|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 8, 2011 15:57:19 GMT -5
Hope this helps. Enjoy and discuss. Statistical Analysis: Domination "Speed vs Distance"Introduction. MW3 and especially the game mode ‘Domination’, can truly be a game of inches when competing. The hard part though, for most players, is understanding just how to define 'inches' during the game-play. How far is that inch? What does it mean getting to the ‘B’ flag two seconds earlier? How fast do I move? How far are those distances on the gun charts? How much faster does an smg’er go versus an assault rifle player? MW3 leaves a lot of these questions kind of vague, leaving players with just hunches and feelings when playing the game. In the ‘Domination’ game mode, speed and distance are crucial elements to game-play. Being the first player to a flag, at the beginning, knowing exactly where the enemy will be in relation to you, can be the difference maker. You capping that first flag, will create that 20 to 25pt swing that can determine who wins and who loses. In this article, we will actually break down all the above. Give players exact figures. Show players how far away those neutral ‘B’ flags are. Not only show which spawning side has the advantage, but show exactly how much of an advantage, and game strategies to deal with it. Nothing will be left to guesswork. Part I. - Understanding MW3 Distance. MW3 is vague on how to measure distance in the game. If one looks at the gun charts in the guides, setting aside many of the stats are wrong, they will see an arbitrary unit of measure (we'll call 'u') which ranges from 400u to 700u on shotguns, to 1,600u to 2,000u on Assault rifles. What is ‘u’? How far is 'u'? How many feet is 'u'? Who the f*ck knows!!! To try and answer, it is mostly an IW in-game statistical measure, that has no real life equivalent. It means really nothing. So this brings the question we all want to know, just how does one convert this ‘u’ measurement to something meaningful we can relate to? The solution. There is a way to convert this ‘u’ to something more tangible. MW3 offers up the XM25 Grenade Launcher. The XM25 has scoped measuring device on it that measures distance to the target, and does so in 'meters' (m). This something we are familiar with. So how do we convert ‘u’ to meters? This is a bit tricky, but we can get some close approximates using the XM25. Below is a picture showing the players view through the scope. One can see the target marked, and in the circled portion, the distance indicated, ’30 meters’. So how do we convert the chart measurements measured by ‘u’, convert them to meters? This is tricky. One technique is to use bullet damage. How many bullets are needed to kill from the gun charts. In the picture below, we give the perspective of the shooter, looking out at the opponent using the MK14. Using our knowledge that the MK14 needs 3 bullets to kill over the range of 1,950u, and only two under 1,950....we can run repeated tests, use the XM, and find out just how many meters 1,950u is. What we find is a measurement of 47 meters. At 46 meters, the MK kills with two bullets. Move the target back to 48 meters and two do not kill, we need three. So 47.5 meters ~ 1,950u. Below is a picture, from the players perspective, showing what it looks like to spot an enemy at 47.5m/1,950u. Using the Type95, we repeated the above process and tried to find out just how far away 1,600u is. We know the T95 only needs one burst (3 bullets) to kill under/within the 1,600u range. Over 1,600u, one burst does not kill. So we tested things multiple times, used the XM25 to mark off distance, to find how many meters is 1,600u. We found that distance to be around 37 meters. In the picture below, this is what 37 meters/1,600u looks like. At 36 meters, three bullets kill the enemy (one burst) At 38 meters, the Type95 does NOT kill with one burst (3 bullets). So 37 meters is the magic number. ( For comparison’s sake, the wall behind the player, off in the distance, is exactly 60 meters away. The equivalent of about 2,550u on the gun charts.) Conclusion? While some further testing could be done on this, it would appear that approximately 1 meter is equal to about 41u to 42u. 1m = 41.5u 60.0 meters ~ 2,550u 47.5 meters ~ 1,950u 37.0 meters ~ 1,600u 24 meters ~ 1,000u 12 meters ~ 500u So 1,000u on the gun charts, would be around 24 to 25 meters on the game field. 500u would be around 11 to 12 meters. Keep these numbers in mind as we move on the next sections. Part II. - Understanding MW3 speed and travel times.With our above methodology, we can now determine just how fast a player travels when moving around a map. Using the same sight-lines from our test on the map ‘ Mission’, we can use the XM25 to map out an easy to travel distance. We created a 60 meter course to run, as seen below. Now we can simply test various classes moving across the above distance and time them. We double-check the in-game multiples and see if the relationships hold up. We test normal moving speeds, sprinting speeds, and then test with the conditioning perk too. We do this for the Assault Rifle Class, SMG class, and LMG class. What can we find? We can find out just how many meters the above classes travel each second. Find a ‘ meters per second’ (m/s) speed measurement. Now we have a unit of comparison. We get the results seen in the chart below, and for good measure, added in world champion sprinter Usain Bolt, to help put things into even better perspective. Surprisingly, the speed times in the game are not half bad, in terms of realism. As far as multiples, the SMG class moves the fastest. The AR class, moves about 90% of the speed. LMG class, moves about 80% of the SMG. As can be seen, everything holds true. Part III – Using Distance and Speed in Domination.Everything above is all well and good, but we still don't have enough perspective. We know which class is fastest, how much faster than others, but how does the speed and distance fit into actual game-play on the maps? To start, let's first answer this. Just how big is a typical Call of Duty, MW3 Map? We’ll look at the map ' Resistance'. We are going to use our tools to approximate what type of size these maps have, in real world terms. We find that