Disecting BF3: Weapon Stats, Mechanics

[gaius]

Hey all -- long time lurker, first time poster. Figured I'd give my impressions; feel free to tell me to shut up.

Regarding the heavy barrel, I have a question:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression (in BC2, at any rate) that the first shot when you aim down the sights goes pretty much where you want it to; after that, recoil and spread kick in. Spread gives you a slightly random trajectory, and recoil moves your sights around, making you fight to keep the (now slightly spread) crosshairs on the target.

Presuming it works the same way in BF3, how does a heavy barrel benefit you if you ADS (which I do ALL THE TIME?)

******

Regarding my beta impressions:

I've been playing mostly Assault and Support (I like giving ammo to people and i like assault rifles ). In my experience, aside from the damage bugs, it takes anywhere from 2 (headshots) to 6 body shots to kill someone at 50 meters with both assault rifles and LMGs.

The assault rifle configuration I've found works best for my playstyle is:
* Suppressor
* Bipod
* 4x or 3.4x scope

Basically, I use this build to crawl into position and take folks out before they know what hit them; the suppressor and the 4x scope allow me to compete with snipers at most ranges (in my experience, all but the best snipers get tunnel vision, and the suppressor makes it especially hard for them to find you in time), and in case of emergency, you can switch to full auto and let 'em have it.

So far, I've experimented with the M16, the M416, the AKM, and the AEK. I can't tell if the AEK and the M416 are just all-faction clones of the AKM and M16 (respectively), since they seem to have similar stats.

I've noticed that bullet drop is actually noticeable on assault rifles with or without the suppressor -- aiming at someone 100 meters away, I actually had to position the aiming reticule approximately a headlength ABOVE the target. That was a pretty thrilling moment for me! I never had to do that as Assault in BC2.

I've found that the bipod works very well as long as you don't ask too much of it. By this I mean that once you know what surfaces it will attach to, it's pretty easy to pick out bipod setup positions that will yield optimum results. The trick, I've found, is to slot up in a spot that gives you maximum coverage, as well as head placement that doesn't make you stick out like a sore thumb. Hiding your head and weapon among debris is useful.

In fact, the principal advantage I've noticed with the bipod is that you can set up and attack from positions people don't expect -- over walls and such that a person would normally have to stand up to fire over. In other words, it allows you to keep a low profile and still attack. The fact that it cuts recoil to almost nothing is just icing on the cake.

*****

My impression of the LMGs are as follows:

They feel like assault rifles with a wider base spread and larger magazines. This means that they have fewer conditions under which they can fire for effect, since you have to crouch or go prone for reliable accuracy (meaning you have to choose your positions BETTER than you do with ARs, and you have to move more purposefully), but they cut enemies down just as effectively. They're devilishly effective on the DEFENSIVE, when you're often forced to deal with large mobs of enemy at any given time -- not needing to reload is wonderful. And with the bipod, they're essentially a highly mobile turret gun. Fun times!

(I've noticed that LMGs seem to receive more spread reduction benefit from bipods than assault rifles do when not aimed down sights -- can anyone confirm?)

I've also noticed that LMGs tend to have less bullet drop than ARs; can anyone confirm?

One particularly devilish trick I've found: if you're on the defending team and the enemy makes it past the first pair of M-Com stations, run into the corridor on the far right -- the service corridor that drops into the subway tunnels proper. If you have C4, plant charges near the entrance; then run like the dickens down to the end of the corridor and lie in wait. When the enemy drops down into the corridor, simply detonate the C4 and then open fire in semiautomatic mode (or in short bursts, if you can't switch fire modes). Using a flash suppressor makes it extremely difficult for them to see you, so they can't easily pinpoint you for target practice; you have infinite ammo and regenerate health. I went on a 12-kill spree this way before they finally brought in an engineer to RPG me.

****

I tooled around with the Recon class as soon as I heard that you could equip iron sights with sniper rifles, and my impressions are as follows:

Semi-auto sniper rifles are ****ing BROKEN.

I am, by definition, a terrible player. Though I tend to be in the top 5 on my team, and though I support my team whenever I can, I'm all heart and all aggression, so my k/d ratio is no more than 1.3 to 1 -- for every match in which I go 22 and 7, there's a match in which I go 7 in 15, so it evens out over time.

Nevertheless, even a player as bad as I am can own face using the semi-auto sniper rifles over iron sights. You can reliably get one-hit kills on solitary targets, and you can rapidly tap the trigger while aiming down the sights to effectively deal with large numbers of enemies.

