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Post by jabberwockxeno on Dec 4, 2011 21:17:56 GMT -5
Now that we have the stats, how do the guns need to be balenced, you think?
In accordance with my own idea that ideal weapon balence is where every weapon should be more or less equally usable/effective withen their class's range:
m240: needs a slight ROF boost, only by 20-25 RPM. Very slight recoil reduction as well, only by .05 - .1 vertically, .1-.15 in each direction horizontally
M60: needs a even smaller recoil reduction than the m240
ak74/74u/rpk74: needs a very slight damage boost (only 1 - 2 points) to make them useful compared to m416/m16/m4/iar, as they (ak's) have the same damage as the m16's, but less rof and more recoil/slower reload. (Since weapon damage is based on round fired, not on a per weapon basis)
A-91: needs a very slight damage reduction to balence it with other carbines
SVD: needs something to balence it with mk11, as mk11 is the same in every way, but with a faster reload.
m39: techinally, it should be balenced like the svd, but I would rather it be balenced to be the US version of the sks.
Update:
m240: needs very very slight recoil increase. ------------------------------------------- M60: Very slight recoil reduction as well, only by .03 - .07 vertically, .05-.1 in each direction horizontally (based on denkirson's charts, not gonna link it just in case, it's easy to find though). A small damage boost (2 points or so) would be in order, if possible for it only to affect the m60 ------------------------------------------- Type 88: needs a small damage boost (if possible without afected other weapons) ------------------------------------------- ak74/74u/rpk74: needs a very slight damage boost (only 1 - 2 points) to make them useful compared to m416/m16/m4/iar, as they (ak's) have the same damage as the m16's, but less rof and more recoil/slower reload, making the ak's statiscally infeiror to the m16's in every way. (Since weapon damage is based on round fired, not on a per weapon basis)
At the same time, the ak-74m need a slight recoil boost, or else it then becomes better than the m416 in every way other than reload speed. ------------------------------------------- A-91: needs a very slight damage reduction to balence it with other carbines, as of now, many carbines are statiscally inferior in every way because of this weapon. (if possible without afected other weapons) ------------------------------------------- SVD: needs something to balence it with mk11, as mk11 is the same in every way, but with a faster reload. ------------------------------------------- m39: techinally, it should be balenced like the svd, but I would rather it be balenced to be the US version of the sks. ------------------------------------------- 870: needs a slightly slower pump between shots. ------------------------------------------- Other shotguns: All need to be balenced so no shotgun is worse or the same in every way compared to another. Not sure how to go about this. ------------------------------------------- G36c and SG553: Need to be balenced with other smg's, in the same class as the aks74u is as of now in that it's outclassed in nearly every aspect by other carbines. Not sure how to go about it.
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neverlast74
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Post by neverlast74 on Dec 5, 2011 5:40:38 GMT -5
I agree, that right now there is alot of conformism in the weapon balancing. I agree with the AK changes - that this would create a special niche for them.
More important would be that these Foxtrotting MAV recon spybots should'nt kill anyone but maybe do 20 damage per collision - so you have a real fight. I have seen Metro maps with 3 of these canister flying around.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Dec 5, 2011 6:37:23 GMT -5
M60/M240: Boost close range damage back to 34 from 30
F2000: Higher spread build up on automatic fire, small bit of extra recoil
AEK-971: Small bit of extra horizontal recoil
AN-94: Patch says it's gonna do exactly this: make 2-burst fire more like real life, so extremely rapid fire so that both bullets pretty much hit the same point
MP7/P90: Patch is going to give them more range. Another suggestion is to slightly ramp up their damage to something like 18,5: currently, they're a 6 shot kill to the chest and a 7 shot kill to the limbs. This would mean they'd stay 6 shot kills. A tiny buff.
