able to engage at mid-long range as well as the M14 allows, plus have anti-vehicle gadgets, plus repair friendly vehicles, etc. is very handy. I got the majority of my M14 plat with medic and engineer. just be sure your pistol skills are up to par for CQC situations. I found I didn't need the pistol actually - a quick dab in the face from the M14 is enough to instant or near-instantly kill people at close range. Simply the insane damage output from the weapon seems to even it out against AR noobspray in close combat situations. And every now and then a CQC fight finishes instantly when you headbap the enemy during hipfire. The G3 is completely superior to the M14, and all the other rifles when you don't need a GL. It has double the clip of the M14, but only takes one more bullet to kill. And if you can keep it in the sweet spot of 300 RPM (5 rounds per second) you fire with 100% accuracy. Plus it's only 4 hits to kill. If the G3 is the same as the VSS in most handling characteristics I could see this, but I'll need to unlock it first. Does it have the retarded-level spread of the VSS when firing at high speeds though or does it regain accuracy faster? I find that in a midrange 'panic' situation, the M14 is more likely to help me out given the way it's almost perfectly accurate at that distance for every successive shot.
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Post by slobbergoat on Jun 1, 2011 4:26:39 GMT -5
Meh, tried it out and it has the same issue the VSS has - when I'm at long ranges I easily outshoot everyone since random idiotic noob spray isn't viable, but anytime I'm in medium range (basically at any range where I might actually be persuing the objective rather than uselessly trying to not get sprayed to death) firing at a regular rate ensures that I kill the enemy roughly after being revived five times.
I dunno if it's the case but hipfire in this game feels ridiculously accurate - both when I'm using guns and when the enemy is too. I've gotten deliberately-aimed headshots at ridiculous ranges (IE, outside of the range where a shotgun is an effective weapon) with the M14 from the hip. And that's not even a gun that's meant to be accurate from the hip like an SMG.
Basically while I can kill a lot of enemies without being killed myself and help out with objectives just fine, combat feels completely unnatural - given the game has iron sights you figure using them at most distances should be more of a requirement, but the accuracy for hipfire feels no lower than it was in BF1942.
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on Jun 1, 2011 17:36:02 GMT -5
If the G3 is the same as the VSS in most handling characteristics I could see this, but I'll need to unlock it first. Does it have the retarded-level spread of the VSS when firing at high speeds though or does it regain accuracy faster? I find that in a midrange 'panic' situation, the M14 is more likely to help me out given the way it's almost perfectly accurate at that distance for every successive shot. G3 regains spread at 5 per second instead of the usual 3. But more than that, it can fire faster than the M14 (40 RPM), and still have 100% accuracy! M14 max ROF is only 260 RPM.
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Post by raxcoswell on Jun 2, 2011 9:27:29 GMT -5
Hello again, everyone. Mr thread creator, I also found the burst ARs to be the first ones I had any real feel for, but now I barely use them. The burst-firing discipline is different to other games I'm used to, so I guess the restricted burst guns led me in to it. As for being good with the M14 and not bothering with other ARs. If you want, I guess. But personally I love the shit out of the 203. Auxiliarry assault rifle for my grenade launcher etc. That alone means I hardly ever use the M14. But maybe you're a beast with C4 or whatever. Sure it's nice, and it means you don't have to cheese it when a tank comes calling, but I guess I'm just not that big a fan of it, so I'm all 203, all the time. Like the man said, it's pretty instrumental to how assault plays. Going through doors is for babies, and using C4 destroys that whole speed+surprise things which are your calling cards. If there are no walls to blow up, smoke. C4 is even less of a contender there
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on Jun 2, 2011 17:32:38 GMT -5
Personally, I like C4 much better than C4, you can kill tanks with it as you said, but you can also set up traps, and demolish buildings with a trigger pull.
I'm a little Russian when it comes to tanks myself. If it can't kill a tank, it doesn't get used. One of the reasons the BMP (An Infantry Fighting Vehicle) has a 70mm gun instead of a 30mm autocannon.