My first time out, I went 11 and 1 with the SVD. Since then, I've sworn off the recon class. It's simply too good. I honestly feel that these weapons should do no more than twice the damage of assault rifles, maybe even 1.5x or 1.25x.

******

Overall balance impressions:

1). Recon deployable spawn point ought to have a set number of charges (i.e. people should be able to spawn no more than X times before the spawn point breaks); it also should be planted, not thrown, to prevent min-maxers from abusing exploits.

2). I can't help but feel that explosives should not be able to be planted on the MAVs; leastwise, you should at least be able to SPOT them. They're deucedly hard to hit, in any case, which makes C4 divebombs problematic.

(Question: can Stingers lock on to MAVs?)

I've actually been killed by RPGs no more than a handful of times, so it doesn't appear to be a problem anywhere NEAR the order of Carl Gustav spam. Far more problematic to me are the semi-auto sniper rifles, which have killed me countless times.

Though I'm thankful for the scope glare (which allows me to spot snipers with ease), I do feel it should be more like the flash that comes off your wristwatch, and not the mini-flashlight it currently is.

On the few occasions I've encountered shotguns, they've killed me before I had a chance to react. I lack sufficient data to comment, though.

The UMP45 seems to be the gun of choice for running-and-gunning.

That's all for now. Sorry if I said too much.

rubionubio: your avatar is hypnotic.

[rubionubio]

Haha thanks, and welcome to the family Gaius.

Towards the Heavy Barrel attachment: In BC2 (note: NOT BF3) some of the guns - most associated with the F2000 - had a non-zero random spread number that applied whether resting ADS'd or not. Or, in short, they did NOT always hit where you aimed them, when compared to the "normal" ARs. It was made up for by having a smaller-than-average hipspread, both while moving and while stationary, and the fact that movement decreased accuracy less than on your average AR. Does that make sense? Now, I have no way of confirming that this mechanic is even present in BF3 let alone if the Heavy Barrel affects it, it's all postulation on my end. I'm just trying to find a way that the HB attachment would affect the gun at a level equivalent to the other attachments (which have a very noticeable effect) like the Grip for instance. In Real Life the benefits of having a heavier barrel would be increased durability and heat dissipation/acclimation (meaning longer sustained fire) and a stronger breech wall, meaning the ability to use a higher grain load in your cartridge, translating to increased muzzle velocity (which in game would translate to a flatter trajectory and faster bullet travel, as well as increased damage at shorter ranges before those joules bleed off to regular levels -- But the attachment says it doesn't affect damage so who knows.) There's no durability and no sustained-fire penalty (which, frankly, I'm surprised at), so that would leave the other effects. Again, these are all hypotheticals based on the real-world equivalent -- which DICE is generally pretty good with following, at least inspiration-wise -- but could have easily been thrown out the window for the sake of balance.

I would definitely agree that there's a noticeable increase in bullet drop on the ARs. Which could be the decreased muzzle velocities of the ARs leading to increased bullet drop when compared to the sniper rifles, which would dovetail nicely with my theory above -- Namely that different guns (or types) have differing bullet speed/trajectory -- which would also fit with DICE's intention to make this game as accurate as possible. Just a hunch though.

That trick with the LMG and that far right corridor is indeed brutal. It's even better when paired with a partner on the scaffolding above that can cover the approach from the left side (the little hallway) as that's always how I seem to get killed at that spot. The trick is definitely to get there ASAP after the stage changes, as you HAVE to pick them off before they can get entrenched behind those rocks.

Oh, and the flashlight-like effect you're talking about on the snipers could actually be the flashlight. I've seen a lot of idiots using the things outside because they don't look at their attachments before they respawn or whatever. The only reason I say that is because I have also seen scope glare act normally, IE similar to how your watch flashes on your screen when prone outside in certain areas.

[gaius]

Rubio,

Thanks for that description -- it pretty much jives with my memory from Den's charts and my experiences in BC2.

Next time I play, I'll check out whether or not the heavy barrel has any effect on bullet drop.

The only reason I asked was as follows: if (and only if) you already have "perfect accuracy" for the first shot fired when aimed down sights (which rather makes sense), then the only way a heavy barrel would increase your accuracy is by decreasing the rate of spread increase as you fire. At the same time, though, you'd have to fight the recoil.

If it has the same effect whilst firing from the hip, then the heavy barrel has a similar effect to Marksman Training in BC2 (which reduces base spread, if I recall correctly).

But like I said: I spend a lot of time aimed down sights and in semiautomatic mode.