Resistance measures approximately 115.5m x 105m. That works out to 378’ x 344’, 130,032 square feet. In real world terms, Resistance’s playing area is about three plus acres in size. Having good units of measurements helps us move on to the next part of our analysis, putting our info to good use in the Domination game-mode. Determining just who has the advantage on the starting spawns, and just how much of an advantage. In Domination, each map has a starting spawn location, close to a flag. There is one neutral flag, away from both teams, that is usually hotly contested at first. This is usually the ‘B’ flag. The team that controls a majority of the flags, usually ‘B’, wins the game. So to break this down, just how far is it to a typical 'B' flag, using our newfound measuring tools. The distance varies per map, but on average, a typical 'B' flag will be anywhere from as short as 35 meters away (from the starting spawn) to the longest at 102 meters. Let's look at the Map of 'Resistance' again, this time mapping out the course teams take in getting to the 'B' flag, upon the start of the game. Below are the typical routes taken to B. The C side having to travel 72.99 meters. The A side, traveling 78.65 meters. Please see the following post, for the rest of the article.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 8, 2011 16:11:31 GMT -5
....part two --------------------- Part IV – MW3 Domination Maps. Using our in-game measuring tools, we can break down every MW3 Domination map. We can measure out the distance from the starting spawns to the neutral ‘B’ flag. We can also determine how long it takes a sprinting AR class person to get there. Or how long a sprinting SMG’er takes. When we put it all together, we get a chart that looks like this: Let’s take a look at how to read the above chart. We’ll use map #5, “Downturn”. for an example. Reading across the line, we can see it is exactly 56.27 meters from the A opening spawn to the B flag. It’s exactly 61.71 meters from the C opening spawn to the B flag. The A-side has a shorter distance to travel, by 5.44 meters. That’s distance, so how about time? Reading across, we can see how long it will take various types of classes to get to ‘B’. We see a sprinting SMG’er gets to B in 9.16 seconds (from A). We go further across, and see times for the C spawn side. We can see an AR class person, he’ll reach the flag in 11.22 seconds. Simply compare the spread to see the advantage or disadvantage one has. In this case, the A-side SMG’er, he’ll be the first to the flag by 2.06 seconds (11.22-9.16) The last column, 'AR vs AR', is simply a column giving a quick look, showing things if everyone is equal, using the same class. All things equal, a sprinting AR person versus another sprinting AR person. In our example, it shows the A-side reaching B first, by 0.99 seconds. That would be a good approximate overall time to use when comparing maps. Please note. There are things to keep in mind when reading the above chart. These are average times. When a team starts off at the beginning spawn, people are placed in a group, some in front of the other. Times can be a few tenths of a second off, depending on your pole position at start. Also, these times racing to B, they assume a nice, clean, unobstructed sprint. That means no getting hung up on objects. That also means no shoulder-bumping teammates on the way to the B flag. These things tend to add time to your B flag run. All in all, realistically speaking, if the chart says 11.22 seconds to the flag, reality is, your time will most likely be another 0.50 to 1.00 seconds longer. Part V – Using the ChartLet's look at the chart in more detail again. What first jumps out is that while some maps are sort of close to being balanced, some maps are just flat out horribly unfair. As can be seen by the map ‘Outpost', it is just a train wreck of unfairness. The C-side opening spawn has to travel an additional 40.15 meters to B. That’s about 7.3 seconds of extra traveling time for those guys. Three A-side spawners can get to B, sit on it for 3.33 seconds, cap it, and then still have a cushion of almost 4 seconds before the C-side guys even get there. Or, viewed in another way, B will capped and the C-side people will still be a whopping 22 meters away!!!! The above brings up question. Visually, during game-play, just what does a 22 meters look like? I cap 'B', and the enemy is 22 meters, 4+ seconds away, what will that look like? Let's use an example to illustrate this situation. Let's break it down and use the map of Resistance. Example - 'Resistance' The set-up. Each side sends one guy to the flag. C-Side Starter - The C-side Spawner elects to use an SMG class to sprint to B. He also puts on the Conditioning perk. Looking at the chart, we can see he will hit the B flag in approximately in 10.81 seconds. A-Side Starter- The A-side Spawner elects to use an Assault Rifle class, so he'll be moving slower. He sprints towards B and he will get there in 14.30 seconds. Result? The above is a gap of 3.49 seconds. We also know the A-side player's speed is 5.50 m/s, so he's going to be 19.2 meters away still (5.5 x 3.49) That's a great number to know, but what every player will ask....is what does 19.2 meters look like visually, at that B flag. Here’s the visual representation below. As can be seen above, the C-side person (blue guy) reaches B and is behind the screen, aiming down the sights. The A-side spawner is still in the process of sprinting to B. He is still about 19.2 meters from the B flag zone. As seen, this puts him still not even in shooting/melee range yet. This is going to be a huge mismatch. A train wreck. 