As you can tell, I'm not exactly an ace pilot. My BF3 piloting skills is something like a drunk Asian driving for the first time in his life. Currently lost 5 jets: 1 to a tree, 1 before take off, 1 to lag + ground, 1 flew off the map, and 1 to missiles + ground.
So: 1. Is there anyway to improve my jet flying skills offline? 2. How do I setup a proper strafing run? 3. Anything that makes finding targets easier? It seems hard to find targets without anyone marking them. 4. Is there any notable differences between the F-18 and Su-35? 5. Is there any notable differences between the A-10 and Su-25? 6. Is there any good maneuvers to evade missiles aside from flares?
And also some questions about taking out aircraft: 7. Can tank shells hit jets and helicopters? 8. Can heavy machine guns damage jets? 9. How do you hit the jet if the pilot is carrying flares? 10. Where do you aim after locking onto a jet with missiles in order to improve the chance of getting a hit?
Last Edit: Oct 31, 2011 2:03:52 GMT -5 by whoknows10
some noob answers. these are just best guesses is just based on my experience.
1. not that i know of. i assume single player has a jet mission though? 2. i like to get a lot of altitude and distance from the target and take it slow, mid 200s speed. 3. not that i know of. i keep the map zoomed all the way out and enlarged when i fly, so that when aircraft/vehicles are spotted i know where they are right away. 4. they seem wholly identical. 5. what map are these planes on? i haven't seen them yet. 6. i don't think so. i used to try to stay low and afterburner around a hill but i don't think it's ever worked.
7. yes. i killed a helicopter with the abrams main cannon today, it was pretty sweet. 8. the ones on jeeps and tanks can at least cause hit markers if i recall correctly. i think the support-class mgs have negligible/no effect on jets. 9. assuming you're in an aircraft: flares can only fire once every x seconds. i think you can get two missile locks faster than he can pop two flares if you stay on his tail. you can also delay firing the missile when you have a lock to see if he'll panic and pop the flares early, then reacquire the lock and shoot before he can pop them again. honestly i stick to the gun nowadays and equip rocket pods to hit ground targets. 10. as far as i know where you aim after you fire has no effect.
i dont fly much, so Ill stick to the last 4 questions =)
7. As above, yes. Ypou can hit them, its hard though... but darn satisfying when you pull it off =)
8. Yes they do, the coaxial HMG on the main tank turret also damages them. The damage is not amazing, but its something.
9.As for shooting them down.... Lock on, wait for him to waste the flares. The pilots only see they have been locked on, not that a missile is incoming. So do a lock, wait... once flares are gone, shoot. Often the flares will kill your lock, so you need to relock on.
10. Makes no difference. The lock on is what does the aiming.. once it is locked and you shot, move on.
1. Is there anyway to improve my jet flying skills offline? Nope.
2. How do I setup a proper strafing run? First, be an A-10 or Frogfoot. Second, SLOOOOOOOOOW DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWN. Hold that Throttle Down button and get to 200 speed. Third, CANNON. Focus your crosshairs right on the tank and fire in rapid bursts so that it doesn't overheat, maybe use Belt Speed. It is ideal for the A-10/SU-25 to approach from a relatively low altitude with lots of time to keep firing the main cannon. The cannon is the most powerful air-to-ground weapon in the game.
If in a Flanker or Hornet, use Rocket Pods and saturate the area or the Guided Missile with Beam Scanning.
For a SU-35/F-18 using Rocket Pods, a high angle of attack bombing is quite effective (for both staying on target and minimizing enemy targeting on the approach), flying up to 900m and then pointing straight down on the target to litter it with rockets.
3. Anything that makes finding targets easier? It seems hard to find targets without anyone marking them. If enemy air isn't spotted by you or someone else, you're probably going to "find" them as they're shooting you from behind. To prevent getting shot and prevent being spotted yourself: Stay on the outskirts of the map, look out the side of the plane while coasting on the edge to get an overview of the battlefield. Fly low so you can silhouette the enemy aircraft in the sky; they'll be difficult to spot against the ground.