All shotguns: Buck -buckshot pellet count increased to 14 (from 12) -Slight decrease of spread to semi-auto shotguns and the USAS. Another idea would be to have less pellets than the 870, but a spread just as tight -Longer range before damage fall-off
-Flechette; maybe a small increase in damage in line with the buckshot buff (haven't used flechette alot)
-Slugs: Perhaps slightly more maximum damage range, but not much
-Frags: nothing after patch
And I agree with making the M39 an sks-clone. It's pretty useless to have 3 identical rifles in the same class.
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Post by doctorbrain on Dec 5, 2011 9:55:07 GMT -5
These weapons are somewhat underpowered an probably need a buff: 1. AN-94. Absolutely worst assault rifle; hopefully the fix to its burst fire will make it useable. As it stands, massive accuracy penalties for sustained fire means everyone avoids it. 2. SG553. No reason to use this; its outclassed by every other carbine: low ROF, high recoil, low muzzle velocity. Probably needs a buff to accuracy, maybe reload time. As it stands, both of the starter carbines have better performance. 3. M60E4. Compared to other LMGs, the M60 has a low ROF, low muzzle velocity, manageable recoil but high first-shot-multiplier. 4. SKS. Doesn't have terrible damage output but rapid accuracy degradation and low ROF make it impractical. All shotguns: Buck -buckshot pellet count increased to 14 (from 12) -Slight decrease of spread to semi-auto shotguns and the USAS. Another idea would be to have less pellets than the 870, but a spread just as tight -Longer range before damage fall-off -Flechette; maybe a small increase in damage in line with the buckshot buff (haven't used flechette alot) -Slugs: Perhaps slightly more maximum damage range, but not much And I agree with making the M39 an sks-clone. It's pretty useless to have 3 identical rifles in the same class. Can't say I agree with the shotgun buffs, since as it stands right now the shotguns have pretty decent range and stopping power. I'd say either slightly nerf their range or leave them as-is (with the exception of frag rounds, which are in serious need of a nerf). I do agree with changing the M39 into an SKS clone though.
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sleep
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Post by sleep on Dec 5, 2011 11:33:55 GMT -5
agree with the above. the SG553 is largely ignored, it seems to be without a single redeeming quality.
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Post by fatsix on Dec 5, 2011 13:09:31 GMT -5
Recon: I miss my m24. I'd like to see the SKS get a ROF increase to 500, and loose some of its aiming penalties. Make it a short range battle rifle. Clone the m39 damage, velocity, and mag size to the SKS. Give the SVD 5 more rounds to accommodate the longer reload time.
Handguns: Its not a tactical until it has a suppressor AND flashlight, i want this option.
Assaults: They kill me the most, so nerf all their guns.
Mav spybots shout be 1 bullet to kill. Nothing worse then playing a good team with 2 mav spotters and 2 mortar teams.
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Post by rudybojangles on Dec 5, 2011 13:30:05 GMT -5
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Post by jabberwockxeno on Dec 5, 2011 16:03:36 GMT -5
M60/M240: Boost close range damage back to 34 from 30 F2000: Higher spread build up on automatic fire, small bit of extra recoil AEK-971: Small bit of extra horizontal recoil AN-94: Patch says it's gonna do exactly this: make 2-burst fire more like real life, so extremely rapid fire so that both bullets pretty much hit the same point MP7/P90: Patch is going to give them more range. Another suggestion is to slightly ramp up their damage to something like 18,5: currently, they're a 6 shot kill to the chest and a 7 shot kill to the limbs. This would mean they'd stay 6 shot kills. A tiny buff. All shotguns: Buck -buckshot pellet count increased to 14 (from 12) -Slight decrease of spread to semi-auto shotguns and the USAS. Another idea would be to have less pellets than the 870, but a spread just as tight -Longer range before damage fall-off -Flechette; maybe a small increase in damage in line with the buckshot buff (haven't used flechette alot) -Slugs: Perhaps slightly more maximum damage range, but not much -Frags: nothing after patch And I agree with making the M39 an sks-clone. It's pretty useless to have 3 identical rifles in the same class. I don't think the damage on the m60/m240 should/can be buffed. Damage is the only thing the pkp has going for it, giving the other two a damage boost would make the m240 better in every way to both. And since weapon damage is done by round fired, not by gun, it would effect other weapons. These weapons are somewhat underpowered an probably need a buff: 1. AN-94. Absolutely worst assault rifle; hopefully the fix to its burst fire will make it useable. As it stands, massive accuracy penalties for sustained fire means everyone avoids it. 2. SG553. No reason to use this; its outclassed by every other carbine: low ROF, high recoil, low muzzle velocity. Probably needs a buff to accuracy, maybe reload time. As it stands, both of the starter carbines have better performance. 