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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 21, 2011 16:24:50 GMT -5
We all have the spreadsheet, but I think it's hard to look at it and immediately discern exactly how the shotguns fare over distance and versus each other. For this, I used total damage, that is, the damage of all the pellets combined. This runs into some artifacts due to rounding errors, but is overall a good approximation of overall damage. For example, if a one shotgun fires 1 pellet that does 99.9 damage and another fires 2 pellets at 50 damage, both shotguns will appear to have the same damage when the second one is clearly superior, all else equal. If I have time later, I'll convert the graph to percent pellets needed to kill or something. This shows all shotguns with both extended mags and Damage. Notably, this setup results in an insane 210% increase in total damage. There is the rounding error to be aware of, but, overall, gosh darn golly gee whiz. The 1887 obviously doesn't have extended mags. The USAS overlaps with the Striker before damage drop off. This graph makes exceedingly apparent that the Striker doo-doos all over every other shotgun in the game (ignoring hip spread, which is relatively constant between shotguns). Before drop off, the Striker does a third less damage than the strongest shotgun, the Spas, but has nearly six times the fire rate. Also, I find the AA12 in the corner there pretty funny. This also points out that the 1887 is the best stock manual action shotgun as it does more damage than the Spas at every range. Here they are with no attachments or proficiencies: KSG is not shown, but the previous graph shows that the Spas similarly completely outclasses it. Finally, for doo-doos and giggles, here's the Striker with extended mags, Damage, and Range (via Specialist) versus the MW2 Spas with Stopping Power: Not bad! However, comparing the MW2 Spas to the MW3 variant is pretty depressing. Even with a 1.5 multiplier due to extended mags, the MW3 Spas can't compete with a secondary weapon from a previous game. Conclusions/TL;DR: -The Striker is the best shotgun in this game and, frankly, wouldn't have been too bad even in MW2, where shotguns were overall much more powerful. -The 1887 is the best stock manual action shotgun. -The Spas is the best manual action when using the best setup. It is probably the second best shotgun when using said setup. -The KSG is complete trash: the Spas and, arguably, the 1887 outclass it. -The USAS is also complete trash as the Striker soundly outclasses it. -Hahahahaha, the AA12.
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acidsnow
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Post by acidsnow on Nov 21, 2011 16:27:09 GMT -5
Thanks qwerty, I've been wanting to do this myself since day one; being a big fan of the shotties... Numbers just weren't working for my anti-math mind.
I've used the majority of the shotties a whole lot, and from my XP I'd say the Striker is the best in practice. The rest suffer from slow fire-time, or low damage (requiring a follow up shot that simply isn't acceptable in the time frame).
In my XP I'd rate the shotguns in order of most combat effective: best Striker 1887 KSG AA-12 SPAS worst USAS
...I've been a big shotgun user in ever CoD game, and depending on the proficiencies you use - the shotties can def bring the pain.
EDIT: what do EMags have to do with anything here?
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 21, 2011 16:35:14 GMT -5
Extended mags increase pellet count by 50%.
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acidsnow
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Post by acidsnow on Nov 21, 2011 16:43:50 GMT -5
Extended mags increase pellet count by 50%. WTF really? Wow, that's totally game-changing info right there
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Post by ArrrhImAPirate on Nov 21, 2011 16:45:24 GMT -5
Extended mags increase pellet count by 50%. What. This is incredible. I was just about to give up using the Spas.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 21, 2011 17:07:51 GMT -5
In my XP I'd rate the shotguns in order of most combat effective: Striker 1887 KSGAA-12 SPASUSAS The Spas does more damage than the KSG at all ranges, has greater range, and has a very slightly higher fire rate, assuming same configuration. Those extra 4 (or 6) shells aren't worth it.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 21, 2011 17:47:39 GMT -5
Dont worry about leveling the shotguns.
Even with range/ext. mags they are still completely outclassed by non-RF smgs. [And even moreso with RF]
I just wasted about 2 hrs leveling the striker. Thought it was a beast at first [with both dmg+ext] but then I realized the only reason it felt good was because its not a complete turd like the base shotty.
Switch to an SMG and have your jaw drop at how shitty that thing was.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 21, 2011 17:51:16 GMT -5
Yeah. Even the best shotgun in this game would have been a piss poor primary in MW2.
They need to buff every shotgun, even the Striker. God damn it, the KSG and Spas should be something to fear!
