Well it has a serious atmosphere but by know we have random chinese weapons thrown in (I know they're not random because they're in Chinese service or something, but I can't see Russians using Chinese small arms, let alone Americans)
I want a knife with those knuckle handguards. Imaging what cool takedowns you can do with that Or a crowbar Or a gravity gun
Last Edit: Jan 11, 2012 11:08:49 GMT -5 by tiesieman
Post by saddaminsane on Jan 13, 2012 20:45:02 GMT -5
870 in bc2 was pretty useful too
Assault: all assault rifles are good- just don't pretend you're a demi-god with one though, and aiming for the head works exceptionally well
Engineer: G36 ,M4, A91 are all reliable guns. AK74u has a fun-factor to it, but it's kind of slow
Recon: technically, all the semi-auto snipers are excellent if you have the patience and accuracy, while at a safe distance. Take advantage of the terrain, small little holes make for good defensive positions. It's tempting to trigger spam, but it's best to wait for the recoil and fire cap to restart. Bolt actions are excellent for taking out stationary targets and *close range* where it's somewhat easier to aim for the head shots, but if you're not MLG railguns to the face kind of guy, AS VAL makes an awesome PDW, it's so fast you hardly notice the weak shots, and recoil so fine you can fire ~ 10-15 shots before any noticable recoil kicks in. Other PDW like the mp7 are good too, and of course, USAS and 870
Support: Your ammo box gives you complete freedom to spray the low ammo guns like the DOA. Slap on squad supress with frag rounds and all you do it spam. You won't get much kills, but suppression assists are huge. I don't tend to use the LMG's so i wouldn't know, but they are all pretty reliable with the grip and tap-fired. I just pretend it's BC2 as i get minimum spread
Purpose of this post: 1) Provide an overview of each class's tasks and when they are needed 2) Contribute to OP in terms of weapon 'feel' and personal recommendations on a per-weapon basis.
I'M GETTING LIT THE FOXTROT UP! Assault
Overview: One of the front-line killing classes. Deals damage, heals damage, and most importantly, REVIVES TEAMMATES.
Necessity: For an entire team, 5+ are needed. Per squad, having 1 is nice, but not explicitly necessary.
M16A3/A4/M416: The most accurate in terms of recoil. M416 is slightly (read: negligibly) slower but has a better 1st shot recoil multiplier.
AEK-971: Symmetric recoil and superb fire rate. Foregrip is arguably necessary, but is gosh darn golly gee whiz useful; the attachment is likely to be nerfed in the upcoming update in February, allegedly.
FAMAS/F2000: Either you use the FAMAS for hipfire or you dont use either of these weapons. The hipfire spread for these rifles are the same, so use the FAMAS for faster fire rate. Recoil for both guns is bad but better with the foregrip. FAMAS will bounce around on you at range, so either 2-3 shot tapfire or use the 3 round burst function (why i still use it instead of M16A3)
AN-94: Either use it for the 2 round burst recoil/fire rate advantage, or leave it.
KH2002: Didn't like it, but it has a tighter accuracy than the M16A3/4.
G3A3: It's ok. Too slow for my tastes, but it kills in one less round at range than the other weapons.
AK-74M: Statistically inferior to M416. It kills, but you can be doing so much more with later unlocks.
L85A2: I've heard good things about this, but i hate the design and fire rate.
Medkit: Worth giving up the underbarrel attachments (MASS/M320) for 80% of the time.
M320 Frag: Allegedly getting nerfed in the upcoming February patch, but it's kill radius is rediculous, and is extremely user friendly...up to a point where you have to judge distance shots, where the ammo constraints is a problem.
M320 Buck: HAHAHAHAHA WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS (AKA use M320 frag or M26 MASS OR a freaking shotgun primary instead)
M320 Smoke: Heavily nerfed compared to BC2. Not only does it compete with the Medkit, but there isn't a way of resupplying yourself with more rounds without the assistance of a Support's resupply crate.
M26 MASS Buck: If you don't want a shotgun primary and are willing to give up your medkit and NEED a shotgun for CQB, this more or less mimics the 870. Not sure about ADS accuracy, though.
M26 MASS Flechette: Slightly longer kill radius, though the hitmarker chance in cqb is higher. Preference is up to you.
M26 MASS Frag: Just say no. Fire rate is too low.
Defibrillator: Gimmick weapon in terms of attack (I think it does 25-50 damage), but performs the essential task of reviving teammates for a whopping 100 points. If you need to level up Assault, do this for an entire game. You will be loved by your teammates.