3. M60E4. Compared to other LMGs, the M60 has a low ROF, low muzzle velocity, manageable recoil but high first-shot-multiplier. 4. SKS. Doesn't have terrible damage output but rapid accuracy degradation and low ROF make it impractical. All shotguns: Buck -buckshot pellet count increased to 14 (from 12) -Slight decrease of spread to semi-auto shotguns and the USAS. Another idea would be to have less pellets than the 870, but a spread just as tight -Longer range before damage fall-off -Flechette; maybe a small increase in damage in line with the buckshot buff (haven't used flechette alot) -Slugs: Perhaps slightly more maximum damage range, but not much And I agree with making the M39 an sks-clone. It's pretty useless to have 3 identical rifles in the same class. Can't say I agree with the shotgun buffs, since as it stands right now the shotguns have pretty decent range and stopping power. I'd say either slightly nerf their range or leave them as-is (with the exception of frag rounds, which are in serious need of a nerf). I do agree with changing the M39 into an SKS clone though. Trust me when i say the sks needs no buff. Just rapid tap the trigger 3 - 4 times BAM BAM BAM. Dead. I love it, but even i'd feel cheap then. ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- I agree that the shotties need major balencing, but I'm not sure how to do it. Right now, the 870 has the best damage due to the lower inherent spread, but the ROF is too high to balance it with other shotties. The solution there is of course to make the pump time a little bit longer. But I'm cluesless with all the others. ------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- Also, please suggest these to the battlelog weapon balence threads.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Dec 5, 2011 17:02:45 GMT -5
Shotguns a range nerf? Can I get whatever you are smoking?
They're so pointlessly inaccurate that not only their range is terrible, but they don't require a need for aiming so they're not even fun to use anymore. And shotguns are my favorite weapon in pretty much any game. ANY.
And that thing about round power isn't entirely true. The SCAR-H does 30-17 damage (so less minimum damage) yet it's still the same round. It's entirely possible
What the PKP has going for it is that it's the medium between the M240 and M60, but it s a superior weapon to the m60 right now thanks to higher close range damage.
@ Rudy: Your chart looks balanced, but I think I prefer a higher damage model, maybe even higher then the one we have now
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Post by jabberwockxeno on Dec 5, 2011 17:35:35 GMT -5
Handguns: Its not a tactical until it has a suppressor AND flashlight, i want this option. Nah, that'd be tacticool.
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Post by jabberwockxeno on Dec 5, 2011 17:40:57 GMT -5
Shotguns a range nerf? Can I get whatever you are smoking? They're so pointlessly inaccurate that not only their range is terrible, but they don't require a need for aiming so they're not even fun to use anymore. And shotguns are my favorite weapon in pretty much any game. ANY. And that thing about round power isn't entirely true. The SCAR-H does 30-17 damage (so less minimum damage) yet it's still the same round. It's entirely possible What the PKP has going for it is that it's the medium between the M240 and M60, but it s a superior weapon to the m60 right now thanks to higher close range damage. @ Rudy: Your chart looks balanced, but I think I prefer a higher damage model, maybe even higher then the one we have now When did I say I wanted their range reduced? All I said is that the 870 is a bit overpowered compared to the others. Anyways: PKP: Highest damage +++, mid ROF ++, worst recoil + = 6 M240: mid damage++, highest ROF+++, mid recoil++ = 7 M60: mid damage++, lowest rof+, lowest recoil+++ = 6 So I guess if anything, the m240 needs a nerf. Also, see: Very good point - I hadn't noticed that thread. Thanks for the link. We can see here that there are only 4 values for 762x51mm NATO: 762x51mmNATO, 762x51mmNATO_Carbine, 762x51mmNATO_Bolt, and 762x51mmNATO_Semi. From the damage values for each, it's obvious that _Bolt and _Semi are the bolt-action and semi-auto snipers, respectively. _Carbine is obviously for the SCAR-H - changes to this would not affect other weapons (as there are no other 762x51mm carbines). However, the remaining value - 762x51mmNATO - seems to be shared between the G3A3, the M240B and the M60E4. This would mean that a nerf to the damage of the G3A3 would also affect the damage for the M240B and M60E4.