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Post by rainbows on Nov 21, 2011 18:00:27 GMT -5
I think you give the AA12 too little credit. It's a bit different from the other shotguns, and far from the best, but it's hardly awful. It's a lot like having FMG9s, except in your primary slot instead of being overpowered by being a backup weapon. It won't kill in one hit, but it WILL completely shred anything within short range in a short order, and it's impossible to fail-miss with.
Also, regarding shotgun power levels, they are perfectly fine in MW3 (with exmags + damage, of course). EVERYTHING has a reduced power level thanks to the lack of stopping power, with the exception of the retarded akimbo MPs. LMGs are no longer infinite range 2HK, burst rifles are no longer 1 burst kills 100% of the time, there is no burst rifle with smg movement as a sidearm (m93r), no automatic assault rifles kill in 2 hits. Buffing the shotguns close to MW2 levels just because they're a primary now would be silly.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 21, 2011 18:13:47 GMT -5
It's 13% faster than the Striker, true, but it's also 33% weaker and has far worse range. Much more importantly, however, the AA12 is the only shotgun that requires Scavenger if you want to actually get a streak with it. It's true that the difference between the Striker's and the AA12's damages are very similar before damage falloff, assuming you use the maximum fire rate of the Striker, but the AA12's drop off kicks in very quickly and the Striker immediately begins to dominate once that happens. I will concede that the AA12 is quite capable at point blank, but that is a very competitive niche (akimbo FMGs, knife, SMG RF, etc.) and the gun is exceedingly weak once damage drop off begins. The strategy guide suggests using Range and not Damage is better for the AA12, which I can very well see as it receives the lowest benefit from using Damage versus every other shotgun, but the fact still remains that it is the least versatile shotgun by merit of forcing you to use Scavenger and highly suggesting that you use Specialist (to gain SoH and ExCon). Buffing the shotguns close to MW2 levels just because they're a primary now would be silly. I'll play with the shotguns (using extended mags and Damage) more, but I will say (and sure many will agree with me) that the stock guns are just utterly depressing and incredibly frustrating to use. At the very least, IW could reduce the bonus granted by Range, Damage, and extended mags and just buff the base guns so that said guns do the same damage with those proficiencies, but so that the stock guns don't suck so much.
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Post by randomguy987 on Nov 21, 2011 18:56:24 GMT -5
That graph actually makes the USAS look like a viable alternative to the Striker: damage drops-off a bit faster, but you get more total range. It doesn't LOOK completely dominated (as with SPAS > KSG), anyhow. Setting aside the awful ammo capacity and reload times, am I missing some other crippling weakness of the USAS?
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Post by seph on Nov 21, 2011 18:57:12 GMT -5
I don't suppose that you can double the amount of pellets fired from a masterkey by also taking extended mags, huh ;P?
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 21, 2011 19:07:32 GMT -5
Setting aside the awful ammo capacity and reload times, am I missing some other crippling weakness of the USAS? The low fire rate. The USAS is supposed to be the 1014 analogue in this game, but it only has half the RPM of its predecessor (as well as severely truncated damage). The Striker has over twice the fire rate in comparison, in addition to its other advantages. Also, regarding shotgun power levels, they are perfectly fine in MW3 (with exmags + damage, of course). EVERYTHING has a reduced power level thanks to the lack of stopping power, with the exception of the retarded akimbo MPs. It is true that the removal of Stopping Power weakened weapons, but this only applies to a certain class of them. For example, the M4 in this game is a 3-5 kill. In MW2, it was a 3-4 kill with SP and a 4-5 kill without. Consequently, its new damage isn't necessarily worse than its old damage as it represents a compromise between its two old possible damage models. Most of the SMGs also use a similar compromise. As an example of a class that was buffed by the removal of Stopping Power, see sniper rifles. Shotguns, however, are now weaker than their previous incarnations without Stopping Power (with the exception of the Striker, hence its present dominance) and this is my key problem with this class. As I previously mentioned, the other weapon classes (besides LMGs) were either straight up buffed (snipers) or received a compromise of buffs and nerfs (SMGs and ARs) due to the removal and selective reapplication of Stopping Power. Shotguns, meanwhile, are definitively worse off in this game, especially when you consider the new perk options (i.e. no Lightweight and no Marathon) and that they now require you to forgo some other primary weapon. In typing this, I just realized that a very good counter-argument to all this is that MW3 features much more cramped maps with greater focus on CQC all around. Consequently, even if shotguns had the same stats as they did in MW2, they would be buffed by merit of being more suited to the maps and I don't have much to say in the way of this.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 21, 2011 19:09:44 GMT -5