3.49 seconds is almost insurmountable.. [/i] Next up is the same above example, just looking at things from the typical FPS perspective. The Blue Guy's sight-line as he jumps on B, looking out beyond the barrier, waiting for the opponents to come to to the flag (Note the XM25 measuring off the distance of 21 meters to the parked van off in the distance) Look closely at the distance, again, the opponent in this example, he hasn’t even turned the corner yet!. Not even visible. That’s how much of an advantage 3.49 seconds is. Here's the pic. As both the pictures above show, seconds can be a lifetime in Domination. Now let's change a few of the variables in our example. We are going to show what happens if the A-side person switches classes. He moves to a fast, smg class. Now that he's moving faster, he can get to B in 12.81 seconds, rather than 14.30 seconds. Moving 1.5 seconds faster, moves him about 9.2 meters closer to the flag. So... how do things look now for the A-side player? You can see below. While the odds are still against him (the c-side player still beats him there by 2 seconds.) he at least has a chance now. He's 9 meters closer, and that makes a world of difference. He can now shoot back as the A-side player just reaches B. Just switching classes, to the SMG class, makes a world of difference. Here's the picture: Now we are going to summarize all we have learned from the charts. Below is a picture giving a time scale that also gives distance. It shows the blue soldier just hitting the B-flag 'zone' (which triggers the cap). It's approximately 2.8 meters across to the other side of the cap zone. Moving out, one can see just how far away distance wise, and time wise, the enemies would be as they make their approach. Use this to help yourself get some perspective when using the charts. To give an idea of 'where' the opponent will be, when say (for example) they are 10 meters/ 2seconds away. This can also put things into better perspective, when choosing your weapons. If the enemy just turns the corner, at 16m away....can you one hit kill him with a shotgun? Using our earlier conversion tool, that's approximately 662u away. Can you? We'll discuss that in a later post. Here's the diagram..... Part VI – Conclusion and closing thoughts.The most useful tip with this information is simply learning these numbers, and then recognizing what map you are playing on. Be aware of what your advantage or disadvantage is on each opening spawn, and adjust your strategy accordingly. Some examples of what I am saying: - If you are on a map where the opponent holds a slight advantage (1 to 2 seconds to B), be aware of that. Recognize that you can't just bullrush the B flag, he will be there first. So adjust. Think ahead of time, during the 10 seconds of pre-game loading. Perhaps have a sprinter smg class pre-made, that has the Conditioning perk on it. Doing so, you can make a one second disadvantage, into a 1.5 second advantage, tilting the odds completely to you. - Learn and recognize how time vs distance works in MW3. Be cognizant of the just how much a 2.0 second disadvantage is, or any time for that matter. Knowing what 1, 2, 3, or more seconds means...allows you to game-plan your first move. Where you will shoot, where the enemy will be. If needed, maybe even have a perk/gun on that allows a faster ADS. - Learn which maps you are screwed on. If you consistently start on the C side of ' Outpost', remember to just forget about trying to bum-rush B. It ain't going to happen. They will get it first. Adjust and plan accordingly. Maybe you try their A flag instead? Or circle around and come in behind on B? Either is better than front attacking a group that already capped B, and are waiting. Be smart. Above are just a few game-planning strategies. There are probably well over a hundred, seeing how there are 16 maps, two sides to each. Learning to utilize speed with gun/grenade/flash combos. And again, these are all important if playing to win. The opening move can set the tone in a game of Domination. Play your cards right, get the first two flags.....you demoralize the opponents. Enjoy and discuss!!!!
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Dec 8, 2011 16:20:32 GMT -5
Thanks, this is fantastic, and very useful. Definitely appreciate such a thorough write-up. I do not play much Domination, but I found the distance measurement examples very interesting, as I have not really seen them illustrated elsewhere. Keep up the good work!
|
|
Shakerag
True Bro
Unapologetic Tube User
Posts: 10,204
|
Post by Shakerag on Dec 8, 2011 16:20:48 GMT -5
Fascinating read. Thank you for compiling this! I might add that your presentation is excellent as well. I might have to give Dom more attention instead of just playing TDM all the time now.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 8, 2011 16:47:09 GMT -5
I personally think Domination is the best game mode to play. I have pretty much only being playing it since MW1. Dabble in some others, but probably 95% of my game time is Dom.
Here are a few reasons why.
1. Domination favors the 'team player', who plays to win, versus the guy who fusses about his KD ratio or plays for kills. Especially so in MW3. Why? While the KD whore is working his kills.....you can very quickly, using the knowledge in this post, pick up two very quick point scores capping flags at the beginning of every game. Bonus!!! Caps count for points, which aid Killstreaks!. I will often put on Hardline, cap the first two flags, get two kills on 'b'....and 'bingo'....I already have a Predator lined up. Get a kill or two with that, and I'm already stacking towards a 7, 9 or 11 killstreak. The KD whore? He avoided the flags and now has to work harder to make up for the two points I got with the flags.
2. Domination is the best game, in terms of balancing 'Attack vs Defend'. You get the lead, you defend. You are behind, you have to attack. Very few games allow momentum swings like this, where a player has to learn how to attack and defend, multiple times during one game. That teaches people to play better. You learn how to attack points, and defend. You won't get that in TDM.
3. Domination has the most consistent spawn points in CoD games. If your team positions itself correctly, controls two flags, does not reach to far, ....you can be 100% certain where your enemies will be. No annoying issues of people spawning behind you. The winner will be determined by tactics and gameplay, not unlucky spawns.
|
|
|
Post by volgon on Dec 8, 2011 18:01:34 GMT -5
The reason I like Dom so much is that you have to keep moving if you want to win. Flags are constantly in flux meaning if a team is trying to win they'll have to move between them. TDM and KC just feel sooo slow to me. It's like half the teams I play against just crouch walk while ADS'd or don't ever sprint.