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Post by fatsix on Dec 5, 2011 19:42:18 GMT -5
The pump Shorty takes skill. It should be way better than the others. Why should you be rewarded for holding the trigger down? I still don't see how I shoot people in the chest, deal zero damage and I die. Brings back memories of mw2.
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Post by fatsix on Dec 5, 2011 19:45:14 GMT -5
Handguns: Its not a tactical until it has a suppressor AND flashlight, i want this option. Nah, that'd be tacticool. I thought these guns were based on their real life counterparts? My USP 45 tactical has a light and threaded barrel for a suppressor. Why should state laws effect my in game gun selection. Hehehhehe
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battleaxerx
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Post by battleaxerx on Dec 5, 2011 20:18:58 GMT -5
I think the AEK needs more vertical recoil. The grip is already the obvious choice for it. To increase horizontal recoil is just like nerfing the FAMAS in blops by making it take longer to ADS when SoH Pro is already the most used perk on it. People didn't and shouldn't have used the other options, the tweak just didn't do much cuz SoH made the tweak negligible...
AEK needs to kick up more.
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Post by bel on Dec 5, 2011 21:48:06 GMT -5
I think the AEK needs more vertical recoil. The grip is already the obvious choice for it. To increase horizontal recoil is just like nerfing the FAMAS in blops by making it take longer to ADS when SoH Pro is already the most used perk on it. People didn't and shouldn't have used the other options, the tweak just didn't do much cuz SoH made the tweak negligible... That in itself is wrong, though. SoH didn't make the tweak negligible, it forced people who were stupid enough to run something other than SoH pro to remedy that. Players who were already using FAMAS+SoH absolutely felt it, and it also put you at a situational disadvantage against players running SoH pro on faster guns. Nerfs can't just be "negated" like that, because either way it costs something. Either the freedom of choosing a different perk over SoH pro, or the speed if you already were. Regardless, the whole gun balance discussion is perhaps a little moot right now. There's a huge patch coming, and it includes changes like: ...which we can't judge the effectiveness of. We should wait and see what DICE is doing before we wander off into dreamland again.
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battleaxerx
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Post by battleaxerx on Dec 5, 2011 22:39:39 GMT -5
If the grip is the best thing for the AEK are you going to "nerf" the AEK so that the grip is now the super best thing for the AEK? You can do that and say it isn't negligible cuz it made a small difference, but it didn't really change anything as far as customization, your other options for that gun are now even worse off...
I guess if you want to hit the AEK's horizontal you should REALLY just take the grip out of its options.