Some projects that I intend to report on (any assistance would be awesome):
1). Bullet drop and muzzle velocity discrepancies between different weapons, accessories, and weapon families (LMGs, ARs, semi-auto snipers rifles, bolt-action sniper rifles, carbines, and PDWs). There APPEARS to be a discrepancy between AK-model and AR-model weapon bullet drop, but I can't confirm (it's deucedly hard to test these things when people are shooting at you).

2). Crosshair spread between different weapons in different positions and with different attachments.

3). Recoil modifiers between different weapon configurations.

All-in-all, it's a VERY deep game for those who look, and I very much enjoy the in-game physics such as bullet drop and muzzle velocity. Looking forward to learning more.

Also: I find I'm enjoying the combined arms aspects of the game. Since it's streamlined with four classes, everyone has something to do at all times, and class balance seems to be spot on (with some glaring exceptions, of course -- hopefully those will be smoothed over).

For example, Assault gets a variety of grenade types for their launcher, including anti-armor grenades, allowing them to function as a mini-engineer OR a medic, as they prefer.

Though they can use their launchers for the obvious anti-personnel and anti-armor purposes, Engineers can also field man-portable anti-air weapons (which should even things up in maps with helicopters!) AND they can send EOD bots to secure MCOM stations.

To be honest, I'm really glad they gave engineers Stinger launchers -- I was really worried about helicopters and jets. Well do I remember the days of Battlefield 2 (remember Sharqi Peninsula?) in which a single helicopter could turn the tide of battle simply because there was no way of taking it out besides the Stinger stations -- and any good chopper pilot knew how to avoid those. But Stingers, I think, will mean that anti-air attacks can, and will, come from ANYWHERE.

Support has LOTS of stuff to do. Besides supplying their buddies with ammo, they can hold strong points, deploy C4 (good for sneaky traps AND taking out armor in a pinch), AND use mortars! I'm very much looking forward to using mortars as support.

Aside from headshots and deployable sensors, Recon can also get points for allowing people to spawn (I still think that thing should be planted, not thrown), using the MAV (thank god it has no weapons), and using their target designator.

To be honest, the target designator has a LOT of potential in vehicular maps. I wonder if it can also attract support mortars and Engineer missiles?

The possibilities abound!

[volgon]

The Radio Beacon ISN'T thrown. It's planted where you are standing when you place it on the ground.

[fazzmania]

And you don't get points when people spawn off it.

[kuzuranger]

Just to answer a few questions posted above:

1. Heavy Barrel gives better accuracy for single-fire mode, but adds recoil on full-auto firing mode. This was explained in the BF3 blog some time ago, yet they managed to make the explanation extremely vague for in-game.

2. One of the devs recently posted about damage. He confirmed that it takes 6 shots at long range to kill with an assault rifle.

[undoubledzim]

suppressors have a noticeable effect on muzzel velocity with the AS VAL (vss) you can watch the bullets go everywhere through a 4x scope

most of the carbine/pdw's seem to have very little recoil but huge bullet spread at long ranges

[didjeridu]

Oct 6, 2011 6:03:53 GMT -5 kuzuranger said:

2. One of the devs recently posted about damage. He confirmed that it takes 6 shots at long range to kill with an assault rifle.

I don't like that quote. It makes it sound like every AR does the same damage, at least at range. If so, then I don't see the point of using any AR besides the AEK/F2000.

[undoubledzim]

alrighty so did somme rough testing today point blank shots on friend who would tell me the damage done suppressors have a large damage falloff

so much so that even a few feet was changing the damage but didint have enough time to to go back and test them again

Ak-74m 25
m16 25
m416 25

Scar-H 33
m4a1 25

m27 Iar 25

sv98 75
mk 11 60
sks 31 (this might be 33 was using a suprressor)

p90 17 (this might be 20)
PDW 25
as val 20
ump 33 wasent tested but from experience seeing 66% or 33% on killcams

m9 30
grach 30
g17 30
g18 17 (might be 20)
.44 60

knife 33

direct impact with a grenade did 80

I know its not much or very exact but trying to help = )

[Flubadoo]

If the above post was true:

Why the hell is the SKS so weak in comparison to other semi sniper rfles?

[SheWolf]

well it's more of an assault carbine really. it's no good for sniping per se. but you can spam the trigger much much faster than with the semiautos.

still, in their current broken state svd and mk11 pretty much beat it on every distance i think.