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Post by raxcoswell on Jun 2, 2011 20:42:38 GMT -5
gotta say despite watching a video on how to drop buildings effortlessly, I am terrible at it and it takes me so much C4
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TheLegendaryJ
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Post by TheLegendaryJ on Jun 6, 2011 12:50:22 GMT -5
gotta say despite watching a video on how to drop buildings effortlessly, I am terrible at it and it takes me so much C4 Doesn't make a difference when that building has the objective in it, or your an Assault. G3+MMN=Badass. G3+Magnum=CQC. G3+Ceramics=What are you doing? G3 has terrible accuracy without MMN, but if you do have it your guaranteed to hit anything you shoot. Magnum's for guys who don't trust the G3.
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Post by phale on Jun 6, 2011 14:22:20 GMT -5
This seems counterintuitive. Magnum does not improve the G3's close range performance very much. 25*1.25 = 31.25, still a 4 shot kill. However, it does improve long range performance, bullets to kill reduced by one. At any rate, I do like using the G3 with Marksman.
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Post by klokateer on Jun 6, 2011 16:30:35 GMT -5
G3+Magnum in H-core is wonderful.
Just FYI, in case you decide to play H-core :S
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Post by grimnebulin on Jun 6, 2011 21:57:30 GMT -5
This seems counterintuitive. Magnum does not improve the G3's close range performance very much. 25*1.25 = 31.25, still a 4 shot kill. However, it does improve long range performance, bullets to kill reduced by one. At any rate, I do like using the G3 with Marksman. I run the G3 with magnum ammo for one reason ... 2 STK to the head. Countlessly, I've lined up a shot on a prairie doggin' head (within my FOV) or even at a floating triangle off in the distance and *plunk, plunk* POINTS / HEADSHOT +10! I also am in lurv with the Grach, so magnum facilitates that fetish as well.
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Post by slobbergoat on Jun 8, 2011 20:59:56 GMT -5
Since I'm trying to get the all weapon bronzes badge I tried out each of the ARs in turn. Seems like a good idea in retrospect.
ARs for whatever reason feel pretty random to me still, however, but I found some suprising difference I hadn't counted on.
Namely, I found the F2000 to be probably the best long range AR because it seemingly has next to no dispersion when fired in ten-round bursts. I found the M16 was able to go on "full auto" by hammering the fire button and yet still reliably hit targets whereas the AEK would not. I also found that the HK416 seemingly had an effective fire rate of 30 rounds per minute because the spread was literally astronomical and I got thousands of kill assists due to its apparently paper bullets. And despite claims to the contrary, it seems like the Abakan has a gigantic vertical dispersion when I use it - at midrange if I aim for the knees I will get a headshot with the second bullet.
I get the feeling somehow my weapons have nothing in common with the ones my opponents are using because literally nobody uses the weapons I'm good with and does well with them in any game I've seen. It's almost all exclusively Abakan and M16 users.
If the weapon is extremely weak and fires fast (Uzi, PP2000, MG3, F2000) or extremely strong and fires slow (M14, G3 functionally) I do great with them - but the more balanced weapons feel like garbage to me.