I started playing Team Defender not long ago and it's quickly become one of my favorite game modes. It's hard to get streaks going and the spawns are absolute crap (don't try to flank a flag since the other team will just spawn behind you and beeline to the flag, mowing you down while your back is turned) but for most part it's a blast to play.
|
|
|
Post by drakealdan on Dec 8, 2011 18:44:28 GMT -5
Good post. I really like the visualization of time to distance. Funny, though, that we're not talking about playing with randoms, where I can spawn on A side in Resistance, run straight to B, and take it all by myself. XD What we find is a measurement of 47 meters. At 46 meters, the MK kills with two bullets. Move the target back to 48 meters and two do not kill, we need three. So 47.5 meters ~ 1,950u. Below is a picture, from the players perspective, showing what it looks like to spot an enemy at 47.5m/1,950u. I could really use just pictures like this showing the effective range of guns. So far I've just been feeling it out by using the M4A1 (since the dropoff gets laughable at distance). I think it turns out that... the game has a lot of corners, but at the same time, there are long lines of sight- they just tend to be narrow and tight.
|
|
|
Post by randomguy987 on Dec 8, 2011 21:18:37 GMT -5
@op: That was very nicely done. Magisterial even. If this board had karma, you would be +'d.
And I'm going to be totally "University of Chicago seminar paper presentation what what" [i.e., WAAAY worse than a traditional what what] right now, but IF (a big "if") and when you feel like maybe doing an elaboration on this already-very-useful project, you might want to look at "time from spawn to overwatch on 'B'"[for "B" read: "most-contested flag" -- sometimes it's actually A or C].
For example: While it may take longer to get from A to B on Resistance, I'm willing to bet (because I've done it at the start of every match when I spawn A-side) that it's faster to run from A to that little shop and shoot the C-spawners trying to cap B. After which, you're ahead on your killstreak and can cap B with a bit of a head start (before the revenge killers and people who stayed to cap C get there).
But: the C-spawners have an even-closer-to-spawn overwatch on B flag by that elevated balcony looking down @ B. If someone takes that and watches the A-side shop, then the point above is largely moot and C side has the advantage again.
I suppose my point is this: perhaps the best metric of advantage in Dom games isn't time-to-"B"-flag, but time-to-position-that-overwatches-"B"-flag.
Again, just some musings re the metagame not intended to take away from the truly excellent thought you've already put into this.
Edit: Oh, god bless Den's filters.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 9, 2011 8:27:24 GMT -5
@op: That was very nicely done. Magisterial even. If this board had karma, you would be +'d. For example: While it may take longer to get from A to B on Resistance, I'm willing to bet (because I've done it at the start of every match when I spawn A-side) that it's faster to run from A to that little shop and shoot the C-spawners trying to cap B. After which, you're ahead on your killstreak and can cap B with a bit of a head start (before the revenge killers and people who stayed to cap C get there). But: the C-spawners have an even-closer-to-spawn overwatch on B flag by that elevated balcony looking down @ B. If someone takes that and watches the A-side shop, then the point above is largely moot and C side has the advantage again. I suppose my point is this: perhaps the best metric of advantage in Dom games isn't time-to--flag, but time-to-position-that-overwatches-flag. Again, just some musings re the metagame not intended to take away from the truly excellent thought you've already put into this. Good post and you raise some good points.........sometimes it is very valuable to get to the guarding/shooting spot near 'B', rather than actually capping B. Here is the problem with your point, which you already address. On just about every Domination map.....each side will pretty much always have a 'guarding' spot some distance away. Like you said with ' Resistance', ...the A-side has a short travel to the shop windows to guard B...but....C-side ALSO has a short trip to the balcony overlooking B. Each side's guarding point offsets each other. So measuring ..."TIME to GUARDING SPOT"....will become a bit of an exercise in futility, just more or less repeating the results I found in the above chart. I'm going to guess, that what one will find is that the same general theme still holds. If the A-side is better on Downfall, it's still going to be the better side when measuring to the guarding spots, by a similar proportion. One other point on the above. Trying to determine what is the best 'guarding spot' is a bit nebulous. One man's best, is another man's average. You might think one point is great to guard from, I might think another point, 4 meters off to the side, is much better. It's to hard to quantify into real numbers. At least with measuring the 'B flag', there is no debate with the position. MW3 shows you exactly when you hit it.
|
|
wwaa
True Bro
PC / PS4 / X1
Posts: 2,086
|
Post by wwaa on Dec 9, 2011 9:59:18 GMT -5
wow, great, many thanx iw5000!!
just printed that table.