Again, circle around and approach the map from the enemy side - that way you will likely catch enemy armor from behind as they're approaching the objectives, if not an enemy jet as it is taxiing from the strip.
Complaints about preying on landed aircraft will not change the fact that it is the best opportunistic attack; not doing so out of a sense of honor or fair play is not one "winners" subscribe to. If they don't want you attacking their home, they'll get in the AA and ward you off. Or kick/ban you.
Also note that when a vehicle is unoccupied, it is gray on the map to everyone. If it vanishes, an enemy has just gotten in it. Hunt it down immediately.
4. Is there any notable differences between the F-18 and Su-35? 5. Is there any notable differences between the A-10 and Su-25? Nope, they're identical to their opposition. No J-10 statistically outperforming and being virtually unbeatable against a Harrier here.
6. Is there any good maneuvers to evade missiles aside from flares? A simple Immelman. Since you can't look straight behind you, you have to pinpoint the origin of the missile launch on the radar or by some other means. Make a hard 180° turn (by hitting the brakes to temporarily increase your turn rate until you reach bottom speed, then let go to maintain corner speed) and then slowly continue turning in that direction. If you can get at least perpendicular to the missile, it is sure to pass behind you, unable to match you.
Similarly in a helicopter, move perpendicular to the missile. This will usually mean finding the incoming direction of the missile, cutting all lift and picking a direction to plummet as it flies over you. That quick drop will hopefully evade the missile OR have you put something in between you and the shooter, like terrain or a building.
If they're aiming up at you from below, you're probably screwed unless you can bug out real quick as the helicopters generally seem to be able to survive one missile at full health.
7. Can tank shells hit jets and helicopters? Yes. They will do enough to disable any aircraft and send them reeling, but not outright destroy it at full health.
8. Can heavy machine guns damage jets? Yes. Chip damage. No handheld infantry guns can damage jets, though.
9. How do you hit the jet if the pilot is carrying flares? Guns. Fire one missile to make him pop flares, reacquire him and then fire the second before he reloads the next Flare.
Note that there is a distinct difference between: Someone locking on to you (slow, low beeping) Having been locked on to (solid tone) Incoming missiles (high pitched beeping)
Popping flares on the first two will break the lock as long as the flares are in the way, but the enemy will not have fired his payload. Flares once the missile is incoming will break them off of you and the enemy will need to reload.
So be patient BUT soon after you hear that high pitch, let the flares loose. You want to reload flares as soon as possible, not let him reload earlier than you. It's the optimal defense even though it is a gamble. Even if he only fires one missile, you don't want any of them hitting you (unless you decide to use the other type of countermeasure) and you don't want to be vulnerable any longer than necessary.
10. Where do you aim after locking onto a jet with missiles in order to improve the chance of getting a hit? Right at them. You can't exactly look away from them or else you'll break your lock. If you're tailing him in another jet, get as close as possible to minimize his window of opportunity and ability for effective maneuvers.
5. Is there any notable differences between the A-10 and Su-25?
[/u][/b] Nope, they're identical to their opposition. No J-10 statistically outperforming and being virtually unbeatable against a Harrier here.[/quote]
In the same vein, is there a difference between the attack helis (AH-1Z Viper and MI-28 Havoc)? It feels like the handling/manouverability is better with the Viper (plus the cockpit obstructs the screen way less). It also seems smaller, maybe that's why.
Here's one tip that should be useful, haven't had too much opportunity to try it out though. If there's a jet on your tails, try flying directly into the sun and then breaking away, preferably downwards. If you aren't spotted the other jet wont know where you went for a few moments.
and if you're chasing someone, always spot them to prevent that.
Last Edit: Oct 31, 2011 12:23:24 GMT -5 by maradona
Post by saddaminsane on Oct 31, 2011 17:42:29 GMT -5
protip Use the sun. In BC2 it made it harder for enemies to shoot down your heli's unless they had super high contrast In BF3 it makes your enemy go virtually blind- like having a giant flashlight backing you up, use the high ground when it's oppurtunistic
I just started flying myself and am loving it. I recommend watching a couple of youtube jet tutorials and practicing in some flight practice servers before making a public spectacle of yourself.
Here is a long random collection of my thoughts and tips from videos.