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Post by rudybojangles on Dec 6, 2011 10:04:59 GMT -5
@ Rudy: Your chart looks balanced, but I think I prefer a higher damage model, maybe even higher then the one we have now The thing with higher damage is that the closer you get to 3 bullet kills, or 5 at range, the harder to balance things that have a wide spectrum of ROF. I've given up hope on DICE balance. I have resigned myself to using whatever is the flavor of the moment (AEK is nice). Here is what I typically use in each kit: Assault: AEK Engineer: M4A1, A-91 if very close range map Support: Used to use M240, now I use PKP Recon: M39 Pistol: M93R/G18 All-kit: AS VAL (if I had it unlocked )
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Post by jabberwockxeno on Dec 7, 2011 15:30:06 GMT -5
I think the AEK needs more vertical recoil. The grip is already the obvious choice for it. To increase horizontal recoil is just like nerfing the FAMAS in blops by making it take longer to ADS when SoH Pro is already the most used perk on it. People didn't and shouldn't have used the other options, the tweak just didn't do much cuz SoH made the tweak negligible... That in itself is wrong, though. SoH didn't make the tweak negligible, it forced people who were stupid enough to run something other than SoH pro to remedy that. Players who were already using FAMAS+SoH absolutely felt it, and it also put you at a situational disadvantage against players running SoH pro on faster guns. Nerfs can't just be "negated" like that, because either way it costs something. Either the freedom of choosing a different perk over SoH pro, or the speed if you already were. Regardless, the whole gun balance discussion is perhaps a little moot right now. There's a huge patch coming, and it includes changes like: ...which we can't judge the effectiveness of. We should wait and see what DICE is doing before we wander off into dreamland again. However, we now have the stats from said patch on symthic's charts. I updated my suggestions to reflect this and upon looking at the stats closer: m240: needs very very slight recoil increase. ------------------------------------------- M60: Very slight recoil reduction as well, only by .03 - .07 vertically, .05-.1 in each direction horizontally (based on denkirson's charts, not gonna link it just in case, it's easy to find though). A small damage boost (2 points or so) would be in order, if possible for it only to affect the m60 ------------------------------------------- Type 88: needs a small damage boost (if possible without afected other weapons) ------------------------------------------- ak74/74u/rpk74: needs a very slight damage boost (only 1 - 2 points) to make them useful compared to m416/m16/m4/iar, as they (ak's) have the same damage as the m16's, but less rof and more recoil/slower reload, making the ak's statiscally infeiror to the m16's in every way. (Since weapon damage is based on round fired, not on a per weapon basis) At the same time, the ak-74m need a slight recoil boost, or else it then becomes better than the m416 in every way other than reload speed. ------------------------------------------- A-91: needs a very slight damage reduction to balence it with other carbines, as of now, many carbines are statiscally inferior in every way because of this weapon. (if possible without afected other weapons) ------------------------------------------- SVD: needs something to balence it with mk11, as mk11 is the same in every way, but with a faster reload. ------------------------------------------- m39: techinally, it should be balenced like the svd, but I would rather it be balenced to be the US version of the sks. ------------------------------------------- 870: needs a slightly slower pump between shots. ------------------------------------------- Other shotguns: All need to be balenced so no shotgun is worse or the same in every way compared to another. Not sure how to go about this. ------------------------------------------- G36c and SG553: Need to be balenced with other smg's, in the same class as the aks74u is as of now in that it's outclassed in nearly every aspect by other carbines. Not sure how to go about it.
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Post by jabberwockxeno on Dec 7, 2011 16:22:06 GMT -5
The pump Shorty takes skill. It should be way better than the others. Why should you be rewarded for holding the trigger down? I still don't see how I shoot people in the chest, deal zero damage and I die. Brings back memories of mw2. I fail to see how "pull the trigger .05 seconds slower with better damage and spread" equates to more skill. Hell, i'd even argue that the usas, which is the ONLY one that you can hold the trigger down for, takes more skill, as most people would do just that, not time their shots, which are less effective than that of he 870s. Regardless, "skill" does not matter when it comes to balence. A gun that sucks to 95% of the population but can be use effectively by 5% of it who are "skilled" is not a balenced weapon, nor is the opposite. A weapon is balenced when it is overall, across every sencario, just as good or nearly so as every other gun in it's class.
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Post by SheWolf on Dec 7, 2011 16:22:59 GMT -5
isn't the A-91 inferior to the M4 in every way?