|
|
wwaa
True Bro
PC / PS4 / X1
Posts: 2,086
|
Post by wwaa on Dec 9, 2011 10:31:10 GMT -5
I personally think Domination is the best game mode to play. I have pretty much only being playing it since MW1. Dabble in some others, but probably 95% of my game time is Dom. Here are a few reasons why. 1. Domination favors the 'team player', who plays to win, versus the guy who fusses about his KD ratio or plays for kills. Especially so in MW3. 2. Domination is the best game, in terms of balancing 'Attack vs Defend'. 3. Domination has the most consistent spawn points in CoD games. I agree, in MW3 I play Dom almost exclusively, I would add: 4. Dom is the best game to learn new maps. You can patiently explore the flag area learning the lines of sight and help the team defending that flag in the meantime, so you play the objective. 5. Dom is the best game for newbs - their k:d 1:20 won’t make teammates angry, they won’t hear: ”soldier! you‘re the last one! complete the mission”, no need to plant/defuse in Dem, no need to run after teammates, etc etc. I suppose my point is this: perhaps the best metric of advantage in Dom games isn't time-to-"B"-flag, but time-to-position-that-overwatches-"B"-flag. I always suppose I’ll have to kill 1-2 enemies to complete capturing the neutral flag. Overwatching neutral flag when game starts is risky - attacker ‘ll shoot you first and then capture - he’s a moving target and you a sitting duck and he knows where you could camp. (you might expect 2xstun and a nice killcam - he runs and knows when to throw, you do not).
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 9, 2011 10:44:51 GMT -5
NOTE....
I updated part two of the article, putting in one more diagram, that I had forgot to post. It's towards the end, and definitely worth a quick look.
thanks
|
|
fred
True Bro
I gotta a job but it ain't doin this.
Posts: 10,153
|
Post by fred on Dec 11, 2011 1:20:29 GMT -5
iw5000This is great stuff and helps plan opening strategies for Dom either to establish a double cap early or to try to push the other team out of the strong spawn. I'm printing this out for future reference. I do have some questions: What does the AR/SMG + CP mean? They are 10% faster than the base AR/SMG figures but I don't understand. Also I measured a full SMG sprint (using Extreme Con) as 7.1 meter per second on a 49 meter "track" on Bootleg which is close to your SMG+CP figures. What I noticed during these tests is that even with full rest I could only sprint about 57-8 meters continuously with an SMG (8 meters past the finish line) or 24 steps. After that I could only about 1/2 sprint and 1/2 run which nets at only about 1.25 normal speed. Did you factor that in somehow as an average? Here is my post on MW3 movement speeds just in case you hadn't seen it: denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=3453&page=1
|
|
|
Post by volgon on Dec 11, 2011 3:11:02 GMT -5
CP = (Extreme) Conditioning Pro
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 11, 2011 10:10:49 GMT -5
iw5000This is great stuff and helps plan opening strategies for Dom either to establish a double cap early or to try to push the other team out of the strong spawn. I'm printing this out for future reference. I do have some questions: What does the AR/SMG + CP mean? They are 10% faster than the base AR/SMG figures but I don't understand. Assault Rifle is AR.....SMG is small machine gun, like the UMP, ppm and others. From the stats, and my testing, the smg class travels a bit faster than the base AR class. About 10% faster.CP is the Conditioning Perk. It allows people to spring further, thereby allowing them to travel at a faster rate. Yeah, that is relatively the same figure.....6.75 to 7.10. Close enough. Here's why this is a slight difference in our tests. As you stated, even with CP pro on, you will have a rest/pause during a person's sprint., before one can start up again. So depending on how a person accounts for this pause, length of test track, one could get slight variations in testing times. You tested on a shorter track, 49m.. I tested on a 60m track. My test had the 'pause' in it, it didn't have full 100% sprint going on the whole time (only maybe around 85% of the time)....so therefore, my speeds are going to be slightly slower. I wanted my speed tests to include this 'pause', because when I person sprints to the B flag, oftentimes the flag will be further away than 49 meters. For my tests, I attempted to try and make sure that the method i used...was a consistent measurement on all my tests. That is stayed the same, so everything could be relative. Nice post. Well done. Good read.
|
|
fred
True Bro
I gotta a job but it ain't doin this.
Posts: 10,153
|
Post by fred on Dec 11, 2011 14:47:35 GMT -5
Do you think the BLOPS maps in domination mode are fairer and more balanced? The maps certainly seemed more symmetrical to me and in their domination setups mostly diagonal linear (Jungle,Cracked); with some straight linear (Drive-In) A-B-C flags and triangular setups (Nuketown, WMD, Hangar 18). I haven't played Dom yet in MW3 but I am imagining is harder to cap than in BLOPS which makes your post even more important. Get that initial 2 cap and hold on.
In BLOPS I used to run TI + Smoke + Flak and this enabled me to cap (and defend) literally by myself when my doo-doo teammates were off playing TDM. I assume this OP setup is now negated by TI/Smoke being in same slot and thermal seeing through the smoke?
I ask b/c I play mercenary most of the time; in BLOPS domination my basic starting strategy is bum rush "B" at the start of the match with FLAK-LW-TI-Smoke after telling my teamates what I am doing. If I see some following I will immediately smoke "B" and try to cap prone. If possible I will drop my TI along the way or immediately after the cap; after which I stick on "B" like fucking VD, usually in structure with overwatch on both flags if possible. When the spawn flips b/c of stupid rushers I'm still in position.
I know you play very successfully in a full party, but what would you recommend in terms of class setups for a merc dom player? Would this work for both cap & defend? EC or BE/Overkill/Stalker or SA Wep1: Riot & Speed (.88 speed) Wep2: LMG with Attachments(Thermal&Grip) (.8 speed) C4 + TI Support UAV/CUAVorBV. Switch to BE soon after beginning of the match.