I managed to cheese my way to flares and most of the way to heat seekers somehow before I really knew how to fly; they are both really early unlocks points wise.
Heatseekers are not that good, as many pilots will be running flares, stealth, or ECM, and you can tank 1 missile hit at full health anyways.
In dogfights, you generally want to wait till you have a good shot lined up then open up with the main guns, and hopefully disable/kill in 1 burst. The heatseekers will alert your presence, and the enemy will start flying more evasively, making your life that much harder.
If you can, put yourself into 3rd person view to help see more until you need to aim at the enemy.
When you get it, air radar is really good for chasing jets and getting them off your tail, as well as for identifying other possible targets/threats. If you don't have air radar, zoom out your minimap, and blow it up if you want to see in more detail. Make sure to spot everything you see in addition to spamming spot on the ground for possible enemies. Also pay special attention to when the enemy jets become occupied(the empty jet icons disappear from the map).
When I find that I'm getting tailed, I basically constantly turn as tightly as I can until hopefully the guy overshoots or loses track of me, which I'll know from the air radar, and then pull in behind him.
When you want to make a tight turn quickly, you should decelerate into your turns and accelerate out with afterburners.
I usually stay to the outside of the map, and look for enemy jets to get behind. Once you are behind someone, they are gonna have a really hard time shaking you, especially with the air radar.
If I am confident that there are no enemy jets or they are far away, then I'll go chase down a helicopter or ground targets before returning to looking for jets again.
I run rocket pods most of the time, and a full salvo of rocket pods and a few shots from the main cannons will usually at least disable a tank.
A lot of people give jet pilots flak for focusing on dog fights, but you have to in order to stay alive, so pay a lot of attention to the enemy jets, and engage them asap. This will frustrate a lot of less skilled/persistent pilots, and hopefully you can spend more time going after tanks and helicopters.
Luckily I have found that many jet pilots are not very good right now, so get cracking before there are a lot of pros that can smoke you at their leisure.
I set my game and mouse sensitivity to max when I fly, and that kind of makes the guided missile unusable, but rocket pods are fine really. I see no need to go to guided unless you're in Touch Football with no 3d spotting.
Leave the centurion/phalanx or pantsir wide bearth if they are manned. Although, If the base is unguarded, then go ahead and spawn kill some jets/helis or steal one of their jets or their helicopter.
The tunguska and lav-ad are a PITA. You should only try to catch it when it's otherwise occupied or somehow oblivious of you. I usually keep my distance from mobile AA as much as possible, which sucks since they can cover a very long range.
Flying jets is not that hard, although surviving, aiming, and gaining situational awareness require practice, this is the same with the helicopters. The helicopters get much better ground effectiveness in return for being easier to take down. If you really want to ground pound, then the helicopters should probably be your go to air vehicles.
I really want to pilot helicopters more, but a backseat repairman or a good gunner w/ unlocks is necessary, and you have to dodge missile locks constantly any time you are remotely close to the action. It's a bit too much for me , at least they're easy to land when they're disabled lol.
There's a another huge problem with helicopter balance that, while not so big now, is gonna blow up IMO. Once more people have CITV for the tanks, it's gonna be much harder to be effective in a helicopters. I think it'll eventually boil down to a ECM + tv guided missiles vs. CITV + guided shells deadlock.
In a jet, you can just fly above the mess, and it feels like a majority of tracking missiles can be dodged without much trouble. Although jets have their own problem of having to engage enemy jets constantly, but I find this fun...
For Touch Football mode flying:
The air radar becomes nearly indispensable.
Use free look frequently.
Land and repair before you get disabled, as there is no vehicle regeneration. May want to switch to extinguishers. It is super hard to land a disabled jet. I've done it once(takes lots of luck) out of probably around 10 tries.
The plus to HC is that the good pilots are probably not going to be there. No 3d spotting cuts jet effectiveness severely on ground targets, and no 3rd person view makes spotting tracking jets/helis by eye harder. The lack of vehicle regen also hits jets harder than any other vehicle. It sounds pretty bad, but the lesser air threat will make surviving in a non training server less stressful while you gain your footing in the sky.