I've spotted enemy armor in the AO, over. Engineer
Overview: Take the Assault class's rifles, give them tighter hipfire and slightly worse ADS ability, give them a +1 shot to kill at max range nerf (sans the AKS-74U), and trade healing teammates with healing vehicles...and give them RAWKITLAWNCHAIRS!
Infantry only map necessity: I've split this up because Engineer has a reduced role when on maps (such as OP: Metro) that do not have enemy vehicles. The Engie will do one of two things: resort to using his Carbines for mid-close range assistance, or spam his RPG-7/SMAW to either no/limited effect. Not necessary, but useful. Max 1-2 per squad.
Maps where vehicles exist: Engineers are absolutely necessary and they should compose of at least 1/3rd of the team's members. AT LEAST 1 per squad.
M4/M4A1: Arguably the best carbine. Vertical/Slightly right recoil with the fastest fire rate in the class at 800rpm make unlocking the A1 version for the Russian side completely worth it. M4 has only a 3 round burst. Useful occasionally, but the timing for it is annoying.
AKS74U/SCAR: The SCAR was nerfed slightly too much, while the AKS74U recieved a damage boost at range, both taking 6 shots to kill (mimicking the Assault class's weapons, 1 shot less than other Engie weapons). Otherwise, inferior in recoil and Time-To-Kill to other weapons.
SIG 553/H&K G36C: For whatever reason, the recoil is atrocious on the SIG while the G36C is a laser. Of course, the foregrip mitigates whatever problems either weapon has, but the G36c is superior in every way.
A-91: Arguably of equal tier or marginally worse than the M4s. Has superior hipfire but a bouncy left-right (albeit symmetric) recoil profile. Plays like a mini FAMAS.
H&K G53/QBZ-95B: I haven't been able to play around with either of these weapons.
RPG-7/SMAW: Apperantly identical, but something tells me the RPG-7 is better. The most versatile missile (or in this case, rocket-propelled-grenade) launcher, and the only launcher that can take on infantry. Kill radius vs infantry is ridiculously tiny, though, and panic shooting is not suggested. Aim for walls/ceiling/floor of the enemy, and they'll still live, almost always requires a direct hit to kill. However, vs vehicles, it travels slowly but performs decent enough.
Stinger/IGLA aka the Needle: Fun fact: IGLA translates to Needle. Funny how the Soviets named their anti-air launcher similar to the US's. Anyway, Underpowered, but the only thing that will take out helicopters/jets. On Damavand Peak Rush, I've had trouble taking down one heli because of the pilot ducking under the mountainside base to let itself repair. And that's even without it using flares. Also brings up the annoying loop of: Oh hey, there's a chopper. I dont have Stinger. *respawn* Oh hey, there's a tank. But i have stingers out. *respawn* Oh hey, there's a chopper. I have my RPG out, though. *respawn*
Javelin: Unfortunately alleged to be getting a nerf, it's THE anti-tank launcher, and can lock onto choppers/jets with SOFLAM (so i hear. I recall being able to take out a chopper with it without needing assistance, though). Kills tanks in 1-3 shots, kills choppers in 1-2.
Repair Tool: Gimmick weapon, risky tool, but totally worth it either way as your teammates will need the (occasional) repairs to their vehicles.
EOD bot: Controls like Mach Speed sections in Sonic 2006 (AKA REALLY FOXTROTTING BAD), but is useful because now you dont have to expose yourself to incoming fire just to heal a tank. It can also plant/defuse MCOMs, but most stations are impossible to get the EOD bot there without actually being next to it.
M15 Anti Tank Mine: Infrequently worth giving up repair tool for, such as on maps like Damavand Peak Rush on defense. So long as the enemy drives over it (and not beside), it will usually disable MBTs and destroy HUMVEEs and other IFVs. However, they're very obvious. Place around corners/amidst uneven surfaces for maximum chance of success.
AMMO, AMMO! Support
Overview: LMGS, C4, Claymore mines, Mortors, and the only way to resupply everyone else. This is also the class where i nearly never use the stock weapons and instead use shotguns/pdws.
Necessity: The more the merrier. Necessary to have 1 minimum per squad just for the resupply of non-rifle/secondary ammo such as grenades, rockets, motion sensors, M320 rounds, C4, etc.
M27 IAW: Protip: Unlock the foregrip and it's basically the M16A3/A4/M416 with a larger magazine and worse hipfire. It already is like that, but the foregrip has a unique function with support weapons: it also decreases vertical recoil. Also, empty reload speed is faster than one-in-the-chamber reloads.
RPK 74M: It's ok. Symmetrical recoil is always a good thing, but otherwise is inferior in speed to M27, but not significantly so.