Also what class setups do you use in your full party? Do you guys specialize? I assume everyone in your party got full headphone setup? If so do you use brevity codes?
|
|
|
Post by volgon on Dec 11, 2011 16:53:56 GMT -5
As a solo player you want to be as versatile as possible. I find that, because 95% of the randoms on your team are awful, you have to essentially do everything yourself. That means you'll have to move around the map, cap/defend, AND kill while your team mates are feeding points to the other team. I'd say the best all-around Dom class is:
MP7 Extended Mags Stinger (Or another secondary, but Stinger will allow you to take out most lethal support that might otherwise keep you from moving) Bouncing Betty/C4/Semtex + Tac Insert/Smoke (your choice, some are better for defending and some for attacking)
ExCon or SoH + Assassin + SA (Or whatever T3 perk you prefer) Support with UAV/Ballistic Vests (no third)
With this setup, you have a gun that can fire at all ranges effectively (and also gives you full speed which is very important), plenty of ammo, potentially a launcher to take out enemy lethal support, the ability to react to flag assaults quickly in ExCon, and the advantage of being able to spam ballistic vests (which are great for flag diving).
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 12, 2011 10:43:37 GMT -5
Do you think the BLOPS maps in domination mode are fairer and more balanced? The maps certainly seemed more symmetrical to me and in their domination setups mostly diagonal linear (Jungle,Cracked); with some straight linear (Drive-In) A-B-C flags and triangular setups (Nuketown, WMD, Hangar 18). I haven't played Dom yet in MW3 but I am imagining is harder to cap than in BLOPS which makes your post even more important. Get that initial 2 cap and hold on. Good question. I have nothing in numbers to base this on, but overall, there's not THAT much of a difference IMHO. At first I thought MW3's maps were a bit more fluid, maze'ish, less 'spawn-trapable' than Blops....but now after playing close to 700 games of domination, that's simply not the case. Same sh*t, different maps. What I am seeing is the maps mostly all work the same way. The tactics that worked before, all work again. As far as if the Dom maps MW3 are shaped differently? You are 100% correct in your analysis, that there are different types of dom maps. You are right, you have the more traditional rectangular maps, the more circular maps, diagonal linear, etc..A lot of people don't get that. .I'm not sure what proportion of MW3's maps are split with the above, compared to other games. All in all, it feels about the same. Again, MW3 maps are playing the same way. Lock two flags, then there are usually only three routes for the enemy to escape. Maybe four if you press to far. The one difference I do think i see...is that MW3's maps do have a bit less verticality in them.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 12, 2011 11:06:05 GMT -5
Broke your post up, the questions, into different parts. I ask b/c I play mercenary most of the time; in BLOPS domination my basic starting strategy is bum rush B at the start of the match with FLAK-LW-TI-Smoke after telling my teamates what I am doing. If I see some following I will immediately smoke B and try to cap prone. If possible I will drop my TI along the way or immediately after the cap; after which I stick on B; like Foxtrotting VD, usually in structure with overwatch on both flags if possible. When the spawn flips b/c of stupid rushers I'm still in position. Yep. What you did, was the straight up, 100% most effective starting strategy one could use. Drop the TI along the way, for the 2nd quick re-attempt if you die....toss smoke ahead of B, to ward off long distance shooters on the flag...and then cap, using Flak to fend off nades. Go prone and shoot those coming out of the smoke, while they are smoked up. There was no other viable option in Blops. None whatsoever. The only way to beat the above was with numbers (having more people doing it), or having a huge distance adv/disadv built into the maps (which is the point of this thread) Playing mercenary? Ughh. That's so frustrating. If I had too (and i hope i never do).....I would go with a multiple class set-up. For the start, go with a high rof gun, smg, TI and flash. Use Conditioning with Blast Shield. Sprint to B, flash it, go prone and take your chances. Use the chart. The above will work most of the time. Then when you die, switch to another pre-made class. I would use a class that has a longer range rifle (Type95, rapid fire), with SMAW as your secondary, with Semtex. Drop a TI in a spot where you can get verticality on one flag, and be a short jog to the other. Example...the ledge between A and B at Arkaden. When you see multiple enemies come at the flag, use the launcher or nade to hit them. Finish off with the gun. Don't use high killstreaks. It may feel enticing to do so, and the lure is there, thinking the Chopper Gunner or AC130 might wreck the other team...and it would, but usually by the time you get it, you are 50+pts behind, and it's to late. Go with with lower streaks, ones that don't pull you off the board to shoot. UAV, maybe an IMS to cover your butt, then maybe an AH at nine tops. One tip is this. Try this one. Use a rng/overkill class. Switch over during the game....Conditioning, Overkill, whatever....use smg/Type95, and then with your perks.....use only ONE perk...UAV. Turn off everything else. Everytime you get three kills, you get one. Better yet, even switch off to a Hardline. Now....every time you get two kills in a row, you get UAV. You can literally put up 8 to 10 UAV's in one game all by yourself. Again...the trick is, with no other killstreaks picked (just UAV), you can 'reset' your streaks after two/three. Get two kills, get a UAV. Use it. Get another two kills...another UAV, use it. Make sense? Here's the big problem at the end of the day, there are no gun setup classes or solutions that can overcome inept, bonehead teammates, who are running around trying to puff up their KD's or get kills. You get one ahole running into the enemy spawn, 'bang'...the spawn get flipped and no amount of good positioning can fix it. IMHO, even the best 'solo' player, trying to win solo in Domination, can only reasonably, maybe, win 3 to 4 out of five games. Basically a 3.0 to 4.0 WL ratio.....and then it will come at the expense of your KD...as a guy running around trying to cap flags, cover for inept teammates....is a guy running around, exposed and being shot up a lot. And he'll never beat a team of players. Question for you....why play mercenary? Why don't you group up?