Random map advice(mostly for CQ): On Noshahr(spelling?) canal, don't even bother flying a jet on the Russian side, unless your team absolutely needs an attack chopper destroyed. On American side, if you have the fixed AA backing you, then it's all easy pickings. Don't try to do any loops going vertically up, you'll stall into low the sky ceiling.
If you approach from behind mountains, the fixed AA on Firestorm get short notice when you attempt to hit their base.
The Kharg fixed AAs have good range, and if the Mobile AA decides to camp on the mountain, it can be a hassle to get around. The US carrier has no AA though, and can be attacked fairly easily, because the centurion is usually looking at the battlefield instead of the carrier. The RU side with the tunguska and closely placed pantsir seems to have more protection.
Mountains are your friends for hiding behind and dodging locks.Though I have encountered gangs of stinger equipped engineers tactical loitering on mountain tops so YMMV...
Flying in a straight line or making slow/easy maneuvers will make you very easy to hit in a dogfight.
And finally, don't be afraid of changing your load out to fit the situation. ___________ TL;DR: Be persistent, practice, and hope that the enemy pilot isn't better than you are.
flying is fun but god do they need to nerf mobile and maybe even static AA a bit. you spend x minutes deadlocked in a dogfight with a competent enemy pilot; finally you triumph, if you're lucky your teammate has too and you have a 40 second window to hit some other targets - helicoptors, enemy ground units, whatever. while evading enemy stingers and air-to-air missiles from attack choppers, get ready to die in < 1 sec to enemy AA cannons.
there's no way to even kill them really either, a full salvo from the rocket pods will disable them at best, whereupon they get out and fully repair before your next pass (or just stay inside and shoot you down as you complete your first pass, whichever suits their fancy). you MIGHT be able to destroy them with rockets if you are able to hit them from behind, but attacking any enemy armor from behind generally means flying directly over the enemy stationary AA, which is just insta-death. the guided missiles with beam scanner miss all of the time, all they have to do is pop IR smoke and move a bit and it misses 100% of the time. and of course the jet cannons are a joke against anything on the ground. bummer!!
(this is regarding the F18 and SU-27; hopefully the ground attack planes fare better but they aren't featured in 64-man conquest so I haven't used them yet)
Post by saddaminsane on Nov 13, 2011 11:39:23 GMT -5
dude jet cannons are made of bawss try turning your throttle down, carefully place those first 14 rocket shots, and a follow up with the cannons should finish off any ground vehicle- assuming they aren't moving
I don't have the game, sadly. T_T So I don't know just how realistic the flight modeling is. Not very, would be my assumption. I also know that the flight ceiling is quite low on the maps, and lower on some than others. That makes me a bit sad.
Still I think there are lessons that might be learned from RL and applied here, so I'd encourage anyone looking to up their game to do a little research into RL dogfighting. Also, absolutely, positively, do not feel bad for spending nearly all your time fighting air to air combat vs other jets. You have to keep in mind that air to air combat is exactly what those aircraft are designed for, and there's a reason why there is such a huge emphasis on it. IRL fighter jets don't generally go after ground targets until air superiority has been established. That means dominating the airspace, and it is absolutely key to victory in joint arms. It doesn't do you any good to shoot ground targets or helicopters if it gets you shot down and knocked out of commission. BUT, if you can get in control of the airspace then you can prevent the enemy team's fighters from doing anything beyond engaging you, while opening up opportunities for you to knock out some targets of opportunity. It really doesn't matter if you spend the whole game shooting down other jets, it just means your helicopters and ground vehicles were that much safer to conduct the ground campaign. Well if you were effective anyway. ;p
Den's suggestion of using an Immelmann turn as a missile defense sounds pretty good. Going vertical will trade airspeed for altitude and allow you to make the a very tight turn. Keep in mind that an Immelmann is a vertical turn. That means you start out flying strait and level and pull back hard. You keep pulling until the horizon comes back into view, upside down. Then you roll rightside up to return to level. You wind up higher, slower, and facing the opposite direction from where you started. I'm not sure if you can stall your aircraft, short of hitting the flight ceiling, but if you can be careful to avoid that. If you don't have the vertical space for it you can try a pitchback, which is just the same thing but you start off not totally level, but banked at an angle to the right or left. It's sort of a diagonal Immelmann. It won't trade as much speed but it also won't gain as much altitude.