M249: The first belt-fed LMG is also the best belt-fed weapon compared to all the other LMGs in all but two regards: LMG CQB TTK and reload speed, both of with the PKP Pecheneg is faster. It's also very versitile, with the lowest recoil profile on a belt-fed lmg, meaning even without a foregrip it's still the most controllable. My favorite LMG; even though it bounces around a lot, it still kills faster than I expect.
Type 88: If you get it in the Physical Warfare pack, it's...okay, especially since it's available to both sides. M249 is faster/has less vertical recoil, though.
PKP Pecheneg: Too much recoil for my tastes to use without a bipod. Haven't had good luck with it, but I get killed with it all the time.
M240Bravo: Faster fire rate than the PKP, slightly less vertical recoil, slightly more (but balanced) horizontal recoil.
M60E4: A slower RPK 74M with more vertical recoil and one less shot to kill at range. Slowest fire rate of lmgs, though.
QBB-75: Havent used, but it has a tigher hipfire spread than the other lmgs. Slow fire rate to be a low-damage lmg though.
H&K MG36: Good in theory, but I've had terrible luck with it. Statistically similar to the M27 IAW but comes with a free extended mag (and 12x scope, be sure to remove that)
Resupply box: Disappears after a certain amount of ammo has been taken, compared to a Medkit's near infinite health heal capacity. Grenades take maybe 10 seconds to re-equip, but otherwise, DUMP IT WHENEVER YOU SPAWN, STOP, PASS SOMEONE, ANYTIME YOU SEE SOMEONE YOU SHOULD BE THROWING YOUR AMMO AT THEM.
C4: Situational at best, but allows you to place 5-6 before detonating. The blast radius is huge, though.
M18 Claymore Mines: You can only place 2 before they disappear. I've had people run through them without taking damage plenty of times as well. Better as a "Hey, someone's here" alert system rather than for kills with any kind of consistency.
M224 Mortor: Limited range, you pop up on the minimap, and is frequently banned. Usable, though, but requires knowledge of where the enemy is.
I'M PINNED DOWN I CAN'T MOVE! Recon
Overview: There are three kinds of recons. CQB/Surveillance, Designated Marksmen, and Bush Wookies.
Necessity for CQB/Surveillance: Depending on the map, a motion tracker in a high-frequency area can rack up the points, and putting one behind the group can alert of a flanking maneuver. Highly useful. As for CQB, it's again map dependant, but this is where shotgunners shine: they know where the enemy is and can prepare to blast their enemies to hell and back.
Necessity for Designated Marksmen: Really not a key factor in most games, but a ACOG/6-8x scope user can lock down an area for allies to move up...if anyone actually had the cajones to do so. ACOG target aquisition will equate to "quickscoping", but is easy to accomplish in this game engine, thankfully.
Necessity for Bush Wookies: Dear god, don't do this, ever. Sniper rifles arent meant to be used from 1000+ meters, even though they can. Unless you can actually make >50% of your shots and are getting 20+ kills per round, no, you are not helping your team.
SKS: THE designated marksman rifle. A lot of vertical recoil, but let it settle down and you have a nice 3-4-shot kill weapon.
SVD/MK11/M39 EMR/QBU-88: These sacrifice fire rate and have stronger recoil than the SKS for one less shot to kill at all ranges, now a 2-3 shot kill. SVD is marginally inferior to the other weapons, but their core stats (accuracy, recoil) are exactly the same. Use what you want if you chose these weapons, but protip: M39 has fastest shots, but again marginally so. MK11 has fastest reloads. QBU-88 is a slower-reloading MK11 AND has much worse suppression ability.
SV98/M40A5/L96: SV98 has slower bolt action than M40/L96. M40 has the slowest bullet travel of all sniper rifles (excluding SKS, but that's semi-auto anyway). SV98 has kickass bolt cycle, L96 is lazy.
T-UGS: If you aren't placing this somewhere, you're being a bad recon. It will light up enemies on your minimap as they run by (you should have the minimap at its bigger size when you're running around anyway so you can see where the battles are).
SOFLAM: This is how Engineers can target aerial vehicles and how they can be alerted to tanks/jeeps without actually having to aim for 5 seconds with a Javelin. Your engies will thank you for this, but it's highly situational. Only use it if you will have a ridiculously high chance of fighting vehicles.
MAV: A godsend on outdoor maps, but indoor maps can be frustrating. Basically a mobile T-UGS where you dont have to expose yourself. I think they only have 50 health, though.