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 12, 2011 12:09:10 GMT -5
Also what class setups do you use in your full party? Do you guys specialize? I assume everyone in your party got full headphone setup? If so do you use brevity codes? I'm sure if you talk to ten people, you'll get ten different answers. But i'll give my thoughts. While a headset is a must....required....one doesn't need codes, specializing, etc.. when playing with a group. Especially if you have been with the guys for a while. Some of the guys I run with, been playing since WaW/MW2. Most all with Blops. One is talking like 4,000 domination games, maybe as high as 6,000. That's a lot of games. A lot of time (disturbing when viewed that way). Most of them, i know where they will be without even seeing it in the game. When we play, there are no codes or stuff. Everyone talks, gives each other sh*t, but it's all just calling for help, in short phrases." two guys coming to A"....or ..." camper on the escalator"...... "someone f*cking help me on B, i'm getting pounded", ....stuff like that. Pretty much, a verbal UAV up the entire game on the opponent. But more importantly than talking, here's the key with a good team in Dom. One, don't triple cap at first. Two, once you get two flags, understand 'spacing' At least with who i play with, everyone knows this and randoms always screw this up. If there are three exit points for an enemy (from their spawn), you should have two guys on each. Easy in theory, hard to pull off in practice. That's the key. When you respawn and come back to a spot,....you see a teammate there....one should know to move to the next spot. Go fill it. If you see a gap, stay there. Don't go shoot over someone else's shoulder. On most maps, people i play with, we all tend to have a favorite pre-set 'spots' and for the most part, everyone slides right into them. Almost like set 'plays' are run and executed. It becomes very natural. Throw in some TI use, .no KD whoring, a win is almost guaranteed. With MW3, it was an easy transition. I find the maps the same. Most of us have WL ratios in the teens. Mine is 19.8 or something like that (755-38), with probably 22 of those 38 losses being dashboards....and of the remaining 16 legit losses, most have been in Kill confirmed. Maybe only one or two being actual domination games.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 13, 2011 10:48:13 GMT -5
Quick note.
PLayed a game on interchange last night....and for the first time ever.....our side started on the 'C' side of the map. We were all like ..."WTF x 10", at first not knowing where we were. Seriously, like the prior 45 games, all on the A side....and now first time ever on the C side.
So the question we all asked, is why?
Last night further confirmed my theory. I'm still convinced it's a seeding valuation in the coding. Here is my theory, take the map 'Interchange'. When the game came out, IF you won your first game on that map, you get the same spawn the next game. Win the second, you get the same spawn yet again. You keep getting assigned 'seeding' points. You keep winning, the game rewards you by giving you that same spawn over and over. So you are given a point value for Interchange, for that side. You win 100 out of 100 times.....your ongoing 'score' (with your five teammate's scores) are compared to the other team's average score. Higher score gets the spawn they have been winning on.
That seems to be the only explanation. The higher team definitely does not get the better spawn. I say that, because we all have been winning from day one, ...and on maps like Village, we originally played the first games on the A-side (crap side), and have been stuck on that spawn side ever since, without fail, every single game now.
So because myself, and most of my friends have been winning a lot....we just keep getting the same opening spawns on every map. It would appear....that the only way we would get the other spawn...is if ...1) we start losing on the start-spawn we have been playing ,...or 2) we find another group that has a better record.
Last night's game, our squad played against a team of very high ranked players (entire team was 3rd or higher prestige). Their WL records were very good. Perhaps better than ours on this map....so they got preference. and since they have been starting on A all the time too.....they got that side, their choice, rather than us.