Keep your pursuit curves in mind when getting into a turning war. If you are leading the target in lead pursuit then you will tend to be closing on them rapidly. If you're not going significantly slower than them you will eventually overshoot and that's generally bad. But you generally need to lead to line up gun shots. Be wary if he pulls even tighter, especially since the aircraft in this game are basically identical. That means no inherent maneuverability advantage. (Something you pretty much never see IRL, but this ain't no flight sim.) If you are aiming right at him then you're in pure pursuit. Keep in mind that at the same speed as him you are still closing while in pure pursuit, just not as fast. It'll take longer to overshoot, but you still can. Pure pursuit is what you want for locking missiles. Lag pursuit means you're aiming behind him, which could have you maintaining separation, or even increasing it. Generally if you're in lag pursuit then you don't currently have a good shot but should be looking for an opportunity.
I'm not gonna mention a whole lot of other stuff, but I thought I would bream up low and high yo-yo turns. Basically the idea is to turn in 3 dimensions instead of just trying to match a horizontal turn. If you pull up high turn hard and come back down you'll temporarily lose airspeed and cut your turn radius. A high yo-yo helps you correct an overshoot, allowing you to theoretically alternate between lead pursuit and high yo-yo turns on a constantly turning enemy, and keep lining them up in your guns over and over at the end of each yo-yo. If you need to gain on your target you can do a low yo-yo, dipping down into a bit of a dive as you turn, and then pulling back up as you close. This allows you to close with your target by gaining speed, and still maintain a your turn, in fact cutting across his turn radius when viewed from above because your turn is made in 3 dimensions. There's probably not a huge amount of room for such maneuvers with the limited airspace, and I don't know how well the game models flight and energy management. But it's something to consider.
There's actually quite a bit more that might be put to use. With enough vertical room I think you might even manage barrel rolls. I'd also suggest reading on scissors, high-side guns pass, and so forth. With a partner you might even pull off a defensive split or some wingleader, wingman types of traps where neither partner can be attacked without the attacker being vulnerable.
I didn't mention it due to the low flight ceilings, but if you know what you're doing and do so very quickly you can also use an Immelmann to change direction very quickly to any direction you choose. You basically perform the first half of it and when you're pointed strait up you roll around so that the top of the plane is pointed the direction you want to go. Then you just keep pulling back on the stick and finish the Immelmann like normal. One reason I mention it is because if you're using an Immelmann as a missile defense then performing this maneuver would mean you the first half of it would be the same no matter which direction the missile is coming from. You then just roll midway through to put the missile above your head and keep pulling into it. There may not be much time for it, but just in case there is... there you go.
Also I wouldn't recommend the opposite... the split-s. A split-s might have some uses, but it increases your airspeed and thus elongates your turn radius... not generally what you want to do with a missile after you. Also it'd be my guess that most archair "pilots" in BF3 will wind up hitting the ground at near full speed if they go around trying to do split-s's. heh Then again while it may not be the best defensive maneuver IRL it could have some potential there in BF3 considering your attacker is likely to either disengage or crash. I'd suggest practice first, and from high altitude, though. You can of course similarly come out of a split-s in any direction by using a roll midway through.
Do not get the fixed AA's attention lol. Any thing that approaches within 150m of it is gonna get smacked down hard, add 100m to that if the guy can aim. They say 2 TV guided missiles can do the trick against fixed AA, but TV guided missiles are a pretty late unlock and are buggy right now. I don't really think they should be nerfed though, as there are few other ways to stop someone from base raping or stealing a jet or heli and really unbalancing the air fight.
It used to be gosh darn golly gee whiz scary when a jet swooped in for a bombing run.
Now when I'm in a tank, they don't even phase me, and as infantry, my only interaction with a jet is when I try to shoot one down with a stinger.