Thanks for putting this together, megaqwerty. I took a look myself at the data. I think the raw damage output of the gun is perhaps less important than what percentage of the pellets need to hit to kill (I am certainly open to debate on this). I put together a graph showing this (shows data for Damage + Extended Mags): The Striker, KSG, and USAS overlap at 33% for the first 300 units. The lines continue past 100% but I cut them to make the graph more viewable. The SPAS needs the smallest percentage of pellets to hit up to 600 units, after which the Model 1887 is really the only option of any of the guns to kill anyone. I suppose the choice with those two is whether you want the higher chance of 1 shot kills, or if you trust your accuracy and prefer the range. Comparing the USAS and the Striker, the Striker needs 4/9 pellets to hit at 350 and 400 units to the USAS' 3, but can kill at 600 units. Past that, neither are doing any killing, while other ranges closer they have the same percentages. Frankly, I don't think that the pellet difference between 300 and 400 range compensates for the Striker's spam-ability. Please let me know any feedback, or if you would like me to put together this graph for any other combination of attachments and proficiencies.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 21, 2011 19:15:11 GMT -5
Nice! I was thinking of doing the same thing later today so you saved me some effort, thanks! I, too, think that pellet percent is much, much better way of showing shotgun strength.
I can put your graph in the first post if you want me to.
My only suggestion would be to make the colors for the Striker, USAS, and KSG more distinct as right now it takes quite a bit of effort to distinguish between them.
And, good God, this makes it so apparent that the KSG is one terrible gun.
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Post by rainbows on Nov 21, 2011 19:15:20 GMT -5
I don't know if range is all that on the AA12. It's completely useless before dropoff, and damage is useful both at very close ranges and during dropoff, not to mention being a 40% boost vs. a 25% boost. In my experience with it damage has definitely felt like it was doing more than range.
I wouldn't mind seeing a graph of exmags + range vs. exmags + damage for various shotguns (but especially the AA12) just to see the exact differences.
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acidsnow
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Post by acidsnow on Nov 21, 2011 20:17:23 GMT -5
The Spas does more damage than the KSG at all ranges, has greater range, and has a very slightly higher fire rate, assuming same configuration. Incorrect, the KSG has 6 pellets deals 15dmg at long range, whereas the SPAS has 8 pellets and deals 5dmg. And FYI, the range advantage of the SPAS is about as far as the distance of a Claymore kill AoE, which is pretty small IMO.Even with range/ext. mags they are still completely outclassed by non-RF smgs. [And even moreso with RF] I agree that [some] SMGs are "better" than the shotties at close range, but overall, the Shotties dominate within their respective ranges. Since this topic has been posted, I maxed both the Striker & the KSG - WOW, just WOW, talk about going 25 and 7 on Seatown = completeownage. With each shotty using EMags, the Striker using Damage, and the KSG using Range I was able to DOMINATE 4 games in a row as top player in TDM!I will say (and sure many will agree with me) that the stock guns are just utterly depressing and incredibly frustrating to use. Raises hand, though some are able to hold their ground decently (KSG, 1887).That graph actually makes the USAS look like a viable alternative to the Striker. The USAS is IMO the absolute worst shotty, but if you use the range proficiency + EMags it might be worth a siht (a bonus would be to use Steady Aim [though I doubt it's needed]).this makes it so apparent that the KSG is one terrible gun. Despite what the graph "looks like", the KSG is [in my XP] one of the top 2 or 3 shotties. ...Don't dismiss it before you try raping with it. It fires faster than the SPAS-12, and it has a higher long distance damage [15, as opposed to 5 against the SPAS], and you'll never need to reload it
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 21, 2011 20:49:18 GMT -5
The Spas does more damage than the KSG at all ranges, has greater range, and has a very slightly higher fire rate, assuming same configuration. Those extra 4 (or 6) shells aren't worth it. Incorrect, the KSG does 15 at long range, whereas the SPAS deals 5. And FYI, the range advantage of the SPAS is about as far as the distance of a Claymore kill AoE, which is pretty small IMO.I was considering overall pellet damage. Pellet percent needed for a kill is a more accurate way to evaluate damage, but even thehawkny reveals only a very small range where the KSG does more damage than the Spas (about 600-625).