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sleep
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Post by sleep on Dec 7, 2011 16:31:24 GMT -5
no.
a-91 vs m4 = same rate of fire = same damage / range + better hip spread - slower reload - slower bullet velocity
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Post by fazzmania on Dec 7, 2011 16:46:37 GMT -5
If the grip is the best thing for the AEK are you going to "nerf" the AEK so that the grip is now the super best thing for the AEK? You can do that and say it isn't negligible cuz it made a small difference, but it didn't really change anything as far as customization, your other options for that gun are now even worse off... I guess if you want to hit the AEK's horizontal you should REALLY just take the grip out of its options. The grip is the best attachment on any AR/Carbine/PDW. This is irrefutable.
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Post by sushicake on Dec 7, 2011 16:49:56 GMT -5
isn't the A-91 inferior to the M4 in every way? No way. If anything I'd say it's better. They have the same stats but the A-91 has lower recoil and better hip spread. The slower reload hasn't screwed me over while playing and the muzzle velocity is negligible IMO.
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sleep
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Post by sleep on Dec 7, 2011 16:59:29 GMT -5
i agree that muzzle velocity is a minor factor but it is worth mentioning. personally i think the A-91 is about equal to the m4a1, certainly better if you expect a lot of CQC and hip firing.
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Post by azrael1911 on Dec 15, 2011 22:31:07 GMT -5
I agree, that right now there is alot of conformism in the weapon balancing. I agree with the AK changes - that this would create a special niche for them. More important would be that these Foxtrotting MAV recon spybots should'nt kill anyone but maybe do 20 damage per collision - so you have a real fight. I have seen Metro maps with 3 of these canister flying around. you understand those MAVs in real life are insanely heavy right? And that anything that gets close to those suction spinners get TORN apart, if anything, running people over with them would be easier in real life
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Post by SheWolf on Dec 16, 2011 5:02:51 GMT -5
I agree, that right now there is alot of conformism in the weapon balancing. I agree with the AK changes - that this would create a special niche for them. More important would be that these Foxtrotting MAV recon spybots should'nt kill anyone but maybe do 20 damage per collision - so you have a real fight. I have seen Metro maps with 3 of these canister flying around. you understand those MAVs in real life are insanely heavy right? And that anything that gets close to those suction spinners get TORN apart, if anything, running people over with them would be easier in real life i could live with that, if, as in real life, this would render the MAV inoperable after the first time you do it.. however, i don't get killed by MAVs ever, pretty much. once or twice so far. maybe it's a console thing, because you can't spin arround quickly and accurately enough with gamepads to shoot that bugger down when you hear it behind you. but it doesn't seem to be much a problem on pc.
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Post by raxcoswell on Dec 16, 2011 9:28:26 GMT -5
shotguns: 'skill' is kind of a loaded term, but the 870 definitely has more risk, so it should have more reward. If the rofs/damage were all balanced out, rof wins every time. It should be slightly better than the semi/automatics.
Mavs: I play console and never been killed with one. But maybe it is a console thing, surely that stuff is easier to control on a pad
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Post by kirbyderby on Dec 16, 2011 12:51:18 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure you're right rax; 88 MAV kills and counting on console. Besides the thing turning slower than the Titanic, it's pretty easy to fly. Also, people aren't very good at shooting your little ball of death for some reason.
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Post by natsuterran on Dec 16, 2011 12:59:24 GMT -5
I play on both and the MAV has never been an issue for me on console. There are only 12 players so you can usually spare a few seconds to shoot the MAV without worrying about anyone running up on you while doing so. I haven't really been ravaged by MAV's on PC, but I have done the ravaging a little. The only time it is really an issue is on Metro 64 players. All I do is fly the bot as fast as possible, picking up momentum past their front lines. I then make it soar up outside into their spawn and wait a few seconds. After a bit, anyone who watched me fly it past them tends to forget because there's a million people spamming grenades and bullets up and down the halls. So then I bring the MAV back around, pick up more momentum and plow into the 20 guys standing in a line exchanging cover fire, netting like 4-5 kills each time. I sit on an ammo box and just keep sending them out. They can never kill me because I have a front line of 31 players standing in their way. It's definitely more viable on PC.
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