|
|
|
Post by randomguy987 on Dec 13, 2011 15:10:19 GMT -5
iw5000: It would be pretty interesting if there was some who-starts-on-which-side algorithm like you described . . . but I find it difficult to imagine that the same people who designed MW3's shotguns & akimbo machine pistols (then "rebalanced" them in the manner that they did) came up with something that elaborate. You posit an elegant model to explain the empirical facts, but I'm guessing that in reality, IW just forgot to reseed their (P*)RNG. I can think of some pretty "dumb" map-side assignment models that would also explain your experiences (e.g., every player gets a map-specific pseudo-random number X the first time they play a map; thereafter the team with the greatest X amongst its members spawns A-side . . . if you play with the same people all the time, then you'll tend to spawn on the same side on many, perhaps most, maps). *Sorry, the statistician in me can't bring himself to call pseudo-random numbers "random numbers" even on an internet message board about a videogame. Once again, I hope you don't think I'm trolling you. Your post just got me thinking about how bad coding might lead to these outcomes.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 13, 2011 15:20:50 GMT -5
iw5000: It would be pretty interesting if there was some who-starts-on-which-side algorithm like you described . . . but I find it difficult to imagine that the same people who designed MW3's shotguns & akimbo machine pistols (then "rebalanced" them in the manner that they did) came up with something that elaborate. You posit an elegant model to explain the empirical facts, but I'm guessing that in reality, IW just forgot to reseed their (P*)RNG. I can think of some pretty "dumb" map-side assignment models that would also explain your experiences (e.g., every player gets a map-specific pseudo-random number X the first time they play a map; thereafter the team with the greatest X amongst its members spawns A-side . . . if you play with the same people all the time, then you'll tend to spawn on the same side on many, perhaps most, maps). *Sorry, the statistician in me can't bring himself to call pseudo-random numbers "random numbers" even on an internet message board about a videogame. Once again, I hope you don't think I'm trolling you. Your post just got me thinking about how bad coding might lead to these outcomes. No, not at all, good info. I have never seen starting spawns like this in ANY CoD games before. It's a bit ridiculous that whenever I play, i always get the same side, on just about all the 16 maps (except for that one example above). Obviously, it can't be a random thing, that's statistically impossible. Your explanation sounds good.
|
|
|
Post by ElysMustache on Dec 13, 2011 21:30:10 GMT -5
Obviously, it can't be a random thing, that's statistically impossible. Your explanation sounds good. Given a large enough sample size, your experience becomes closer to a statistical certainty than a statistical impossibility. In other words, when things are truly random, someone is bound to have something unlikely occur to them. Flip a coin enough times and you'll hit tails a hundred in a row, eventually. But I'm not saying it's random.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 14, 2011 8:06:51 GMT -5
Obviously, it can't be a random thing, that's statistically impossible. Your explanation sounds good. Given a large enough sample size, your experience becomes closer to a statistical certainty than a statistical impossibility. In other words, when things are truly random, someone is bound to have something unlikely occur to them. Flip a coin enough times and you'll hit tails a hundred in a row, eventually. But I'm not saying it's random. Here's what I mean by statistically impossible. To use your coin example.....me continually getting the same starting spawn point on a particular map, is the equivalent of flipping 'heads' 30 straight times. And when you consider there are 16 maps, with the same results, we are now talking getting 'heads' like 600 straight times. Pretty much, i have played 750 Dom game, and have gotten the same starting spawns like 729 out of 730 times. I'm not even going calculate the odds of trying to flip 'heads' 729 out of 730 times on a coin. There's no chance of it, even a massive sample size, you are not going to get the above unlikely or strange outcome. It's well beyond 1 in a hundred million odds.
|
|
wwaa
True Bro
PC / PS4 / X1
Posts: 2,086
|
Post by wwaa on Dec 14, 2011 8:53:26 GMT -5
You win 100 out of 100 times.....your ongoing 'score' (with your five teammate's scores) are compared to the other team's average score. Higher score gets the spawn they have been winning on. Nice info, thanx. I thought it was totally random … I cannot observe such regularity, playing with randoms I spawn everywhere… Are your starting spawns always the nearest to the neutral flag? Btw: “Fallen” is somehow confusing in public, Players, spawning at B, are happy to cap and defend B as if it was B on Rundown, and run to capture enemy spawn at C instead of neutral A … many many times … Many times I am the only one defending A and the rest is defending B.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 14, 2011 9:48:31 GMT -5
You win 100 out of 100 times.....your ongoing 'score' (with your five teammate's scores) are compared to the other team's average score. Higher score gets the spawn they have been winning on. Nice info, thanx. I thought it was totally random …I cannot observe such regularity, playing with randoms I spawn everywhere… Quick reply here. What I am referring to up there is the STARTING spawns, at the beginning of a domination match. What side of the map you start on. And while I thought my resolution as to 'why' was a good one, someone after me came up with some even better thoughts. He basically thought IW was to lazy to get that detailed, and offered up a more simple explanation....to post his comment: ... "e.g., every player gets a map-specific pseudo-random number X the first time they play a map; thereafter the team with the greatest X amongst its members spawns A-side . . . if you play with the same people all the time, then you'll tend to spawn on the same side on many, perhaps most, maps)." yeah, I put an *(note) next to the fallen map on the spreadsheet. That map is a bit unique. The middle, nuetral Flag is the 'A' flag. As you said, the starting sides are B and C. You are right, some guys might run to C, but that is not the nuetral flag. C will already be capped when they get there, zero chance of capping it first. So the A flag, is the right move to make, at first.
|
|
wwaa
True Bro
PC / PS4 / X1
Posts: 2,086
|
Post by wwaa on Dec 14, 2011 13:02:05 GMT -5
Quick reply here. What I am referring to up there is the STARTING spawns, at the beginning of a domination match. What side of the map you start on. yea, that's what I ment, starting spawns. Are your starting spawns always the nearest to the neutral flag in line with the table you uploaded (Part IV)?
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Dec 14, 2011 13:07:50 GMT -5
No. It's quite varied. On some maps it's the good side (Mission-C) and on others, it's the bad side (Village-A). But with all, the starting spawns i got when i first started playing MW3....are the same ones I am getting today, a month later. As far as I can remember, there has only been one exception to this the other night on Interchange. That's it.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Jan 4, 2012 13:09:41 GMT -5
edited.
|
|