All Kit Unlocks
PP-2000: I have a polish friend who loves it, but the fire rate just kills any approach for me. Why, oh why isn't it the 1000rpm gun from BC2? Also, 20 rounds hurt.
H&K UMP45: Why use this when the M1911 kills in one less shot in CQB? Also, G18 lol. Fun, but the low fire rate hurts it.
MP7: Insert Powerthurst Energy Drink Commercial but instead of Powerthurst it's this thing, here. ADS recoil is bouncy, but who cares when you have the best hipfire in the game? Slightly weaker than I care for, but hipfire + laser sight = tasty fun. 20 round mag limits it to only one kill per magazine, but it's definitely do-able.
P90: Slightly more vertical recoil and slightly less horizontal recoil than the MP7 in exchange for innate extended mags at 50 rounds. It's a level 40 unlock, but gets better when you unlock the laser sight, just like the MP7.
PDW-R: Decent accuracy, but basically inferior to everything the Assault, Support, and Engineer classes have to offer. Recon can have fun with this, though, but the recoil will kick to the right somewhat strongly. Again, 20 rounds hurt.
AS Val: Haven't unlocked it. the 900 RPM and innate suppressor look fantastic though. Hipfire is identical to assault rifles, but has pinpoint accuracy when not moving. And I MEAN pinpoint, as in 0.0 spread. Has only 20 rounds, but allegedly will get a extended magazine attachment in an upcoming patch.
PP-19: P90 with 1 more shot to kill. Use it to get your Jackhammer and move on.
870MCS: Only reason to use this is for ADS shotgunning with buckshot or flechette. Frag gets a direct-hit bonus, but it's not worth using with the low fire rate since it's easy to miss. Treat it like the SPAS12 from Modern Warfare 2 in terms of range. You'll get a lot of OHKs if you stick within 10-15 meters. Quick Update: The 870MCS only gets the spread bonus when ADS and standing still. If you're strafing back and forth, waiting for an enemy to round a corner, you're doing it wrong.
DAO-12/M1014/Saiga 12K: At the moment, statistically identical in terms of fire rate and spread. Saiga gets a box magazine, DAO-12 gets 8/12 shots, and the M1014 has the fastest reload speed and will allegedly get tighter spread in an upcoming patch.
USAS12/MK3A1 Jackhammer: The autoshotguns. Devistating with frag in CQB, otherwise they're bullethoses. Decent enough, though.
Glock17c/BerettaM9/MP443Grach: Same fire rate, same damage. If you don't want an automatic pistol or revolver and are concerned with magazine capacity, Just pick whatever looks nice. The Grach has the slowest bullet speed but is tied with the Glock17c in magazine capacity. The Glock17c is a level 4 unlock as well, so is ideal for learning the semi-auto pistols.
M1911: A slower firing semi-auto that kills in 3 shots in CQB. Worth it in my opinion, I got my first service star with pistols with the suppressed variant. If you're a veteran or part of EA's gun club, you'll get this.
Beretta 93R/Glock18: Burst fire or automatic, whichever you want. Glock18 can be suppressed. I dislike these because they become wildly inaccurate very quickly.
MP412/.44 Magnum revolvers: 50-60 in cqb, 20 at range (and allegedly going to receive a range buff). Except maybe the scoped .44, not worth taking over the semi auto pistols due to the fire rate; you can kill someone with the m1911, for example, in the same time in cqb as the .44, and you're causing the enemy to flinch with every shot, so you're basically giving them a harder time hitting you instead you having a harder time hitting the enemy (since you have to wait for your revolver's fire rate
My Final Suggestions
Assault: M16A3, AEK, or FAMAS. Medpack, sometimes M320 Frag or M26 MASS. Engineer: M4A1 or Shotgun, EOD Bot (worth the horrible steering to repair at range), launcher depends on map, but Javelin > Stinger/IGLA Support: M249 or PDW, C4 Recon: L96, Shotgun, or PDW; MAV or T-UGS depending on map, MAV > T-UGS 80% of the time if you can park it where no one can shoot it. Shotgun: 870MCS for the ADS spread advantage, DAO-12 for the magazine capacity. PDW: MP7, but hipfire it. I'd give the nod to the P90 but it takes so long to unlock, and initial use of it hasn't been promising. Honorable mention to PDW-R for accurate shots and decent power. Sidearm: M1911 Suppressed all day er'ryday.
This post took over an hour to type up. Hope it helps someone.
Nicely written post. Goes in to all the stats etc but remains measured, which is always nice. I enjoyed reading it. Impressive read on the guns considering you haven't even logged enough hours to unlock everything.