Jets are weak as can be, but it's still a hell of a lot better than being in a helicopter. The outskirts of a map is are usually safe for jets, and you can go in and out fairly quickly. The helis get nothing but a possible 2nd set of countermeasures. If more than 2 or 3 people decide they want a helicopter dead, then it has pretty much no chance. If a mobile AA decides it wants that copter dead, then it has about 2 seconds to live once it's in range.
The mobile AA does need to be toned down. In addition to their death cannons, the lock on range of their rockets is ridiculous. They were fine in BF2, idk why dice decided to make their main guns able to shoot so long before needing to cool down. Hopefully they'll at least nerf the knockdown effect of the AA turrets.
The attack jets have super power cannons that can kill tanks in 1 pass fairly easily, but aren't as maneuverable. They may have better armor IDK. There's no mobile AA in most rush maps, so you just have to worry about that 1 enemy jet, and then you can go to town.
Beam scanner in my experience is mostly useful for getting other pilots with the heat seekers. You can lock on and shoot your second set of rockets faster than they can deploy flares, so if you can stick behind a jet/heli for about 10 seconds, it's almost an automatic kill. I use it if there's that 1 ace making things difficult for me. Still, it's not worth the trade off of losing air radar and rocket pods for the vast majority of situations.
I've honestly only used the guided ATG missiles about 2 times. The mouse sensitivity I use to fly with make it a pain in the butt to use. They seem to be about the same as javelins so...
The flight ceiling is not a problem on maps when doing 3-d maneuvers, like a split-s for instance. There is a couple hundred meters (or whatever unit the altitude readout is giving) of wiggle room on every map for most vertical maneuvering, except for the canal map, which has practically no room at all for vertical maneuvers. The vertical flight space is generally sufficient, and the flight cap is necessary for balancing reasons. Once you have the feel of the maps, you will almost never accidentally stall out in the flight ceiling. For reference, it's possible to start a split-s from about midway up out of the 800m or so of vertical flight space on most maps.
Those adv. flight maneuvers are great, but a lot of the time they cause you lose sight of whoever you're pursuing. Considering it takes about 3/4 of a second of accurate cannon fire to disable a Jet (a disabled jet is almost a death sentence), it's usually not worth breaking visual contact for a possibly better position.
Also, the planes do not seem much faster going in a dive than when flying level. I think they are capped at about 420(km/hr?), which you can reach with afterburners whether you are climbing, diving or going level(not sure about this). I think the SU-25 and A-10 can go about 385 max.
I personally don't have the 3-d awareness to consistently/precisely predict how things will end up after I pull off a maneuver, which is ok for defending but not so much for attacking. I think it's more worthwhile work on your aim/leading skills.
On the defense, I usually try to turn into my attacker's direction if I can, so that the engagement basically resets. Anything that keeps you out of alignment with a chaser and reduces the time that your broad side is exposed will help you stay alive longer.
Also, against RL logic, I fly some what low (below 450m) much of the time. You have much better field of view above the plane, and aircraft show up more easily in relief against the sky. You can also take advantage of below radar(once it works), and terrain when closer to the ground. I don't think there is any real disadvantage from attacking from below in this game.
Anyways, fancy maneuvers mean little in the face of the air radar. The air radar is basically the ultimate crutch for dogfights. It's super easy to just stick on someone's tail with the radar, as dogfighting is mostly a contest of awareness. The jets are not particularly good at accelerating, or tightly maneuvering. So 99% of the time, it comes down to who can get behind the other guy first. The air radar can't really show maneuvers like an immelman that result in a quick change of heading, but it's not a big problem if you keep enough breathing room to keep track of the guy, and only close in for a certain kill/disable.
"He who see's first, lives." ;p I kinda figured maneuvers would come out below both awareness and gunmanship in BF3, but figured I'd post anyway just in case something there was useful.
I can also see why going low would work better in game. In fact I doubt it really matters all that much since you can probably hit the afterburners and zoom up to the flight ceiling pretty quickly anyway.
Missiles are definitely the easy button of dogfighting. At least they make you track your target. heh I remember playing EF2000 years back and being able to lock on and fire at enemies over a kilometer away that weren't even in front of me. Missile just curves around and heads after them. I felt very lazy. ;3