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acidsnow
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Post by acidsnow on Nov 21, 2011 21:01:18 GMT -5
Pellet percent needed for a kill is a more accurate way to evaluate damage, but even thehawkny reveals only a very small range where the KSG does more damage than the Spas (about 600-625). True, but everything else aside (proficiencies/attachments/perks), the KSG has a faster attack speed: thus a faster attackspeed + a higher minimum damage = totally trumps any range advantage of the SPAS!
Simply said: a stock-KSG out preforms a stock-SPAS.
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Post by drift0r on Nov 21, 2011 21:34:50 GMT -5
Extended mags increase pellet count by 50%. Did I accidentally eat the special brownies or did you guys say that adding extended mags increases the pellet count by 50%. As in, a normaly Spas would have 8 pellets per shot, but with extended mags it has 12 pellets per shot!?
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 21, 2011 21:43:49 GMT -5
True, but everything else aside (proficiencies/attachments/perks), the KSG has a faster attack speed: thus a faster attackspeed + a higher minimum damage = totally trumps any range advantage of the SPAS! Does the KSG have a greater RPM? The spreadsheet notes that no one knows the actual value, but that the KSG's RPM is most probably slightly less than the Spas'. The KSG's RPM is estimated to be about 60 whereas the Spas is around 65. Did I accidentally eat the special brownies or did you guys say that adding extended mags increases the pellet count by 50%. As in, a normaly Spas would have 8 pellets per shot, but with extended mags it has 12 pellets per shot!? Yep. Extended mags does a lot to make the shotguns not suck.
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Post by sh58 on Nov 22, 2011 7:55:28 GMT -5
i don't get the logic of developers.
what universe would you decrease the power of a gun whilst placing it as a primary rather than a secondary
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Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 22, 2011 12:04:21 GMT -5
I don't know if range is all that on the AA12. It's completely useless before dropoff, and damage is useful both at very close ranges and during dropoff, not to mention being a 40% boost vs. a 25% boost. In my experience with it damage has definitely felt like it was doing more than range. I wouldn't mind seeing a graph of exmags + range vs. exmags + damage for various shotguns (but especially the AA12) just to see the exact differences. I'll put that together when I have the chance. Have we established what Range does? Does it extend both the damage drop off beginning and end by 25%?
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 22, 2011 15:52:43 GMT -5
Have we established what Range does? Does it extend both the damage drop off beginning and end by 25%? That's what I did in my graph.
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kilo
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Post by kilo on Nov 22, 2011 17:50:36 GMT -5
An important thing to consider is 8 pellet guns will have lower standard deviation in damage which is a big plus. additionally, ex mags increases damage by 50% and decreases standard deviation of damage per shot.
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Post by rainbows on Nov 22, 2011 18:23:16 GMT -5
In the universe where they were overpowered, and where almost everything else has been weakened too.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 22, 2011 20:10:06 GMT -5
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Post by drift0r on Nov 22, 2011 20:56:10 GMT -5
These graphs seem to generally indicate that Range + Extended mags is the better attachment. However, there is one thing you are forgetting about.
What if somebody was running Specialist, and they got up to 8 kills thus unlocking Range as well as a host of other proficiencies for their shotgun. Say this person started out with the Damage proficiency and extended mags. After 8 kills they would have Damage, Range, and Extended mags going on. How do the shotguns stack up with all of these enabled?
Also, I test the undermount shotgun against an undermount shotgun where the weapon it was mounted to also had extended mags. It did not give the undermount additional pellets.
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Post by rainbows on Nov 22, 2011 21:13:56 GMT -5
This seems like a horrible interpretation of the graphs. Damage is clearly better on the 8 (12) pellet guns like the AA12 and SPAS-12, and is pretty close with Range on the 6 (9) pellet guns like the Striker.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 22, 2011 22:10:59 GMT -5
These graphs seem to generally indicate that Range + Extended mags is the better attachment. I agree with rainbows that the graphs do not suggest this at all. For every shotgun save the AA12, Range only begins to do more damage at around 550-600, depending on the shotgun. At those ranges, the shotguns are extremely weak anyway (especially the pumps) and you're very unlikely to obtain the kill without first closing in some of the distance, thus losing Range's sole advantage over Damage. Let's take the Striker. The Striker is better off with Damage from 0 to 600 units. Range is only better in the 600-750 range. However, in that range, the percent of pellets need to kill is extremely high and the high spread means you will need many, many shots to ensure death. With a shotgun you should be engaging your enemies prior to the point that Range has advantages over Damage.
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