[Flubadoo]

Something that intrigues me about game designers is why they always manage to make something ridiculously overpowered. Just by looking at the numbers you can see how it's so much better than all it's counterparts. Do they not know what numbers are?

[SheWolf]

i have several theories about that fact:

- they are just lazy and hope no one will find it out / care.
- there are several people responsible for it, or it gets changed arround often, or both, classical case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand does.
- after the success of the previous games they just do it once they see the bottom of the cocain bucket and thus are buzzed out of their Foxtroting skulls.

...

that's it actually. but i'd be interested too.

[Lexapro]

Oct 7, 2011 7:53:02 GMT -5 Flubadoo said:

Something that intrigues me about game designers is why they always manage to make something ridiculously overpowered. Just by looking at the numbers you can see how it's so much better than all it's counterparts. Do they not know what numbers are?

That's a really shortsighted view, IMHO. It's pretty clear that the developers do, in fact, "know what numbers are" and that they have put a lot of work into balancing the game. What you have to consider is that the efficacy of a weapon can not be determined from numbers alone. It takes extensive testing like this, in a variety of a situations by a large number of players, to really get a sense for what works and what doesn't.

On paper, the SKS and Mk11/SVD could appear to be balanced. The default snipers should have moderate recoil and ROF and kill in 2 shots at any range, or a single headshot up close. Let's make the SKS have lower recoil, faster ROF, and kill in 3 shots consistently (2 headshots). Seems pretty balanced to me. No other weapon can boast a 3 shot kill at any range, the UMP is only that powerful (theoretically) at short distances.

The issue comes, I think, from being able to use the Mk11/SVD with iron sights and other short range optics. The ACOG makes sense, the Eotech: not so much. That flexibility should be given to the SKS and similar weapons, allowing it to fill in the role of battle rifle. The default snipers should also have a bit more recoil and sway, but otherwise, I think the idea is fine. DICE just bungled up the execution a little bit, though that's what Betas are for, isn't it?

[SheWolf]

lexapro, but how do you explain some of the obvious inferior things, maybe not in bf3, but for example black ops, where some weapons literally were just superior in every way and shape to others.

[Lexapro]

Well I can't really speak to that. I was only talking about DICE, who have had better track record with patching post-release to address balance issues. It's pretty apparent that Black Ops was just a lazy copy and paste job with some random numbers changed here and there. Thankfully not all developers are like that.

Take IW with MW2 for comparison. Perhaps some guns were stronger than others, but at least each weapon was unique. It's much more difficult to balance guns when every single one has a different ROF, recoil pattern, ammo cap etc. but at least they tried to have some diversity. Black Ops just had reskins of the same 4 or 5 actually different weapon types and even then, they managed to screw it up.

[dranozir]

for the M60 : 3 bullet at short range

for the M98B : one bullet at short range !

[Flubadoo]

Ehh things like the M60 vs. PKM (PKM better in every way) still annoy me, and the fact that Black Ops literally has two rates of fire (750 and 975) really confuses me.

[dogeyedboy]

No luck with getting beta numbers then? I know some of them will change, but it'd be nice to have the stats to look over while waiting for the full game.

[SheWolf]

probably not worth it, since it's quite possible that a lot of stuff is getting a major overhaul..

[rudybojangles]

Well it was a good beta, not great.

I really hope that I used the semi-automatic snipers enough in it to:
A.) Change lobbies from balanced to Mk 11/SVD lobbies, and
B.) Give DICE enough data to realize that even when there isn't a 2x damage bug, that they need work.

I know it's a recurring theme, but it seems like a 2 hit kill up close just doesn't work. Let's do a quick compare-o between BC2 and BF3.

The most applicable comparison is between the Mk.11/SVD and the SVU/T88S/M14. Those guns in BC2 were 3 shots at any range (with Magnum), OHKO on head extremely close, and had appreciable recoil that took a good amount of time to settle for range shots. The Mk.11/SVD kill in 2 shots close, 3 at range, have much less recoil and much faster recoil recovery, what I think is a faster fire-rate, and have a longer OHKO range, from what I can tell.

This means that, while guns do more damage, you can put nearly double the hits on target compared with the BC2 variants, and the 2HKO up close reduces the TTK by half up close. All the guns got powerful; the semi-auto snipers were godlike. The ability to put a laser sight on it made it an acceptable CQB weapon as well.

I think that DICE should either drastically change recoil/hipspread on these guns and keep the damage profile constant, or adopt a BC2-style damage profile.