I greatly prefer the P90 for the free capacity. It also means you get two attachments, whereas the MP7 only gets one because of the the forced extended mags. If you're going to wreak havoc at close range, the silencer + laser combo is just beautiful. And I'm not a huge fan of the 1911. I liked it better when it had a ranged damage advantage, like in BC2. Close range is always debatable since the other semi-autos can spam shots quite reliably. The 1911 does have the nicest reload animation though. And on that subject, I think the revolvers are just too weak at range. Their close range damage means nothing (outside of headshots) when they fire so slow, and you'll never manage to get 5 shots at range before the enemy kills you, or just runs away. And just looking at the Rex's velocity makes me laugh.
People complain about the fire rate cap on the M1911, but i've yet to click that fast. I've even checked how fast i can click on a click-per-minute program online, and i get around 318 every time, which is less than the M1911 cap.
People complain about the fire rate cap on the M1911, but i've yet to click that fast. I've even checked how fast i can click on a click-per-minute program online, and i get around 318 every time, which is less than the M1911 cap.
Now you got me curious. I averaged between 530-570. I thought it would be a little higher, but eh. Granted, I could probably only manage 400-ish while maintaining a target. I can't wait until they fix the semi-autos now. I've never come close to that in BF3, since every time I try, it just won't put out as much as I click.
Also, I think I just severely cut my mouse's lifespan in the past few minutes.
I made an important change to the 870MCS's entry in my post. It only gets a spread advantage if you're ADS'ing and NOT MOVING.
Pretty pointless in my opinion. A bonus like that would only matter with buckshot/flechette, and if you're using them, standing still is not something you should be doing. I don't see why they can't give us a bonus when moving too, since if you're ADS, you aren't moving quickly anyway. And let's be honest, most players never ADS with shotguns anyway.
Exactly my point. While you DO get a decently significant bonus to spread when ADS'ing compared to hipfire, it's still pretty bad...and then there's the entire concept of using a laser sight to reduce the 1.5/2.0 spread to 1.0/1.33r compared to ADS 0.1-0.6/1.2 spread.
However, when standing still and ADS'ing, they all have a max spread of 2.0, even while firing a bunch.
Also, they gain .6 spread per shot if you dont let the spread lessen (meaning waiting for the delay after shooting for the spread to recover...Read that somewhere. Someone care to restate the spread recovery mechanic?) is decently significant since you're likely to be shooting at the shotguns' maximum fire rate frequently.
They kick butt, sure, but the game's mechanics seem nothing but bad news for them.
in this case dens chart deviates from symtecs chart. and i somehow think dens chart is the correct one. some quick testing with decalls on the wall show the spread of the 870 to be substantially smaller than that of semiauto shotguns, even when not ADSing and on the move.
Don't shotguns have a fixed spread? I thought moving, jumping etc only increased the spread of where your actual shot goes
I noticed that when jumping and shooting with the 870 the spread wasn't wider, but it was far from the centre of the screen. Maybe it was just my imagination though
SUPER QUICK EDIT: i'm in an empty server right now and I can confirm. Your spread never changes. It's only the position of your spread. ADSing is not worth it, but just don't jump around cause that WILL screw your aim over
Last Edit: Jan 22, 2012 6:58:18 GMT -5 by tiesieman
While we're on the subject of shotguns...what's up with shotgun accuracy?
When I first started playing BF3, I used 870 and M1014 a bunch with nothing but buckshot and flechette. After I got my 100 kills with each, they were <20%. I stopped with shotguns for a while, then got 100 kills all at once for SAIGA and DAO. I used every ammo type on both a bit, yet they ranged anywhere from 30-60%. With 870/M1014, I always made sure to make every shot count, and I'm not a bad shot at all. With the SAIGA/DAO, I just spammed shots all over the place. It boggles my mind.
Does buckshot/flechette accuracy work with a percentage of pellets that hit? If so, I guess I can see why my accuracy is so much less Although it doesn't help that now that I'm finally using the USAS, I have 90% accuracy using nothing but buckshot/flechette. I know hitting multiple enemies can probably boost the number, but it honestly doesn't happen often. And my MASS has over 100%, yet I use it the same as I'd use my 870. It just really bothers me to see my other shotguns so low in comparison.
Post by rudybojangles on Jan 23, 2012 15:28:18 GMT -5
I believe that if 1 pellet hits one person or 12 hit one person, it counts as a hit.
Also, if one shot produces 12 pellets, 6 that hit one enemy and 6 that hit another, it's 2 hits/one shot. Thus, with scattershot, you can have greater than 100% accuracy, and accuracy is inflated by multi-hits.