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TheLegendaryJ
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Post by TheLegendaryJ on Jun 9, 2011 12:19:40 GMT -5
Since I'm trying to get the all weapon bronzes badge I tried out each of the ARs in turn. Seems like a good idea in retrospect. ARs for whatever reason feel pretty random to me still, however, but I found some suprising difference I hadn't counted on. Namely, I found the F2000 to be probably the best long range AR because it seemingly has next to no dispersion when fired in ten-round bursts. I found the M16 was able to go on "full auto" by hammering the fire button and yet still reliably hit targets whereas the AEK would not. I also found that the HK416 seemingly had an effective fire rate of 30 rounds per minute because the spread was literally astronomical and I got thousands of kill assists due to its apparently paper bullets. And despite claims to the contrary, it seems like the Abakan has a gigantic vertical dispersion when I use it - at midrange if I aim for the knees I will get a headshot with the second bullet. I get the feeling somehow my weapons have nothing in common with the ones my opponents are using because literally nobody uses the weapons I'm good with and does well with them in any game I've seen. It's almost all exclusively Abakan and M16 users. If the weapon is extremely weak and fires fast (Uzi, PP2000, MG3, F2000) or extremely strong and fires slow (M14, G3 functionally) I do great with them - but the more balanced weapons feel like garbage to me. Even though this game is about versatility, you have a point. Balanced guns do jack shit against guns that are used for more specific areas. Example; AEK<Shotgun/Close Range AEK<F2000/Mid Range AEK<SVU/Long Range AEK=AUG/Any Range Of course, I could be deadly wrong. Then again, I am a hater of all guns, except the ones you pointed out mentioned being the weak/fast and slow/strong guns that I also mainly use. And the SAW, *angel's chorus*
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Post by rubionubio on Jun 9, 2011 13:53:27 GMT -5
Haha it's funny that you listed the AEK, because that was the one gun that I was going to hold up as an example of a gun that actually works as an "all-rounder". I just always do well with it regardless of the environment. It's definitely not going to win a shooting match in CQB versus a shotty (assuming the enemy can actually HIT you with that first shot, otherwise he's toast) or out snipe a sniper rifle, but I just feel that the flexibility is a strength, when applied correctly. All the "specifics" - guns that excel in their sweet-spot but are extremely disadvantaged outside of it - require you to play ONLY in a way that fits your gun, leaving you heavily disadvantaged should you try to relocate to a new building, get assaulted, etc. The one area where I think the "generalist" AR's are at a significant disadvantage is in CQB, which I personally alleviate with the use of the 40mike-mike shotgun, if the map warrants; I.e. a large amount of CQB is expected. Otherwise the 40MM GL is just too good to pass up... Creating new doors, collapsing cover, you name it. It's sexy times.
One other gun that I would consider to be a "generalist" that works exceedingly well for me is the... Drumroll... VSS. I know many of you are probably thinking I'm crazy, but once you really master this gun it's just unstoppable at any range. Amazing shotgun, silent sniper, quick reload (if cancelled), you name it. I'll take it in just about any situation when playing a recon class (and not needing C4) and will almost always come out on top... Especially when taking motion mines into account (obviously not part of the discussion here, but they really compliment the kit well, turning it into a house-clearing monster).
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TheLegendaryJ
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Post by TheLegendaryJ on Jun 9, 2011 16:01:30 GMT -5
Haha it's funny that you listed the AEK, because that was the one gun that I was going to hold up as an example of a gun that actually works as an "all-rounder". I just always do well with it regardless of the environment. It's definitely not going to win a shooting match in CQB versus a shotty (assuming the enemy can actually HIT you with that first shot, otherwise he's toast) or out snipe a sniper rifle, but I just feel that the flexibility is a strength, when applied correctly. All the "specifics" - guns that excel in their sweet-spot but are extremely disadvantaged outside of it - require you to play ONLY in a way that fits your gun, leaving you heavily disadvantaged should you try to relocate to a new building, get assaulted, etc. The one area where I think the "generalist" AR's are at a significant disadvantage is in CQB, which I personally alleviate with the use of the 40mike-mike shotgun, if the map warrants; I.e. a large amount of CQB is expected. Otherwise the 40MM GL is just too good to pass up... Creating new doors, collapsing cover, you name it. It's sexy times. One other gun that I would consider to be a "generalist" that works exceedingly well for me is the... Drumroll... VSS. I know many of you are probably thinking I'm crazy, but once you really master this gun it's just unstoppable at any range. Amazing shotgun, silent sniper, quick reload (if cancelled), you name it. I'll take it in just about any situation when playing a recon class (and not needing C4) and will almost always come out on top... Especially when taking motion mines into account (obviously not part of the discussion here, but they really compliment the kit well, turning it into a house-clearing monster). I have to agree, VSS is rather amazing, though I would rather go G3 if I need to play another class (with reasons very weak since I'm having a hard time transitioning from Brink.) However, if we're talking about H-Core, VSS is still great, but you lose one of the most important tools in your armory, the Motion Sensor. Even though the gun is more lethal on a quick to die server, You may end up getting ambushed as much your ambushing others. Some may even argue that the G3 with MMN is better for H-Core because of the ease of being able to kill someone via the use of "spray mowing." But let's not get into another VSS vs. G3 discussion since we already have another thread for that.
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