PDWs are a bit too good beyond shotgun range, the M4 has no recoil, and bolt-action snipers are niche, but I don't know if those will change. I really hope DICE looks into balancing PDWs, the best games I had besides the semi-auto snipers were mowing down people with a 40rd. PP2K clip.

Sorry, ranting is unhealthy. I hope DICE changes the hit-registration mechanism being client-side over back to server side. And I hope that they balance the poop out of this game.

1 last thing, it takes way to many mines to wipe out tanks in one go... I laid down 4 mines (don't know if they all actuated) and got merely a "Vehicle Disabled" notification..

[saddaminsane]

i don't get why they made all the guns stronger but made the bolt actions weaker.
C4 against tanks seems to be weaker too, needing all 3 (the amount held by default) to take one out. I even shot a heli with a tank shell but it just gave me a vehicle disable- Looks like mines aren't that effective either too- im guessing DICE likes engineers getting gritty with RPG's .

About Helicoptors- their controls seem easier and they are a bit easier to fly- aiming towards the ground won't cause you to go towards a death dive as much, but now they have to deal with stingers that can take out their engines and make them harder to control as they will lean one side

PDW's are not neccesarily too strong, but they are extremely reliable, having low recoil and tight hip spread.

Shooting an enemy will make them flinch uncontrollably like in COD, which means 2 consequtive headshots at close range is going to be slightly harder- might as well just knife or spray at the chest/neck.

[SheWolf]

i think they didn't want the bolt action rifles to be one hit kills to the body. if you ever played BC2 in HC mode you know exactly why..

[saddaminsane]

lol i know exaclty what you mean, i just thought maybe they could have a similar damage model to bc2 where at close ranges (~10 meters) it was a 1HKO . They should at least make it a 1 hit for chests at close range, just to compensate

[SheWolf]

i don't think there are seperate chest damage areas..it's probably the same as in bc2. just two hitzones. head and not head^^

[Keralastic]

I think they should adopt a more Call of Duty style system for the sniper rifles, I can't stand getting one-shotted up close by some Recon after I already put four bullets into him.

[saddaminsane]

i wonder what hardcore mode would be like
damage models are pretty spot on right now (excluding damage glitch), so hardcore mode would probably feel a lot like COD- except on a battlefield map...ehhhh

[SheWolf]

shame, i would like HC with the same damage as now, but without hud. (with maybe the exeption of a spotting system. the complete lack of spotting in BC2 HC irritated the hell out of me)

[Keralastic]

I dunno, the damage values now are pretty high, hardcore would probably be more like Call of Duty, where most weapons kill in 1-2 shots.

They might not do that considering it would probably make getting around on big maps nearly impossible without a vehicle though.

[rudybojangles]

Oct 6, 2011 18:24:12 GMT -5 undoubledzim said:

alrighty so did somme rough testing today point blank shots on friend who would tell me the damage done suppressors have a large damage falloff

so much so that even a few feet was changing the damage but didint have enough time to to go back and test them again

Ak-74m 25
m16 25
m416 25

Scar-H 33
m4a1 25

m27 Iar 25

sv98 75
mk 11 60
sks 31 (this might be 33 was using a suprressor)

p90 17 (this might be 20)
PDW 25
as val 20
ump 33 wasent tested but from experience seeing 66% or 33% on killcams

m9 30
grach 30
g17 30
g18 17 (might be 20)
.44 60

knife 33

direct impact with a grenade did 80

I know its not much or very exact but trying to help = )

Really good stuff.

I also agree with the comment that AR's could use some damage differentiation; having standardized bullet damage is not only lazy, it's unbalanced. F2000 was not used by myself. However, my brother, who sits right next to me, commented that it was by far the most powerful AR in the game, and switching to the AN, AEK, and M416 were terrible after unlocking everything on the F2K.

I just REALLY REALLY wished that they would put in limb damage multipliers, I guess the servers were already taxed enough with the registration of "headshot" or "not headshot." Why take the game tech back to before MoH was released? Doesn't make too much sense. That way, skill, instead of aiming at ankles and winning (like BO, without the viewkick) would prevail.

I heard from Demize99 (twitter) that something like 10s of work-years have been put into the final build since the Beta build. That is so reassuring to me . Also, he mentioned things like having many more weapons (as to be expected), less sighted accuracy when full auto, rebalanced AS VAL, and other things. Love following him, but I know he's holding back on a lot of the important topics. Also, he said that the semi-auto snipers will have a smaller 2HKO (and I assume, by default 1HKO to head) range. Seems like the nagging bugs have been fixed and at least some of the balance issues addressed.